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pretre wrote:I never said it was good writing. I just think that the constant 'OMG WARD IS THE DEVILS' derp is ridiculous. It's a freakin' codex, it isn't going to be War and Peace.

I do not think anyone really expects something of that quality, but then again, I do not think anyone expected the quality of the pieces referenced, either.

That any of it needs to be defended/excuses/rationalized/explained/ignored as often as it is certainly mades me think it was not well done.

Then I read the pieces and agreed.

pretre wrote:@Lara: I can't believe you didn't like the LotR movies. Our civilised conversation is over.

Like them? Like? I'm not joking about the actual tears, you know.

It was a key lesson for me in life. When something is that much of SRS BIZNESS to you, you are going to hate anyone else's vision of it. I refuse to watch Mamma Mia for that reason. (Yes, Abba are also SRS BIZNESS to me. And Star Trek: Nemesis is noncanon to me.)

There were jokes in it. No jokes in my Tolkien. And Legolas was BLOND. (Please, for the love of the Emperor, do not get me started on why that riles me so)

The weird thing is, Jackson's Heavenly Creatures is an all time favourite of mine.

Er. Am I derailing the thread here? Shall I write a quick one-shot fanfic about a Culexus and a wet-behind-the-ears Guardswoman recruit? I can do it in the style of Matt Ward?

kirsanth wrote:I do not think anyone really expects something of that quality, but then again, I do not think anyone expected the quality of the pieces referenced, either.

That any of it needs to be defended/excuses/rationalized/explained/ignored as often as it is certainly mades me think it was not well done.

Then I read the pieces and agreed.

Name a codex that hasn't been the source of great controversy and had to be defended/excused/rationalized/ignored and I'll show you a failed one. Every codex has had this happen because, as you said earlier, it is a discussion board and that is what you do. I'd be more worried if there was no discussion.

Heck, on the internet controversy is success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just prefer if we moved on to a new subject because the Ward is da ebils one is a little overdone.

pretre wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I do not think anyone really expects something of that quality, but then again, I do not think anyone expected the quality of the pieces referenced, either.

That any of it needs to be defended/excuses/rationalized/explained/ignored as often as it is certainly mades me think it was not well done.

Then I read the pieces and agreed.

Name a codex that hasn't been the source of great controversy and had to be defended/excused/rationalized/ignored and I'll show you a failed one. Every codex has had this happen because, as you said earlier, it is a discussion board and that is what you do. I'd be more worried if there was no discussion.

Heck, on the internet controversy is success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just prefer if we moved on to a new subject because the Ward is da ebils one is a little overdone.

Craftworld Eldar

Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

I think EVERY GW author should carefully contemplate what they are including in a book, not just Ward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, I agree.

Goddard wrote:

Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

I think EVERY GW author should carefully contemplate what they are including in a book, not just Ward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, I agree.

Oh, agreed re other authors. I just singled him out as he does seem to receive the lion's share of the, er, constructive feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

trewbarton wrote:Craftworld Eldar

My memory isn't quite all there at present; please help. Is this the Codex that allowed the Phil Kelly Ulthwe build of doom? I remember there being a large amount of internet squealing about that build at the time.

trewbarton wrote:
Craftworld Eldar

Good try:

Date: 2000/06/21
Subject: Re: Craftworld Eldar Codex Review
Paul Perry (mad...@uswest.net) wrote:

: Ok,
: I have had 4 days to go through it, overall it greatly changes the balance
: of the army lists.
: Features:
: Full rules and new army lists for the following craftworlds: Iyanden,
: Saim-Hann, Alaitoc, Biel-Tan and Ulthwe'.
:
Should have known GW couldn't stick to balanced armies and games for too
long... I just find this new Craftworld Eldar book to be pretty silly,
because it pretty much makes legal all the armies that the army building
system was designed to limit... Of course it is GW and it is 40k, so I
guess I shouldn't be *too* surprised...





Newsgroups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer
From: ezekiel4...@aol.comnospam (Borderline fanboy)
Date: 2000/06/21
Subject: bs stats ( Codex Craftworld Eldar rant )
You know, everytime a new codex comes out we get the same crap about kill
ratios and percentages. " Swordwind army sucks because your Dark Reapers won't
last long against 4 hvy bolters because........." and so on.
For feths sake, do you all just line your troops up 24" away from one another
on an open board and shoot at each other?
Let's just start rolling marbles. As long as they are GW marbles, of course.


http://groups.google.com/groups/search?safe=on&q=codex+craftworld+eldar&btnG=Search&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2000&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2001&as_drrb=b&sitesearch=

My main annoyance with the whole Bloodtide thing is just my continued frustration with the way that GW tends to handle Sisters of Battle. While the SPESS MEHREENS are the unstoppable juggernauts that kill everything and come away without a scratch, it seems like every time that the Sisters appear in the fluff they're being annihilated, corrupted, massacred, or betrayed. The whole Bloodtide thing is just the nail in the coffin. They can't even get a break from their own allies. And it's not even a mercy kill or a sacrifice on the Sisters' part. It's outright murder. The Grey Knights need a talisman to protect them from the Bloodtide, so they murder a bunch of their own supposed allies to get one.

Honestly, if I'd been writing that bit of fluff, I'd have kept everything up until that point, then perhaps said something like, "Seeing the failure of the Sisters of Battle, the Grey Knights determine that a talisman of purity is required to protect them from the Bloodtide. Brother Laertes is chosen by the drawing of lots, and dies to a single stroke by Brother Captain Cristof's Nemesis Force Weapon. The remaining Grey Knights mix the innocent blood thus spilled with blessed oils and use it to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption. To this day, the surviving members of that squad wear red gauntlets upon their right hands to remind themselves that Brother Laertes' blood fights on in their own sword arms."

Yes, yes, the Sisters are much put upon.

I am also a sisters player and have been since Codex: Chapter Approved. That is kind of their thing and always has been; they are the martyrs and the holy/pure ones.

When it comes down to it though, 1 GK is worth a lot more than any number of sisters of battle. Read the induction process and what it takes to make one GK. A little bit harder than the sisters process. Add to that the fact that all those sisters are going to die in a couple minutes when the Bloodtide goes off and I'd go choppy choppy too.

themocaw wrote:it seems like every time that the Sisters appear in the fluff they're being annihilated, corrupted, massacred, or betrayed

This I totally agree with. Whilst I am joyful that Phil Kelly is rumoured to be working on our dear Sisters, part of me did want to see what a Sister special character by Mat Ward would be like. I figured she probably wouldn't be getting massacred or betrayed any time soon.

Still, on the upside, if the theory of Codex escalation holds true, the girls are going to be enormous badasses. With plastic models. Which I will buy by the armload.

Oh and the Bloodtide has been around for a bit, going back to the 5th ed rulebook. Unfortunately named, but they can't giggle proof everything.

The BA-Necron Brofist is up there.
The new GK massacre of the SoB is too, as is Goto's IG-Termie bromance, Termies flipping off of rhinos, and the magical rhino that became a land raider then a razorback.

5 bucks C.S. Goto and Matt Ward are the same dude.

pretre wrote: they are the martyrs

No! No more martyrdom! We want... a really big tank! With really big weapons! And more flamers! For free!

Lara wrote:

pretre wrote: they are the martyrs

No! No more martyrdom! We want... a really big tank! With really big weapons! And more flamers! For free!

(Sarcasm, but scarily what I see a lot of the time.)

I do not want femmarines. No thank you.

Martyrdom, the ecclesiarchy and the faux-catholicism are what make the sisters unique. I would like to keep it or at least something else that makes us more than uparmored and downgunned guard or marines with mammaries.

pretre wrote:Martyrdom, the ecclesiarchy and the faux-catholicism are what make the sisters unique. I would like to keep it or at least something else that makes us more than uparmored and downgunned guard or marines with mammaries.

Faith Points? To stay, or to go?

Better start a new thread, Lara. We're heading right off the rails.

pretre wrote:I am also a sisters player and have been since Codex: Chapter Approved. That is kind of their thing and always has been; they are the martyrs and the holy/pure ones.

The problem is that the writers of the fluff confuse martyrdom with victimization. Victimization is what other people do to you. Martyrdom is a choice you make yourself. Hell, the entire Bloodtide thing could be solved if the Sisters, realizing what's going on, throw themselves on their own swords to buy the Grey Knights a chance, and the GKs at least make some remembrance of their sacrifice.

themocaw wrote:
The problem is that the writers of the fluff confuse martyrdom with victimization. Victimization is what other people do to you. Martyrdom is a choice you make yourself. Hell, the entire Bloodtide thing could be solved if the Sisters, realizing what's going on, throw themselves on their own swords to buy the Grey Knights a chance, and the GKs at least make some remembrance of their sacrifice.

Sure, but the passage is specifically light on detail. For all you know, they did throw themselves on the GK's blades. But it is a blurb on the Date / Incident page. Meant to be just that, a flavorful blurb. People read into it like it is a lost passage from the bible. You are meant to go to other material to fill in the gaps. Just like when it said 'Stern defeats the red talon' in one sentence. Was that all the happened? Of course not.

apart from anything matt ward writes I have never been happy with calgar strangling an avatar...why does a daemon need to breath like a human being?

Oh and just so we have it:

"Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption"

pretre wrote:. . . the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle.

This is the line that makes me cringe. The whole thrust of the line implies that all action and decisions were made by the Grey Knights. Nothing in there about assent or consultation on the part of the Sisters. The FIRST thing the Grey Knights do is turn THEIR blades on the surviving Sisters of Battle.

So yeah, long story short: I think this is the worst piece of fluff that GW has ever written. It turns the Grey Knights from grim soldiers who do what they must because only they can, to outright murderers who coldly murder their own allies without a second thought, simply because they feel it is necessary.

themocaw wrote:

pretre wrote:. . . the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle.

So yeah, long story short: I think this is the worst piece of fluff that GW has ever written. It turns the Grey Knights from grim soldiers who do what they must because only they can, to outright murderers who coldly murder their own allies without a second thought, simply because they feel it is necessary.

I think the difference between us is that I think the GK are still grim soldiers who do what they must and have clarity of purpose and you don't.

The reason the 'the first act' doesn't bother me is because I know they wouldn't do it if it wasn't necessary. You don't have that faith in the GK's. They quickly assess the situation with decades of training and experience and know that they have no choice. No reason to wring their hands over it or be sentimental; they just do it.

Again, the fluff isn't bad, you just don't like how it portrays the GK and their actions. I don't like it either, but I understand why it is necessary. The point being made is that nothing is too much to stop Daemons as is made numerous times in the book with much worse examples of blatant death and destruction. People just don't like it in this case because it happens to involve SOB.

I think we can actually prove that there is worse fluff (Goto, etc) that is more poorly written (what about that DA story where they land on a place that might as well be called ColdWarEarth).

Stella Cadente wrote:apart from anything matt ward writes I have never been happy with calgar strangling an avatar...why does a daemon need to breath like a human being?

Those are two different problems. Most daemons do need to breathe. Once they're in real space, they have real biology.

Of course, the Avatar does not.

I think what really pisses me off most at the moment is the whole thing with the GK Grand Master carving something into Mortarion's heart.

Not just because I don't see how a Grey Knight could be so powerful.

Not just because I play Death Guard and build myself a Mortarion model.

But mostly because they do it in like one friggin'n line of text!!! "And then Daigo carved the name in Mortarion's heart."

...

WHAT?! HOW?! WITH WHAT?! WHY DID NOBODY RIP HIS HEAD OFF FOR THAT ONE?!

The Necron/BA temporary truce thing only seems stupid to people who haven't read the fluff sections of the full 5th edition rulebook. Necrons are very different in modern canon than the way that they were once portrayed.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I think what really pisses me off most at the moment is the whole thing with the GK Grand Master carving something into Mortarion's heart.

Not just because I don't see how a Grey Knight could be so powerful.

Not just because I play Death Guard and build myself a Mortarion model.

But mostly because they do it in like one friggin'n line of text!!! "And then Daigo carved the name in Mortarion's heart."

...

WHAT?! HOW?! WITH WHAT?! WHY DID NOBODY RIP HIS HEAD OFF FOR THAT ONE?!

Mortarion's latest physical body was already dead when that happened. That's how.

Goddard wrote:The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

It only takes a paragraph to express an idea that is completely at odds with how most people think of Space Marines as adherents to the Imperial ideology. What it does say is that they could not stomach fighting their recent allies, this is what many have a problem with. I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting. This isn't a matter of honor it's a matter of preserving the Imperium of Man which the crons are all about wrecking, no self respecting Astartes would let them go about their business.

Grey Templar wrote:at least the GKs killing the SoB made some sense

Wait, what? Lol.

Goddard wrote:The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

I don't really hate the BA Necron Bromance all that much (however, much of that could be attributed to how much I love the associated Image Macro that's been floating around).

I think, if anything, they shouldn't have said the BA "would feel bad" for attacking their erstwhile allies; I think they should of just said that they should've decided the casualites would be too high to fight anymore, and just left for tactical reasons, not out of robo-kindness.

Deep Throat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:at least the GKs killing the SoB made some sense

Wait, what? Lol.

read the whole paragraph and the entire codex.


their actions fit with the fluff of GKs doing ANYTHING to stop the forces of chaos.