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Grey Templar wrote:read the whole paragraph and the entire codex.

VERY NO!!!!

Anything but that!




Editing to add:
Aww, way less fun on a new page.

Gridge wrote: I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting.

Except that's Imperial dogma and the Space Marines are separate from that. They don't worship the Emperor as a god either, and the Imperium lets them get away with that.

The whole old ones thing really annoys me.

Why do they feel the need to have some god like beings going around creating races. Whats wrong with evolution that we already know took place.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

Whats wrong with all powerful being(s)?

Daston wrote:The whole old ones thing really annoys me.

Why do they feel the need to have some god like beings going around creating races. Whats wrong with evolution that we already know took place.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

my explanation: Rick Priestly is a science-hating Creationist.

Prove me wrong.

Potato_God wrote:

Daston wrote:The whole old ones thing really annoys me.

Why do they feel the need to have some god like beings going around creating races. Whats wrong with evolution that we already know took place.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

my explanation: Rick Priestly is a science-hating Creationist.

Prove me wrong.

He hates competitiveness so he must be.

Crowe's fluff is pretty bad. I mean like HAI GUYZ THIS IZ MY SPESHUL GUY BUT HE'S TOTALLY NOT ME!!! LISTEN TO HOW HE CAN BEAT EVERYONE UP! bad.

Gridge wrote:

Goddard wrote:The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

It only takes a paragraph to express an idea that is completely at odds with how most people think of Space Marines as adherents to the Imperial ideology. What it does say is that they could not stomach fighting their recent allies, this is what many have a problem with. I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting. This isn't a matter of honor it's a matter of preserving the Imperium of Man which the crons are all about wrecking, no self respecting Astartes would let them go about their business.

Care to paraphrase this fluff for those without the hardcover?

The entirety of the Sons of Malice fluff.

Yes, I still consider Sons of Malice to be worse fluff even than Matt Ward's BA and GK fluff failures.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gridge wrote: I can understand the Blood Angels withdrawing from a hopeless fight, but feeling anything other than hatred for the wretched xenos is just not in keeping with the feel of the setting.

Except that's Imperial dogma and the Space Marines are separate from that. They don't worship the Emperor as a god either, and the Imperium lets them get away with that.

The attitude towards the Emperor varies a bit chapter to chapter but the hatred for xenos, to my knowledge, is consistent with the rest of the Imperium (I haven't read the SW codex but I'm assuming their is nothing in there along these lines). I am aware, however, that temporary alliances have been forged from time to time with Eldar but they seem to be the exception to the rule (even though these seem to always end in blood with some marine going on about how they never should have trusted the treacherous xenos). Basically, it is the job of the marines to battle the enemies of the Imperium of Man, and the xenos are the enemy.

I also hate the whole reason for Horus turning to Chaos; a result of him being stabbed by a magic sword. The whole reason for the destruction of the Emperor and his armies, the creation of the entire setting of the 40k universe, and ultimately the destruction of the human race. And why did it happen? Because 'a wizard did it'. I can make a much more in depth reason of why I think this is the biggest failing in GW's history of writing background, but I don't want to bore people with it (and kill the thread, which inevitably happens )

this is Cheese!

The first 2 HH books were awesome! how can you say that?
It was a great idea and DAN ABBNET IS THE BEST (better than Ward, anyway) They made it a great book.

Urien_Rakarth wrote:The first 2 HH books were awesome! how can you say that?

they did seem to absorb more when used as toilet paper, so they were the best of an awful series for that alone.

HAving just read them, i will say this :

Lowest moment : Draigo.

Second lowest moment : Blood angels/necron bromance.


As a chaos Fanboy (im not afriad to admit It ) I find Draigo utterly insulting. He carved someones name on MORTARION'S heart? He killed a daemon prince when he was a new recruit? good lord, thats just the beginning, BEFORE he went into the warp. Draigo is just utterly ridiculous. to me, i see him as a massive middle finger to chaos players

Edit: i havent read the whole thread yet

Melissia wrote:The entirety of the Sons of Malice fluff.

Yes, I still consider Sons of Malice to be worse fluff even than Matt Ward's BA and GK fluff failures.

I just read what little fluff is on lexicanum, and I will now stand next to Melissia and wave the banner of 'There IS worse out there!'

I honestly though that it MUST be some sort of fan-fluff that a 13yr old came up with to match his custom chapter, until I saw it was referenced from index astartes...

As for me, the lowest moment in the 40K fluff is that even the people who design the damn game cannot agree on a consistent set of sizes for titans!

Right, if Sons of Malice fluff was written on Dakka instead of on GW, it'd be ridiculed as villain sue.

I just popped over to Lexicanum and I'm not sure what's so bad about Sons of Malice.

They're a space marine chapter who responded violently to an attack by an inquisitor and went renegade because of it.

Now that they are renegades, they worship a smaller entity of chaos and hold trials in the warp occasionally to root out the strongest and entomb them for a later fight.

What's so sue-ish about that?

The writer sent a large force of Celestians at the chapter-- the best Sisters have to offer, whom in tabletop are more skilled at close combat than vanguard veterans and are themselves literally the BEST non-Astartes soldiers in the Imperium bar none-- and had them utterly decimated by the chapter without causing any damage.

well space marines are supposedly invincibibibibbile! almost as invicibbibly! as Grey Knights!

Melissia wrote:The writer sent a large force of Celestians at the chapter-- the best Sisters have to offer, whom in tabletop are more skilled at close combat than vanguard veterans

Is this from the RPG? Because the 40k rules and previous fluff do not support this statement. Which book, so I can try to find it.

and are themselves literally the BEST non-Astartes soldiers in the Imperium bar none

Again, not sure where this comes from. Is this Dark Heresy stuff that has given the Celestians such an upgrade? I'm checking my C: WH and C: SOB (2nd) and while it says Celestians are the best of the order, it doesn't say any of what you are.

-- and had them utterly decimated by the chapter without causing any damage.

They attacked a chapter of space marines. Even by the expanded fluff you are using above, they are the best non-astartes troops, attacking Astartes who are in full company strength. There also isn't any detail of losses from either side, but one would assume there were some. It says the Celestians were defeated. Did you expect they would win?

A large force of Celestians would be pretty few, based on previous fluff and sizes of Orders from C: WH and C: SOB.

I'm looking for the Index Astartes the fluff comes from right now to see if there is more detail from the Lexicanum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

redeyed wrote:well space marines are supposedly invincibibibibbile! almost as invicibbibly! as Grey Knights!

Thanks for your charming addition to the conversation, but can we keep the discussion to an actual discussion level rather than the standard silly hyperbole and internet dribble?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it:

Index Astartes IV - Rogue Sons wrote:Pietas mobilized a strike force of Adepta Sororitas Celestians, who deployed from orbit aboard their drop pods, making planetfall in the midst of the company at the height of the celebrations. The strike force found Kathal and his company a horde of fevered maniacs, having worked themselves into a state of animalistic barbarity over the course of their celebrations. Kathal's armour was splattered in gore, and blood ran from his mouth as he presided over the ceremony. Kathal and his brethren fell upon the strike force with a savagery the Inquisitor was utterly unprepared for.

The Celestians fought bravely, but their numbers were too few, and their faith, though strong, could not overcome the sheer fury of Kathal and his men. By the light of burning torches, Kathal cornered the Inquisitor, dragging her before his altar where she was ritually sacrificed. This heinous deed earned the Sons of Malice excommunication, and to this day they reside within the Eye of Terror, where they wage a hate-fuelled war against any they encounter, be they servants of the Imperium, or indeed, other followers of Chaos.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what part of that says that the Celestians were defeated without injury or were decimated without causing damage?

In fact, it says they did well for themselves but were outnumbered and the marines were in the depths of their cannabilistic fury. The original article largely lays the loss at the Inquisitor's feet for underestimating the marines.


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Oh yeah, here's where I found it: http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_renegades.html

lol I can see one cant make a joke without psuedo-intellectual responses, I'll be sure to keep it factual next time Its just so boring to constantly read how indestructible the power-armour clad legions are!!


edit:
mind you thinking about it, from what I have read on le forums recently I can understand the reply as alot of people do say that kind of thing far often sooo I will make sure to keep it factual next time for real!

pretre wrote:Which book, so I can try to find it.

C:WH.

A Celestian sister superior hits a furioso dreadnought on a 3+ with her eviscerator-- how many other units can claim that? On the charge, she stands a good chance of having all three attacks hit, and even destroying it because of the extra d6 penetration granted by the weapon (giving it 6+2d6 penetration, a better than average chance of glancing or penetrating with each hit). All Celestians hit infantry and walkers on a 3+ unless they would do better. This makes them, in terms of raw skill, BETTER than almost all non-HQ units in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition.

The main reason they suffer is because C:WH gives them only a bolter as basic weapons-- if they had pistol and CCW or if Sarissas didn't suck and applied to the whole squad, they'd be taken far more than they are right now.

As for them being the best human soldiers in the Imperium bar none, that's hardly disputable. Stormtroopers are the best non-Sororitas soldiers in the Imperium. Basic Battle Sisters are equal to Stormtroopers in terms of training, discipline and skill (with Stormtroopers of course having superior spec-ops ability), and superior to them in equipment and motivation. Seraphim are even better than this, pushing human skill and agility in power armor to Astartes level (superior, in fact, in terms of agility). And Celestians are better, in terms of raw skill, than Seraphim-- beyond the level of the typical Astartes.

I wonder if Sarissas will be a standard upgrade in the rumoured new codex. With a little boost theyd be excellent and work in with the fluff also.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Which book, so I can try to find it.

C:WH.

A Celestian sister superior hits a furioso dreadnought on a 3+ with her eviscerator-- how many other units can claim that? On the charge, she stands a good chance of having all three attacks hit, and even destroying it because of the extra d6 penetration granted by the weapon (giving it 6+2d6 penetration, a better than average chance of glancing or penetrating with each hit). All Celestians hit infantry and walkers on a 3+ unless they would do better. This makes them, in terms of raw skill, BETTER than almost all non-HQ units in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition.

That's reaching. They have holy hatred, which has nothing to do with skill. Their WS is the same as most units WS4, not better than VV. According to their entry 'their burning hatred makes them formidable foes in combat' not 'their superior skill in close combat'. Is a unit with a Chaplain attached magically now 'more skillful then almost every non-HQ unit in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition' fluff-wise or do they just have someone along that gives them a little added hate?

The main reason they suffer is because C:WH gives them only a bolter as basic weapons-- if they had pistol and CCW or if Sarissas didn't suck and applied to the whole squad, they'd be taken far more than they are right now.

Far more than they are now, as in +1 attack. They would still be hitting on 3's and wounding on 5's while getting hit on 4's and wounded on 3's against tac marines. Not the best place to be.

As for them being the best human soldiers in the Imperium bar none, that's hardly disputable. Stormtroopers are the best non-Sororitas soldiers in the Imperium. Basic Battle Sisters are equal to Stormtroopers in terms of training, discipline and skill (with Stormtroopers of course having superior spec-ops ability), and superior to them in equipment and motivation. Seraphim are even better than this, pushing human skill and agility in power armor to Astartes level (superior, in fact, in terms of agility). And Celestians are better, in terms of raw skill, than Seraphim-- beyond the level of the typical Astartes.

Okay, I won't argue the first part anymore, they are better than basic guard and stormtroopers for basic statline. I will argue the last sentence. Again, same WS as Seraphim, they just hate more. Are Seraphim better marksmen than all Astartes because they have twin-linked weapons at BS4?

All this being said, am I surprised that a perfectly normal thread is getting dragged into Sister minutae by Melissia?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, come to think of it, under your argument, Celestians are the most skilled hand-to-hand experts in the game, barring individuals with Wolf-tooth Necklaces. Unlike those silly Bloodthirsters with their WS10, Celestians always hit on 3's.

That's kind of out there.

Meh, fething strawman arguments. Not touching that with a twenty meter nemesis force weapon.

Probably best to ignore my whole argument and abandon your point based on one part of what I said.


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Or to remove the strawman.

How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

How does dropping far too few Celestians into a whole Company of marines who were just whipped into a religious fervor and then having them lose make the Sons of Malice villain-sues?

pretre wrote:How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

Because they hit more often than WS4 units while being hit the same amount in return.

And yes, I indeed would argue that Chaplains inspire their battle-brothers to greater feats of skill, the same as priests do to Guard and Sisters.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

Because they hit more often than WS4 units while being hit the same amount in return.

They also hit WS10 units more often than WS10 models/characters do. Are they more skillfull than WS10 models/characters?

And yes, I indeed would argue that Chaplains inspire their battle-brothers to greater feats of skill, the same as priests do to Guard and Sisters.

Except priests (just like Celestians) do not embody skill, they imbue rage (see the Priest entry). Arguably, Chaplains inspire dedication (see the last paragraph of their entry in C: SM) and again not skill.

And way to skip my second point (the one that was on topic)...

How does dropping in a fall-too small force of elite troops into a large force of incensed (and by your other argument, more skillful, since they have been imbued with rage) more-elite troops and that smaller force losing make the larger force villain sues?

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:How does Holy Hatred make Celestians the most skillfull CC in the Imperium?

Because they hit more often than WS4 units while being hit the same amount in return.

Not more than Paladins. Or any Grey Knight against Daemons. Or any Wolf Guard with a necklace. Or any Black Templar. I can keep going if you want.

DarknessEternal wrote:Not more than Paladins. Or any Grey Knight against Daemons. Or any Wolf Guard with a necklace. Or any Black Templar. I can keep going if you want.

Melissia wrote:This makes them, in terms of raw skill, BETTER than almost all non-HQ units in every Astartes book produced in fifth edition.

Meh, feth it. This conversation is getting nonsensical and trollish.

Melissia wrote:Meh, F* it. This conversation is getting nonsensical and trollish.

Or, like any M argument, you realized that yours didn't hold merit so only attacked the parts you could win against.

One more time, since this is on topic to the thread:

How does dropping in a far too small force of elite troops into a large force of incensed, more elite troops and that smaller force losing make the larger force villain sues?