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BS 4 on Firewarriors? No way, thats like having 12 marines all with Heavy Bolters. And stubborn? Only if their's an ethereal .

I do like the idea of adding special weapons to the squad, but then it seems like they become wanna be marines.

Plus, those weapons are BIG. Weapons teams might be a better solution to this, or a 6" range assault fusion blaster, a heavy 2 missile pod, and a heavy 2-4 burst cannon. Or maybe just no burst and missile pod at all like someone suggested before.

Roger wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:I know that your army isn't that great ANY MORE, but my point is that the proposed rules should be things like bringing the BS up to 4, lowering some of the points costs, changing up some wargear. NOT giving them CC buffs. That's stupid. The point of the Tau is that they are good at shooting. If you want to fix them, make shooting better, don't make their CC better, that's just dumb.

Again I ask, what is different?

With the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs have a chance to flee combat>You're possibly left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

Without the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs crumple in the first round of combat>FWs lose combat>You sweeping advance>You're left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

possible 24 extra shots?

10 Fire Warriors (usual amount I run, I rarely see 12, 6-8 is more common) Rapid-Firing at MEQ:
20 Shots
10 Hits
6.67 wounds
2.2211 Dead MEQs (rounding to 2)

2 dead marines is nothing (it rarely even happens this way, I don't think i've killed any marines through FW shooting since I started playing Tau), and there's also any pistol shots/assault weapons before the charge to take into account,a nd losses earlier in the game, which makes this scenario rare.

Show me a competative Tau army that has more than 1 squad of 12 FWs, mine has 3 squads of 10 and even that's pushing the boundaries of what and what isn't a liability (considering cutting them to 6 each for two more fireknives, as my crisis suits do more than my FWs),

9/10 you will not face a scenario where 12 FWs are rapid-firing you.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Roger wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:I know that your army isn't that great ANY MORE, but my point is that the proposed rules should be things like bringing the BS up to 4, lowering some of the points costs, changing up some wargear. NOT giving them CC buffs. That's stupid. The point of the Tau is that they are good at shooting. If you want to fix them, make shooting better, don't make their CC better, that's just dumb.

Again I ask, what is different?

With the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs have a chance to flee combat>You're possibly left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

Without the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs crumple in the first round of combat>FWs lose combat>You sweeping advance>You're left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

possible 24 extra shots?

10 Fire Warriors (usual amount I run, I rarely see 12, 6-8 is more common) Rapid-Firing at MEQ:
20 Shots
10 Hits
6.67 wounds
2.2211 Dead MEQs (rounding to 2)

2 dead marines is nothing (it rarely even happens this way, I don't think i've killed any marines through FW shooting since I started playing Tau), and there's also any pistol shots/assault weapons before the charge to take into account,a nd losses earlier in the game, which makes this scenario rare.

Show me a competative Tau army that has more than 1 squad of 12 FWs, mine has 3 squads of 10 and even that's pushing the boundaries of what and what isn't a liability (considering cutting them to 6 each for two more fireknives, as my crisis suits do more than my FWs),

9/10 you will not face a scenario where 12 FWs are rapid-firing you.

It's funny you mentioned that... 10/10 of my games against Tau have 12 FW in a squad... Up to 2-3 squads of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

sluggaslugga wrote:What about regular tau Fire Warriors, but with jump packs/teleporters? (teleporters work like jump packs, but might be more fluffy.)

Tau walkers?

Heavy weapon drones?

Stealth for all Tau?

Shooting in CC? (I'm guessing that Tau use firearms in CC... Ever seen the movie called Matrix?)

Walkers would detract from the current theme of maneuverability that the Tau are supposed to have.

Heavy weapon drones, while fluffly, would make them too much like Eldar weapons platforms.

A stealth drone wouldn't be a bad idea and would be fluffy but wouldn't help them vs. all the cc assaulty armies out there.

Shooting in CC is a bad idea IMO. I don't think Tau doctrine would allow for calling in fire on friendly targets.

Some time ago, in a similar thread, someone said something along the lines of making the pulse grenade slow down enemies as they become disoriented in the charge so that they would count as moving through difficult terrain to assault (roll a d6 for movement). That wouldn't be bad and since your opponent would know you have them, they could plan their assaults appropriately which might give the firewarriors another turn of shooting before they're shredded in cc.

The pulse grenades are a good idea.
Btw... I meant shooting IN close combat, not shooting INTO CC.

It's funny you mentioned that... 10/10 of my games against Tau have 12 FW in a squad... Up to 2-3 squads of them.

How many points/what is your record? At 1500pts you could shave those FWs down to 6-men each and get 3 more fireknife battlesuits which would be far more cost-effective.

Note that I did say 'competative' lists, and many of the Tau veterans I see play no more than one or two FW squads of 6 (due to the necessity of having 1 FW squad in a Tau army) and the rest of the troops filled with kroot simply because FWs need markerlights (which are better spent on your railguns/battlesuits) and they crumple in combat; Kroot can outflank, have bolters with worse AP, have the same BS as a Fire Warrior and are better in combat. The only reason I use FWs is because I dislike kroot models-wise.

Avatar 720 wrote:

It's funny you mentioned that... 10/10 of my games against Tau have 12 FW in a squad... Up to 2-3 squads of them.

How many points/what is your record? At 1500pts you could shave those FWs down to 6-men each and get 3 more fireknife battlesuits which would be far more cost-effective.

Note that I did say 'competative' lists, and many of the Tau veterans I see play no more than one or two FW squads of 6 (due to the necessity of having 1 FW squad in a Tau army) and the rest of the troops filled with kroot simply because FWs need markerlights (which are better spent on your railguns/battlesuits) and they crumple in combat; Kroot can outflank, have bolters with worse AP, have the same BS as a Fire Warrior and are better in combat. The only reason I use FWs is because I dislike kroot models-wise.

My record? 12FW 500pts
My friends record: 36FW 1500pts or 18FW 750pts

Record as in Wins/Draws/Losses.

Wins: 10/10... (against tau)
Wins: 3/5, Losses 1/5, Ties 1/5... (with tau)

Commisar Von Humps wrote:BS 4 on Firewarriors? No way, thats like having 12 marines all with Heavy Bolters.

Except that the FWs would be T3, S3, WS2, LD 7 with a 4+ save.

So... nothing like having 12 marines with Heavy Bolters. Nothing like them at all.

ObiFett wrote:

Commisar Von Humps wrote:BS 4 on Firewarriors? No way, thats like having 12 marines all with Heavy Bolters.

Except that the FWs would be T3, S3, WS2, LD 7 with a 4+ save.

So... nothing like having 12 marines with Heavy Bolters. Nothing like them at all.

Also, 1 or 2 shots with AP5 is much worse than 3 shots with AP4

I too was against BS4 fire warriors but think about it.

12 Fire warriors with pulse rifles 120 pts. 12 S5 AP5 shots.

6 Long fangs with 5 heavy bolters 115 pts. 15 S5 AP4 shots at BS 4 and T4 in AP 3 armor to boot.

I truely think the more GW "fixes" things with a new codex, it breaks the viability of 5 to 8 other codexes.

DAaddict wrote:I too was against BS4 fire warriors but think about it.

12 Fire warriors with pulse rifles 120 pts. 12 S5 AP5 shots.

6 Long fangs with 5 heavy bolters 115 pts. 15 S5 AP4 shots at BS 4 and T4 in AP 3 armor to boot.

I truely think the more GW "fixes" things with a new codex, it breaks the viability of 5 to 8 other codexes.

IG also broke the reliability of Necrons...

What about leaving the current FW unit as is, but dropping down the point value? Then to compensate for FW sucking they could invent a new Tau troop unit that is more expensive than a regular fire warrior but is a heavy weapons kinda troop that cant move and shoot but has better AP for their more "advanced weaponry" and has a new type of armor that gives them a 3 up save or increases their toughness? personally id prefer them getting a 3 up armor save. They are constantly coming up with new types of crisis suits so I dont see why they would not experiment with the troops equipment to. I think it would not hurt the style of the tau army and it would not create some kinda apocalyptic imbalance all the other races are whining about just b/c they do not want their races to seem weaker.

I posted this in some other forums/threads and thought it might get more discussion here.
What I want to see is the following:
Tau units like fire warriors and some others should have the ability to either move then shoot or shoot then move. This would work by declaring IN THE MOVMENT PHASE that the unit is moving. It can then either take the movement, or hold it until the assault phase. If they move now, nothing changes. If they take the move in the assault phase, they do nothing in the movement phase. Then in the shooting phase they are counted as moving for the effects on what can fire and how. Finally, in the assault phase they take their 6" move.
I do not think this rule would be OP and it does fit fluff already because the Tau already have units that have move-shoot-move, and it would make sense that that type of tactic is something that should be ingrained in them from the beginning.

The reason is basically that the 5th ed rules give so much to the assault armies with the combination of (1) movement phase moves only happen before the shooting phase, (2) the movement phase move 6" and then assault phase move 6" more, (3) if a unit is fleet they run up to 6" in the shooting phase and still assault and (4) lack of a shooting phase equivalent of sweeping advance or extra wounds (unlike an assault that can have 2 marines kill 2 kroot and the wipe the surviving 15 kroot in a single round) and 2/3 armies can basically ignore pinning checks from carbines. That gives assaulting unit a range of 12" to 18" (or 1/4 to 3/8 of the board width) to attack and almost no way for Tau to manage the engagement distance.

I think that item (1) (followed closely by (4) which will be a separate post) is actually the biggest problem, and here is why. Because any assaulting unit has an effective range of 12" or more to get to at a Tau shooty unit, the utility of rapid fire is wasted. And without the 2 shots rapid fire, the shooting phase is not enough to wipe out a unit. This is because the shooty unit had to move up into rapid fire range and then shoot, or had remain stationary to shoot (if at the edge rapid fire range already or longr range and taking single shots). Note, this still is the issue with carbines, but to a different extent.

TL;DR: Tau Firewarriors and some other units should have ability to either MOVE then SHOOT or SHOOT then MOVE in a turn and they would shoot as moving in either case.

sluggaslugga wrote:Fire Warrior squad:

Fire Warriors: Ws2 Bs4 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ 10pts
Shas'ui: Ws2 Bs4 S3 T3 Wi I2 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ +15pts
6-12
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, Pulse Pistol, Defensive Grenades, Light Armour.

Special Rules: For the Greater Good: The unit gains the Stubborn universal Special Rule.

Options:
Any Fire Warrior can exchange his Pulse Rifle with:
Pulse Carbine......Free

1 Fire Warrior may be upgraded to a Shas'ui with the cost of 15pts

1 per 6 Fire Warriors can exchange their Pulse Rifles with:
Missile Pod......20pts
Fusion Blaster..20pts
Burst Cannon..15pts

The Shas'ui may purchase the next items for the whole squad:
Targeting array.....20pts
Multi-Tracker........10pts
Target Lock.........10pts

The squad may take a Devilfish as their Dedicated transport


Gue'Vesa squad:

Trooper: Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv4+ 8pts
Sergeant: Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld7 Sv4+ +10pts
5-10
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, Light Armour.

Special Rules: Weapon Problems: All tau weapons used by the Gue'vesa count as having the Gets Hot! rule.

Options:
Any Gue'vesa may exchange his Pulse rifle with:
Lasgun.............Free
Pulse Carbine....5pts

One Gue'vesa may be upgraded into a sergeant with the cost of 10pts

1 per 5 Gue'vesa may exchange his Pulse Rifle with:
Sniper................5pts
Burst Cannon......10pts
Fusion Blaster......10pts
Meltagun............20pts

The Sergeant may be exchanged with a Shas'ui with 5pts

The squad may take a Chimera or Devilfish as a transport (If a Shas'ui is included in the squad, then a Chimera cannot be taken as the transport.)




Thoughts?

the bold part: melta guns are twice as expenisve as FBs but they have the same stat line, so the melta guns are useless

Possibly have meltaguns fired at a better BS due to the guardsmen knowing how to use it better than a fusion blaster? It'd still need to cost less, perhaps 15, but have it fired at BS4.

The FB is a Gets Hot!... Didn't you read the thing?
Meltagun costs 10pts more, but since the humans can operate it without actually overheating it, the
Meltagun does not have the Gets Hot! Special rule.

sluggaslugga wrote:The FB is a Gets Hot!... Didn't you read the thing?
Meltagun costs 10pts more, but since the humans can operate it without actually overheating it, the
Meltagun does not have the Gets Hot! Special rule.

That's not a great rule, Tau weapons are made specifically to never overheat, they will have a cut-off mechanism or some feature which prevents this and is used in unison with superior cooling. They cannot actually overheat unless the gun is damaged and the cooling/cut-off is also damaged.

Ok... Then the bs4 for human weapons sounds better.

what about increasing the cc effectiveness of the kroot. That way it does not go against the Tau background of sucking at CC. besides right now the kroot are a little eh at the moment. They are good, but they could be much better. I mean they are not as good at shooting as the Fire Warriors, and they get killed in CC just a little bit slower. The infiltrate and cheap cost is about the only thing they have goin for them

darkcloud92 wrote:what about increasing the cc effectiveness of the kroot. That way it does not go against the Tau background of sucking at CC. besides right now the kroot are a little eh at the moment. They are good, but they could be much better. I mean they are not as good at shooting as the Fire Warriors, and they get killed in CC just a little bit slower. The infiltrate and cheap cost is about the only thing they have goin for them

I think that the Kroot are good, but need more stuff...
What about Knarloc Riders?

sluggaslugga wrote:

darkcloud92 wrote:what about increasing the cc effectiveness of the kroot. That way it does not go against the Tau background of sucking at CC. besides right now the kroot are a little eh at the moment. They are good, but they could be much better. I mean they are not as good at shooting as the Fire Warriors, and they get killed in CC just a little bit slower. The infiltrate and cheap cost is about the only thing they have goin for them

I think that the Kroot are good, but need more stuff...
What about Knarloc Riders?

Well using a knarloc rider means you cant infiltrate which kinda sucks. Maby if they just let you infiltrate with them, or re-did the sharper so he was so terrible. Besides that id say the kroot are pretty balanced, kinda like Fire Knife suits. They arent great at anything, but there ok at both shooting and CC and pretty good at surviving if your opponent lets you place a few bushes

When a long fangs squad costs less and puts out 36" 15 5S shots for less than 12 tau you know it is bad.

Increase pulse carbines to ROF 2 and burst cannons to ROF 4 and you would go a long way to addressing the Tau problems but even that will not put it in the realm of top tier competitive.

DAaddict wrote:When a long fangs squad costs less and puts out 36" 15 5S shots for less than 12 tau you know it is bad.

They put out more S5 shots, with a lower AP, higher BS, better armor save, AND can split fire for less points than a FW squad.

I didn't know this until this thread.

And it makes me sad...

I think that BS 4 for FW is too much... They should get a +1 BS for 10 points though... (targeting array.)

well ya they could do that, make our units cheaper per model (which it should be anyways.) then make the option of getting like elite Grenadier Tau fire warriors for more points. The upgrade would be better BS as suggested, sounds like itd be fairly balanced?

Darkjediben wrote:To those posts that propose allowing Tau to have an ability to fall back BEFORE close combat but after being charged...No.

Your army is not special. You don't get to be the only thing in the entire game that entirely avoids close combat. You guys have amazing shooting abilities in the form of your crisis suits' ability to jump in, rapid fire, and then jump away to an entirely inaccessible location. In return, this is balanced out by the fact that you guys crumple in assault. If you can't keep your troops out of assault, you deserve to lose them.

You also neglect to mention how badly this would break the game for any army that relies on assault. Say I have a bunch of LC terminators, and I keep them in a landraider all game to keep them immune from being shot at with plasma until I want them to charge. I finally get off the charge...and a bunch of infantry guys just run away, BEFORE I get a single hit in. Now my guys are just stranded out in the open, in rapid fire range of your whole army. How on earth is THAT fair?

I could MAYBE see implementing the Hit and run ability and having that be balanced, just because it is Initiative based, Tau have pretty mediocre initiative, and because it would happen AFTER a round of combat. Having said that, I think that if an ability like that is implemented, the unit that performs that action may not shoot in its next phase. It can run, move, whatever, but no falling back and instantly turning around and rapid firing the charging squad to death. That's a load of bull crap. You don't get to have an instant-win army, you have weaknesses just like everybody else.

The thing is, Tau are so horrible at cc, they need to be the uber premire super duper mega most awesme shooty race in the game. The game is wholly skewed to close combat. Everything moves to fast in other armies to give the Tau much chance to do a lot of shooting, a flee option just gives them a chance to get off a few shots before the enemy annihilates them (I shudder to think if GW still allowed the sweeping advances into new cc like 3rd ed, I watched an entire Tau battle line go in one round against a single assault marine squad.....that's ####### dumb).

It's the future, where guns should be king. Not items people suddenly forget how to fire. The onus should all be on the cc armies to figure out how they are going to survive to get there, not on the Tau to figure out how the heck they'll last long enough to shoot at something.

As easily the worst race in the game in close combat, they have to be the best at shooting. They aren't.

You can take some of the following routes:

Uping mobility (helping them stay out of cc longer to shoot more, helps offset low bs, few low ap weapons, few high strength weapons)
Upping accuracy (means the shooting they do get will actually hurt occasionally)
Altering loadouts (mixing in new weapons/wargear options to modulate unit functions)
Price Drops (making things more plentiful and thus throwing more rounds down field)

Really, they need a mix of those 4 in some form. It doesn't have to be running away, or all higher bs, etc. For instance, cheaper firewarriors (and making a shas'ui come with a free bonding knife, so you have a reason to buy him over the team lead...), more accurate and cheaper crisis, some tank tweeks, and a few other options (like HWs in Drone Squads for instance, rail rifles on stealth/crisis suits and removing the only rapid fire rule, or other ideas) would make them more attractive and able to do what they should...shoot you to pieces so that whatever is left has a rough time winning out in cc.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:To those posts that propose allowing Tau to have an ability to fall back BEFORE close combat but after being charged...No.

Your army is not special. You don't get to be the only thing in the entire game that entirely avoids close combat. You guys have amazing shooting abilities in the form of your crisis suits' ability to jump in, rapid fire, and then jump away to an entirely inaccessible location. In return, this is balanced out by the fact that you guys crumple in assault. If you can't keep your troops out of assault, you deserve to lose them.

You also neglect to mention how badly this would break the game for any army that relies on assault. Say I have a bunch of LC terminators, and I keep them in a landraider all game to keep them immune from being shot at with plasma until I want them to charge. I finally get off the charge...and a bunch of infantry guys just run away, BEFORE I get a single hit in. Now my guys are just stranded out in the open, in rapid fire range of your whole army. How on earth is THAT fair?

I could MAYBE see implementing the Hit and run ability and having that be balanced, just because it is Initiative based, Tau have pretty mediocre initiative, and because it would happen AFTER a round of combat. Having said that, I think that if an ability like that is implemented, the unit that performs that action may not shoot in its next phase. It can run, move, whatever, but no falling back and instantly turning around and rapid firing the charging squad to death. That's a load of bull crap. You don't get to have an instant-win army, you have weaknesses just like everybody else.

The thing is, Tau are so horrible at cc, they need to be the uber premire super duper mega most awesme shooty race in the game. The game is wholly skewed to close combat. Everything moves to fast in other armies to give the Tau much chance to do a lot of shooting, a flee option just gives them a chance to get off a few shots before the enemy annihilates them (I shudder to think if GW still allowed the sweeping advances into new cc like 3rd ed, I watched an entire Tau battle line go in one round against a single assault marine squad.....that's ####### dumb).

It's the future, where guns should be king. Not items people suddenly forget how to fire. The onus should all be on the cc armies to figure out how they are going to survive to get there, not on the Tau to figure out how the heck they'll last long enough to shoot at something.

Against CC Tau should have Stubborn and Hit&Run... because if they make through the first round of CC they could try to brake away from it without running away in fear... we could call the special rule
For the Greater Good

sluggaslugga wrote:

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:To those posts that propose allowing Tau to have an ability to fall back BEFORE close combat but after being charged...No.

Your army is not special. You don't get to be the only thing in the entire game that entirely avoids close combat. You guys have amazing shooting abilities in the form of your crisis suits' ability to jump in, rapid fire, and then jump away to an entirely inaccessible location. In return, this is balanced out by the fact that you guys crumple in assault. If you can't keep your troops out of assault, you deserve to lose them.

You also neglect to mention how badly this would break the game for any army that relies on assault. Say I have a bunch of LC terminators, and I keep them in a landraider all game to keep them immune from being shot at with plasma until I want them to charge. I finally get off the charge...and a bunch of infantry guys just run away, BEFORE I get a single hit in. Now my guys are just stranded out in the open, in rapid fire range of your whole army. How on earth is THAT fair?

I could MAYBE see implementing the Hit and run ability and having that be balanced, just because it is Initiative based, Tau have pretty mediocre initiative, and because it would happen AFTER a round of combat. Having said that, I think that if an ability like that is implemented, the unit that performs that action may not shoot in its next phase. It can run, move, whatever, but no falling back and instantly turning around and rapid firing the charging squad to death. That's a load of bull crap. You don't get to have an instant-win army, you have weaknesses just like everybody else.

The thing is, Tau are so horrible at cc, they need to be the uber premire super duper mega most awesme shooty race in the game. The game is wholly skewed to close combat. Everything moves to fast in other armies to give the Tau much chance to do a lot of shooting, a flee option just gives them a chance to get off a few shots before the enemy annihilates them (I shudder to think if GW still allowed the sweeping advances into new cc like 3rd ed, I watched an entire Tau battle line go in one round against a single assault marine squad.....that's ####### dumb).

It's the future, where guns should be king. Not items people suddenly forget how to fire. The onus should all be on the cc armies to figure out how they are going to survive to get there, not on the Tau to figure out how the heck they'll last long enough to shoot at something.

Against CC Tau should have Stubborn and Hit&Run... because if they make through the first round of CC they could try to brake away from it without running away in fear... we could call the special rule
For the Greater Good

They don't have to be stubborn, there should be a downside to running away. However, a stand and shoot if they pass a leadership test (ala tank shock) could work. They aren't great shots, and you might kill 3 or 4 guys before they kill you.

Plus, it could mean cc armies have to think about what they hit you with first. Use a large squad then follow in with a small model count squad.

Even that isn't necessarily the answer, as there isn't one perfect one. They need a number of tweaks to keep them balanced, while still making everyone fear a Tau shooting phase.

What about AP2 pulse weapons?
Photon grenade launchers? (blinding grenades, enemy Bs and movement reduced by half)
Flechette discharging weapons?
Heat vision? (can shoot through cover, even without LOS.
Medical drones? (FNP)
Repair drones? (works like a mekboy )
Monstrous Vespidian flies?
Drone harbingers? (from DoW )

sluggaslugga wrote:What about AP2 pulse weapons?
Photon grenade launchers? (blinding grenades, enemy Bs and movement reduced by half)
Flechette discharging weapons?
Heat vision? (can shoot through cover, even without LOS.
Medical drones? (FNP)
Repair drones? (works like a mekboy )
Monstrous Vespidian flies?
Drone harbingers? (from DoW )

I have to disagree with most, but I like the Flechette Launcher idea...the Phonton Grenades sound cool, but OP. Maybe have them drop BS by 1 instead