Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

mega_bassist wrote:

sluggaslugga wrote:What about AP2 pulse weapons?
Photon grenade launchers? (blinding grenades, enemy Bs and movement reduced by half)
Flechette discharging weapons?
Heat vision? (can shoot through cover, even without LOS.
Medical drones? (FNP)
Repair drones? (works like a mekboy )
Monstrous Vespidian flies?
Drone harbingers? (from DoW )

I have to disagree with most, but I like the Flechette Launcher idea...the Phonton Grenades sound cool, but OP. Maybe have them drop BS by 1 instead

Well... Troops with psychic abilities, and force weapons wich cost 2 points more than a necron doesn't seem OP?
The halved movement is for preventing the enemy from getting into CC.

Imho, the FW's main issue is that their pulse rifle, while supposed to be significantly above any other main infantry weapon, is crap against MEQ armor.

So how do we change that? I'd take a page from the old 40k editions and give all pulse weapons this special rule: -1 modifier on enemy armor.

And possibly assaut 2 for pulse rifles.

I mean, variations of the following could work to improve Tau:

Line of Sight Railguns - Allowing the Hammerhead's to hit multiple models (i.e. roll to hit for every model in the line or something)

Ion Cannon - right now, no point in taking over the RG. Make it blast on the hammerhead and allow broadsides to carry a non blast model...

Anything Shas'ui and above is BS 4 - Keeping Firewarriors BS 3 is workable through other means, but no reason the very very expensive suits should be bs 3 to start. That said, if they stay bs 3, or models stay bs 3, a radical change needs to happen to marker lights (like making them hit on 5+, lasting for a whole round, allowing split fire with them, etc. No matter what, at the end of the day, you are shooting twice to the enemies once with these things. Right now with a crud bs skill, so you are dumping a fair bit of points into doing this for moderate gain. It got better in 4th, in 3rd only one model could benefit from a marker light hit...making them completely usesless, but still not nearly enough)

Altering FW points, stats, or weapon - They don't work as gun line, the range is to short with the plethora of heavy weapons out there (part of why guard shoots better is the mass of options their infantry have for weapons coupled with a cheaper cost), and being rapid fire you aren't getting full effect from making them mobile in the Devilfish

Dropping costs - even making the crisis suit bs 4 it would still be overpriced in the better configurations. You could drop the cost by 5 points maybe across the board on suits...alternatively make the weapons cheaper. In addition, the DF needs a points drop, and even broadsides Hammerheads could benefit from say a 5 point cost drop.

Now, none of those may work, or be entirely quite right. However, they don't radically change things (other then the RG change). Would go a long way towards upping the Tau shooting phase, and then allow tossing on other options.

To fix HQ
Make all the commanders at least 66% cheaper but are basically pimped FWs with BS5 and 4Wounds
then have to buy the Crisis/Stealth suit and weapons
The commander can buy a null field to stop those pesky psykers
if the commander has a crisis suit he may buy bodyguards at 20pts and come in crisis suits

Ethereal is cheaper, can buy armour, honour blade is a null rod or acts like the Ring of Hotek from DE and is a power weapon

To fix troops
FW cost 7-8pts for the current profile and assault 2 pulse rifles?
alternatively, make pulse rifles rending

then have a 0-2 Troops choice of veteran FW that are BS4, can take a doctrine like IG vets and are 10pts a model
6-12 models in a unit

all doctrines are 0-1 per army
doctrines like:
20pts for FNP (stimm injectors)
20pts for stealth (camo cloaks?)
20pts for the ability to target seperate units (target locks)
20pts for +1 toughness or 3+ armour save (advanced armour, toughness improvement is different to moar armour)

then have weapon options like railrifles, markerlights (keeps the pulse rifle) and fusion blasters for +5pts a model

Devilfish is 65pts

Kroot are cheaper, 5pts a model, and have Assault 1/2 weapons
6+ armour comes free with a shaper
Shaper allows hereditary abilities such as stealth/Furious charge, improved strength/toughness/BS/WS/I/A
Kroot can take other weapons such as bolters, lasguns (why would you want them? included for balance) shuriken catapults and put thier CCW on them
kroot can buy better armour at Xpts per model per point of armour, max 4+save
Shaper can be a minor psyker?

To fix Elites
All elites are BS4
Stealth teams are 25pts a model, stealth field generator is shorter range
stealth teams can swap out thier BCs for MPs or Flamers for free, or pay 10pts to carry a plasma rifle

Crisis Teams are 20pts per model and all weapons are 25-50% cheaper
old special issue weapons and wargear are included as standard weapons and wargear
new special issue systems


To fix Fast Attack
Patfinders are 10pts and get a free Devilfish

Vespids can opt to buy more armour at xpts per model and are faster somehow

Drones leave fast attack and work as a drone pool, you buy x many of each drone and dish them out during deployment

Piranhas are cheaper 75-80% of current, can take other nose weapons and can buy a SMS

Fixing Heavy
HH hull is cheaper by 25%

Skyray gets a multiple missiles rack so can fire like the DOW skyray

Sniper drones are in the drone pool

Broadsides are cheaper and don't have to buy a support system

I feel that a BS of 4 for the majority of Tau units (not necessarily Kroot) should come in to play. If not for Fire Warriors then at least for all suit models (Crisis, Stealth, and Broadside). Fluffwise these units are supposed to be veteran combatants that have been promoted to better weapons. One would think that they would know how to shoot better than the basic troops for simply being veterans, not to mention they are piloting robotic suits with targeting systems.

I also think that Fire Warriors would also benefit from another transport option. One that I've been thinking of would either be an open topped vehicle or one with Fire Points. It would obviously be less armored than a Devlifish. I was thinking something like Front 11, Side 10, Rear 10. To balance out the ability of the Embarked Firewariros to shoot the transport wouldn't have a burst cannon like a Devilfish, no seeker missiles, and it would only have Gun Drones if the squad had spent the points for them (it would all for a squad to 12 FWs and 2 drones though). It would however have a networked-maker-light though that the Fire Warrior squad embarked could take advantage of. It would be able to take defensive wargear like Disruption Pods, Felechette Discharger, etc. I feel a transport like this would both match Tau doctrine and help defend from CC.

I would love to see Gue'vesa officially in the Tau Codex. I think that instead of a human sergent that a Shas'Ui be manditory for the squad. The idea being that the Shas'Ui is there to make sure the humans follow the greater good one way or another. If the Shas'Ui dies the Gue'vesa should have to make a leadership test even if they would not have to otherwise.

Kroot I would also love to see be tweaked. Giving them a 6+ Sv standard would be nice. Also doping the point cost of the shaper or improving its abilities would be something nice to see. Maybe have the shaper give Kroot the Counter-Attack universal special rule, giving the Kroot something akin to the Feral Leap ability Kroot have in DoW RTS.

A last think I would think interesting would be to make Broadsides Walkers. I know some people have said that walkers don't fit the mobile of Tau doctrine, but a Broadside Walker would be more mobile than the battle-suit ones currently in use. In order to limit its fire maybe it can only shoot one weapon system unless it takes an Advanced Stabilization System.

At the very least I would like to see the Tau be the best shooters in the game, like they should be.

The BS problem could be solved with letting every squad purchase a targeting array for 10pts.

Tau die in the first turn of combat. not in 2 or 3 turns.

Lets not be that negative about them, it matters who they fight against.
I think hit and run would be a great rule for them, it gives the tau player a chance to escape and give more wounds.
I mean I have friend who had IG Ratlings that killed a Carnifex (Sorry if I spelt that wrong) in close combat, I have read here on dakkadakka how a dude with a grechen wone a terminator in close combat. After those things anything is possible!

sluggaslugga wrote:The BS problem could be solved with letting every squad purchase a targeting array for 10pts.

I could see that for FWs and be okay with that. I really feel that Crisis, Stealth, and Broadside suits should be at 4 without using points to buy a TA and using up a hard-point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bob the heretic wrote:

Tau die in the first turn of combat. not in 2 or 3 turns.

Lets not be that negative about them, it matters who they fight against.
I think hit and run would be a great rule for them, it gives the tau player a chance to escape and give more wounds.
I mean I have friend who had IG Ratlings that killed a Carnifex (Sorry if I spelt that wrong) in close combat, I have read here on dakkadakka how a dude with a grechen wone a terminator in close combat. After those things anything is possible!

No FW (and most other Tau units with the exception of Kroot) do very poorly in CC. Sure you can get lucky and win an assault, but more often than not you are going to lose an assault. Tau in general have low initiative, few attacks, low strength, and low WS. Tau LD is also somewhat low, meaning they will break easily and with sweeping advances their low initiative will often result in the whole squad being wiped out.

I don't think anyone wants the Tau to suddenly become better in CC, however I'm sure many players would like to see a special rule or wargear that would help Tau units stay out of close combat.

bob the heretic wrote:
I mean I have friend who had IG Ratlings that killed a Carnifex (Sorry if I spelt that wrong) in close combat.

I also beat a Hive Tyrant with my ratlings in CC...

sluggaslugga wrote:The BS problem could be solved with letting every squad purchase a targeting array for 10pts.

It would have to be 10pts for the whole squad rather than 10pts a model! otherwise you are talking GK points for a mediocre infantry model

I have had fire warrior teams fight off a terminator, that is the best I've ever got,
only kroot can be asked to fight in CC for more than a turn but they are better used to kill a small squad or hold up a big one
Gun Drones are better in CC than FW

I don't like Firewarriors at BS4. Suits-that's OK (I still think all BS4 suits should be Farsight's bag...and that Farsight's suits should be to vanilla Tau crisis suits as the Grey Knight Paladins compare to vanilla Space Marine terminators.).

Some of the rumors for the Necrons seem like they might be interesting for use with Markerlights (all units shooting at a marked target count their shots as twin-linked).

I don't think they need to be "marined" up with heavy weapons in their squads. I think that's a fantasy of Marine players who started off playing space marines of some variety or another, and then picked up Tau for whatever reason...because sure enough thats the first thing most EVERYONE recommends. I don't like it.

Psychosaur wrote:

I don't think anyone wants the Tau to suddenly become better in CC, however I'm sure many players would like to see a special rule or wargear that would help Tau units stay out of close combat.

Indeed. A drone mounted flechette discharger that works like the vehicle mounted ones would do nicely (all models attacking the unit would be wounded on a 4+ before attack rolls are made) Since its infantry involved, have it set up so that it goes to combat resolution. It keeps working every turn until the drone is taken out. It can't be used when the tau unit is doing the assaulting though...until the next turn. Its a defensive/reacitve weapon system.

I also beat a Hive Tyrant with my ratlings in CC...

I was talking about you......

Psychosaur wrote:

sluggaslugga wrote:The BS problem could be solved with letting every squad purchase a targeting array for 10pts.

I could see that for FWs and be okay with that. I really feel that Crisis, Stealth, and Broadside suits should be at 4 without using points to buy a TA and using up a hard-point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bob the heretic wrote:

Tau die in the first turn of combat. not in 2 or 3 turns.

Lets not be that negative about them, it matters who they fight against.
I think hit and run would be a great rule for them, it gives the tau player a chance to escape and give more wounds.
I mean I have friend who had IG Ratlings that killed a Carnifex (Sorry if I spelt that wrong) in close combat, I have read here on dakkadakka how a dude with a grechen wone a terminator in close combat. After those things anything is possible!

No FW (and most other Tau units with the exception of Kroot) do very poorly in CC. Sure you can get lucky and win an assault, but more often than not you are going to lose an
assault. Tau in general have low initiative, few attacks, low strength, and low WS. Tau LD is also somewhat low, meaning they will break easily and with sweeping advances their low initiative will often result in the whole squad being wiped out.

I don't think anyone wants the Tau to suddenly become better in CC, however I'm sure many players would like to see a special rule or wargear that would help Tau units stay out of close combat.

This.

Yay! 100 posts!

The Zoat wrote:

Psychosaur wrote:

sluggaslugga wrote:The BS problem could be solved with letting every squad purchase a targeting array for 10pts.

I could see that for FWs and be okay with that. I really feel that Crisis, Stealth, and Broadside suits should be at 4 without using points to buy a TA and using up a hard-point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bob the heretic wrote:

Tau die in the first turn of combat. not in 2 or 3 turns.

Lets not be that negative about them, it matters who they fight against.
I think hit and run would be a great rule for them, it gives the tau player a chance to escape and give more wounds.
I mean I have friend who had IG Ratlings that killed a Carnifex (Sorry if I spelt that wrong) in close combat, I have read here on dakkadakka how a dude with a grechen wone a terminator in close combat. After those things anything is possible!

No FW (and most other Tau units with the exception of Kroot) do very poorly in CC. Sure you can get lucky and win an assault, but more often than not you are going to lose an
assault. Tau in general have low initiative, few attacks, low strength, and low WS. Tau LD is also somewhat low, meaning they will break easily and with sweeping advances their low initiative will often result in the whole squad being wiped out.

I don't think anyone wants the Tau to suddenly become better in CC, however I'm sure many players would like to see a special rule or wargear that would help Tau units stay out of close combat.

This.

Yay! 100 posts!

Congratulations!

Actually... yeah, this

Drones offers versatility. GW should expand on them.

Drones can serve as the Heavy Weapons for the Fire Warrior squad akin to modern day Predator Drone with Hellfire Missile. In this case, it could be Seeker Missiles.

Futuristic Tau doesn't need camo-cloaks when they have Steath Field generators. Perhaps Stealth Field Generator drone granting the squad either stealth rule or 2D6 * 3 to see them?

There could also be a medical drone distributing stimm injectors. FNP to friendlies within 6"?

Advanced Targeter upgrade that lets the unit fire into combat.

I like the Idea of photon grenades or some other special wargear to make it difficult terrain to assault warriors equipped.

Give flechette a similar rule in addition to its old one making it difficult to assault the tank or make them use the facing armour value they assaulted.

woodbok wrote:

sluggaslugga wrote:Hit&Run?

Tau die in the first turn of combat. not in 2 or 3 turns.

Very much untrue. I haven't been in one assault that I didn't survive for more than one turn.

I think the stats for the Tau and Human fire warriors need to be switched around (the BS at least) I remember reading that Tau have poor eye sight and is why their BS is so low.

Now I personally like the BS the way it is because it's a fair trade off for having a 12 man element that all shoot a STR 5 rapid fire weapon with the range of 30"

Very much untrue. I haven't been in one assault that I didn't survive for more than one turn.

Then you were lucky.

I've had 10 FWs beat down 6 harlies in the first round of combat, 5 FWs beat down a lictor in combat, 10 FWs hold up a Jetseer Council in combat from around turn 5 till the end of the game, a broadside battlesuit beat down and SA a large scout marine squad and a crisis suit hold the throne of judgement in CC from Turn 2 until game-end, even managing to deal it a wound.

They are select moments from 3+ years of playing Tau; if we look at it from experience, then your experience and my experience would mean that FWs and Tau as a whole are as hard as nails in CC, or at least a tough nut to crack, but that's BS.

If you want the other side of the coin, then a single Archon charged and slaughtered a unit of 10 FWs in one assault phase; a unit of Incubi did the same, as did a unit of DE warriors. A unit of scout marines (the same ones my broadside later beat down) charged and slaughtered a unit of 12 FWs in one assault phase, and countless other times where my FWs have been maimed in ~1 round of combat.

Further experience comes from playing against Tau as Chaos, where a single chaos spawn ate some FWs and swept the rest of the unit in one round of combat, where khorne berzerkers did the same (although that's wholly expected of berzerkers). Also seeing Tau being played against allows me to add 12 FWs being killed by 5 Space Marines in one round of combat; 10 FWs being swept by a single CSM with a plasmagun in one round of combat.

That's my experience, YMMV as ever.

Tau are like a wet noodle in close combat; it doesn't take a lot more than a slight breeze to knock them down, but you might get unlucky and that noodle might whip you in the eye.

For the most part, however, Tau (FWs mainly) die in the opening rounds of combat.

That was an interesting Metaphora...
Anyways, I have humiliating moments against Tau, but also very cool and epic.
A unit of 5 Drones kill my Penal Legion in CC, or my priest
Detaches from the squad and charges at 2
Surviving FWs holding an objective, kills both of them, then dies a martyr.

Tau with BS 4? I don't think so.

Speaking of funny Tau CC my gun drone from my piranha was able to wound a terminator.

The core problem of Tau is they are a firepower army that does not stand out in firepower. BS 4 or cheaper markerlights or persistent markerlights would go a long way to helping them.

Cost or effectiveness needs to be adjusted. ROF 2 carbines ROF4 burst cannons would help. Just look at this for a comparison:
6 long fangs with 5 heavy bolters 115 points
12 Firewarriors with rifles 120 points
15 S5 AP4 shots that hit 2/3 of the time versus 12 S5 AP5 shots that hit 1/2 of the time. One round of exchange fire and 10 firewarriors are dead versus 2 marines blowing their armor save.

Goddard wrote:Tau with BS 4? I don't think so.

Why? Why shouldn't at least all suits be BS 4 as a base? They aren't super fast for mobility (seems like everyone else gets bikes/jet marines/open topped transports/etc), they don't pack artillery, have horrible cc stats, only a 4+ save, suits die far to easily to incoming fire (for the cost of two+ terminators I get a model that goes up to a single Krak Missle).

They are genetically adapted to shooting, why shouldn't they do it well enough?

Personally I could forgo the BS 4 on Firewarriors, but not pathfinders and suits. The shoot to shoot again method is horrible for someone that has to be awesome at shooting in order to win, yet isn't.

Id like to see all Tau Suits act as power weapons in CC. IMO The Low WS, Low T, and low LD more than make up for ignoring armor tests in CC.

A friend of mine had what I thought to be a good idea for FWs. How about a counter-shot ability, sort of like counter-attack but shooting.

Counter-shot: When the unit is being assaulted they may attempt to retain their composure in the face of the upcoming charge. If the unit includes a Shas'ui they can elect to take a Morale test and if passed the unit will be allowed to shoot at the oncoming attackers. Attempting a counter-shot forgoes the use photon grenades.

Combat would then result as normal.

Brother Sein wrote:A friend of mine had what I thought to be a good idea for FWs. How about a counter-shot ability, sort of like counter-attack but shooting.

Counter-shot: When the unit is being assaulted they may attempt to retain their composure in the face of the upcoming charge. If the unit includes a Shas'ui they elect to take a Morale test and if passed the unit will be allowed to shoot at the oncoming attackers. Attempting a counter-shot forgoes the use photon grenades.

Combat would then result as normal.

When did we move to Fantasy Battle?

Actually thus could work pretty well...

They use this in Flames of War - defensive fire.

It works very well and it makes sense.

Here's what I think:

All Suits (Battle, Stealth and Broadside) are Bs4 base.

Fire Warriors can be upgraded to Bs4 for 20 points for the unit.

Pulse Carbines are Assault 2.

Pulse Rifles -1 from armour saves (termies take on a 3+, ork boys get no save at all).

Tau can elect to fire into a charging enemy unit, but cannot make any other attacks in melee that turn.

Kroot have a 6+ armour save as standard and have furious charge.

Shapers can improve this to a 5+ save at 20 points for the whole unit, and can elect to replace FC with Counter Attack (chosen at deployment).

Hammerhead railguns can fire a solid shot that hit everything in a line, but takes a -1 penalty to it's strength for each unit it passes through (so S10 on the first, S9 on the second), to a minimum of 5.

Thoughts?

S_P

Space_Potato wrote:Here's what I think:

All Suits (Battle, Stealth and Broadside) are Bs4 base.

Fire Warriors can be upgraded to Bs4 for 20 points for the unit.

Pulse Carbines are Assault 2.

Pulse Rifles -1 from armour saves (termies take on a 3+, ork boys get no save at all).

Tau can elect to fire into a charging enemy unit, but cannot make any other attacks in melee that turn.

Kroot have a 6+ armour save as standard and have furious charge.

Shapers can improve this to a 5+ save at 20 points for the whole unit, and can elect to replace FC with Counter Attack (chosen at deployment).

Hammerhead railguns can fire a solid shot that hit everything in a line, but takes a -1 penalty to it's strength for each unit it passes through (so S10 on the first, S9 on the second), to a minimum of 5.

Thoughts?

S_P

Pulse carbines should be assault 2 pinning, but range lowered to 12"

The rest is pretty solid to me.