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Fire Warrior squad:

Fire Warriors: Ws2 Bs4 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ 10pts
Shas'ui: Ws2 Bs4 S3 T3 Wi I2 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ +15pts
6-12
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, Pulse Pistol, Defensive Grenades, Light Armour.

Special Rules: For the Greater Good: The unit gains the Stubborn universal Special Rule.

Options:
Any Fire Warrior can exchange his Pulse Rifle with:
Pulse Carbine......Free

1 Fire Warrior may be upgraded to a Shas'ui with the cost of 15pts

1 per 6 Fire Warriors can exchange their Pulse Rifles with:
Missile Pod......20pts
Fusion Blaster..20pts
Burst Cannon..15pts

The Shas'ui may purchase the next items for the whole squad:
Targeting array.....20pts
Multi-Tracker........10pts
Target Lock.........10pts

The squad may take a Devilfish as their Dedicated transport


Gue'Vesa squad:

Trooper: Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv4+ 8pts
Sergeant: Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld7 Sv4+ +10pts
5-10
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, Light Armour.

Special Rules: Weapon Problems: All tau weapons used by the Gue'vesa count as having the Gets Hot! rule.

Options:
Any Gue'vesa may exchange his Pulse rifle with:
Lasgun.............Free
Pulse Carbine....5pts

One Gue'vesa may be upgraded into a sergeant with the cost of 10pts

1 per 5 Gue'vesa may exchange his Pulse Rifle with:
Sniper................5pts
Burst Cannon......10pts
Fusion Blaster......10pts
Meltagun............20pts

The Sergeant may be exchanged with a Shas'ui with 5pts

The squad may take a Chimera or Devilfish as a transport (If a Shas'ui is included in the squad, then a Chimera cannot be taken as the transport.)




Thoughts?

Isn't stubborn bad for Tau because they generally want to get out of close combat? If anything, they should have Combat Tactics.

Hit&Run?

sluggaslugga wrote:Hit&Run?

Tau die in the first turn of combat. not in 2 or 3 turns.

Not always...
Depends on How many are there?

I could put Stubborn and Hit&Run, So that if they somehow survive, they can escape combat without running away in fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not always...
Depends on How many are there?

I could put Stubborn and Hit&Run, So that if they somehow survive, they can escape combat without running away in fear.

This has probably already been proposed for tau before.

Special Rule: Tactical withdrawal (or some other name :p)

If a Tau unit is charged they may attempt a tactical withdrawal. Both players roll a D6 and add their units initiatives. If the Tau's value is greater then they are able to escape and roll 2 D6 to see how far they fall back. The unit is considered to have moved and cannot move again in the players next turn (but can still shoot and assault). If they fail the combat is resolved normally.

If the unit has defensive grenades it +1 to their initiative for tactical withdrawals.

Or

Special rule: Selfless Sacrifice

If a tau unit is assaulted they may attempted to perform a selfless sacrifice to avoid the combat. The Tau player attempts a leadership test and if passed 25% (rounding up) of the unit is killed holding back the enemy but the remaining units may fallback 2 D6 and automatically regroups.

I've only played against tau a few times so I'm not totally familiar with them.

I would change the following:

1 per 6 Fire Warriors can exchange their Pulse Rifles with:
Burst Cannon (free)
Markerlight 5pts
Missile Pod 10 pts
Fusion Blaster 10 pts

This would actually make fire warriors a competitive unit...

20 points per a missile pod/fusion blaster is overpriced. To get 2 fire warriors with one of each would cost 60 points, a crisis suit with both (and a multi tracker) would cost 54...

Also, get rid of defensive grenades on the fire warriors. They make them worse! I wouldn't put defensive grenades on my fire warriors if they were free, because they will only make your unit worse.

No.

Tau shouldn't be getting heavy weapons in squads.

It ruins the flavor of Tau(which is every unit has a specific purpose, and Fire Warriors are supposed to be supported by Suits, while Suits are supported by Fire Warriors) and makes no sense in the end.

Especially with the weapon choices you're giving.

If you want something unique, let them buy a Crisis Suit to go into the unit.

Ok, howabout weapons that crisis suits normally don't take?

1 per 6 Fire Warriors can exchange their Pulse Rifles with:
Burst Cannon (free)
Flamer (free)
Markerlight 5pts

Those upgrades don't take away from the focus of fire warriors.

...Again.
No.

"1 per 6 Fire Warriors" exchanging their Pulse Rifles goes against what we had laid down pretty early on as "The immutable rules of Tau".

They don't do 'special weapons' in Fire Warrior teams.

Pathfinders get more leeway, mainly for Rail Rifles, but that has to deal with the fact that they usually operate away from the remainder of the Tau force.

Which is why stealth suits also can get "special" weapons as well?

If "Every unit has a specific purpose" - the purpose of fire warriors is to kill light infantry. They are currently over-costed for that purpose, and so burst cannons and flamers (which both roughly operate in the same range) go to that exact same purpose.

And I would say fire warriors do need something. If not an increase in BS or a decrease in points, it should be something to this effect.

Stealth Suits and Pathfinders are the 'lone wolves' of the Tau army, which is why they can get 'special weapons'.

Both of them operate ahead of the Tau army, and fulfill no single specific role.

The 'purpose of Fire Warriors' isn't 'to kill light infantry'.
Fire Warriors are the 'lynchpin of the Tau Empire', their weapon is able to down pretty much everything up to Terminators or tanks.

When they need to 'kill light infantry', they swap rifles for carbines.

Kanluwen wrote:Stealth Suits and Pathfinders are the 'lone wolves' of the Tau army, which is why they can get 'special weapons'.

Both of them operate ahead of the Tau army, and fulfill no single specific role.

The 'purpose of Fire Warriors' isn't 'to kill light infantry'.
Fire Warriors are the 'lynchpin of the Tau Empire', their weapon is able to down pretty much everything up to Terminators or tanks.

When they need to 'kill light infantry', they swap rifles for carbines.

but if you have actually USED fire warriors, you'd have seen that they actually do none of that at this time

Fire Warriors should get +1 BS when firing at a target within 12' range.

The Shas'O should have an Orbital Bombardment(S 10 AP 1 Large Blast, BS does not affect scatter, Once per game) As well as improved Wargear Choices over his subordinates(perhaps a single Railgun, taking up two Hardpoints on his Battlesuit?)

Distraction Drone: This drone features no obvious weapons or support gear; it serves a single function. When a unit with a Distraction Drone is assaulted you may remove the Drone as a casualty. If you do this, place a Strength 4 AP - blast template on the opposing unit; it does not scatter. The Opposing unit immediately takes a Leadership test with a -1 penalty for each wound caused by the drone. If failed, they begin Falling Back.

interms of the Distraction Drone, i'd think it be more effective if the Fire Warriors fell back since well, its a Distraction, and not a scary daemon eating your face. Also it would be more reliable against stubborn and fearless enemies.

rockprime wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Stealth Suits and Pathfinders are the 'lone wolves' of the Tau army, which is why they can get 'special weapons'.

Both of them operate ahead of the Tau army, and fulfill no single specific role.

The 'purpose of Fire Warriors' isn't 'to kill light infantry'.
Fire Warriors are the 'lynchpin of the Tau Empire', their weapon is able to down pretty much everything up to Terminators or tanks.

When they need to 'kill light infantry', they swap rifles for carbines.

but if you have actually USED fire warriors, you'd have seen that they actually do none of that at this time

And if you have actually USED Fire Warriors against anything other than Marines, you'd have seen that they actually do this most of the time.

I have no sympathy for Tau players who try to have Fire Warriors fighting Marines for the most part.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Fire Warriors should get +1 BS when firing at a target within 12' range.

No.

The Shas'O should have an Orbital Bombardment(S 10 AP 1 Large Blast, BS does not affect scatter, Once per game)

I'm going to go, again, with 'No'. Tau never have orbital superiority in their assaults, and none of their vessels are equipped for orbital bombardments anyways.
At most, it would be a few Railgun strikes.

As well as improved Wargear Choices over his subordinates(perhaps a single Railgun, taking up two Hardpoints on his Battlesuit?)

You mean like the 'Special Issue Wargear' that was such a spectacular bust?

As for "a single railgun taking up two hardpoints on his Battlesuit"--no. The Railguns on Broadsides require you to sacrifice JsJ simply because of the stabilizers needed.
A wrist-mounted Railrifle? Maybe.

Distraction Drone: This drone features no obvious weapons or support gear; it serves a single function. When a unit with a Distraction Drone is assaulted you may remove the Drone as a casualty. If you do this, place a Strength 4 AP - blast template on the opposing unit; it does not scatter. The Opposing unit immediately takes a Leadership test with a -1 penalty for each wound caused by the drone. If failed, they begin Falling Back.

Why would the opposing unit Fall Back?
Why would the Distraction Drone blow up?
This really just seems like an excuse to have some kind of bomb drone ability.

I agree with the comment above me...
Tau should be better equipped though... Free defensive grenades and maybe a 3+ armour save for 50pts per squad (slow and purposeful would be the downside of the armour...

Don't let Kan get you stuck on Tau fluff because GW will probably retcon it all with the next codex. We'll probably see suits with "crisis fists" and "crisis cannons".

If you want to make a fandex, go for it. If it's balanced and fun to play and your opponents don't mind, who cares what someone on this board thinks? Just make up some fluff of your own and say they're a lost colony or an offshoot of a Farsight Enclave and being separated from the high command for so long, they have developed their own way of approaching battle. An example could be they have access to less crisis suits (maybe 0-1) but are still able to manufacture suit weapons so firewarrior squads incorporate heavy weapons soldiers. Lack of Tau have seen the incorporation of human allies (though, personally, I don't see a reason for the 'gets hot' thing just limit access to pulse rifles to squad leaders like with kroot or the old gue'vesa rules).

To those posts that propose allowing Tau to have an ability to fall back BEFORE close combat but after being charged...No.

Your army is not special. You don't get to be the only thing in the entire game that entirely avoids close combat. You guys have amazing shooting abilities in the form of your crisis suits' ability to jump in, rapid fire, and then jump away to an entirely inaccessible location. In return, this is balanced out by the fact that you guys crumple in assault. If you can't keep your troops out of assault, you deserve to lose them.

You also neglect to mention how badly this would break the game for any army that relies on assault. Say I have a bunch of LC terminators, and I keep them in a landraider all game to keep them immune from being shot at with plasma until I want them to charge. I finally get off the charge...and a bunch of infantry guys just run away, BEFORE I get a single hit in. Now my guys are just stranded out in the open, in rapid fire range of your whole army. How on earth is THAT fair?

I could MAYBE see implementing the Hit and run ability and having that be balanced, just because it is Initiative based, Tau have pretty mediocre initiative, and because it would happen AFTER a round of combat. Having said that, I think that if an ability like that is implemented, the unit that performs that action may not shoot in its next phase. It can run, move, whatever, but no falling back and instantly turning around and rapid firing the charging squad to death. That's a load of bull crap. You don't get to have an instant-win army, you have weaknesses just like everybody else.

Darkjediben wrote:To those posts that propose allowing Tau to have an ability to fall back BEFORE close combat but after being charged...No.

Your army is not special. You don't get to be the only thing in the entire game that entirely avoids close combat. You guys have amazing shooting abilities in the form of your crisis suits' ability to jump in, rapid fire, and then jump away to an entirely inaccessible location. In return, this is balanced out by the fact that you guys crumple in assault. If you can't keep your troops out of assault, you deserve to lose them.

Um, every army is special and they all have their own look, feel and even special rules. Define amazing shooting abilities. BS3 with 30" range weapons is not that impressive anymore, especially when compared to the new grey knights that ALL have storm bolters with special ammo available. As for the suits; they jump 6" shoot then can jump another 6"; there isn't an assault unit in the game that can't catch them especially if they have fleet 18" assault threat range > 12" JSJ range. Besides deathrain suits, all the range of suit weapons is 24" or less and they only have a marine's stats for 3x the price.

Darkjediben wrote:You also neglect to mention how badly this would break the game for any army that relies on assault. Say I have a bunch of LC terminators, and I keep them in a landraider all game to keep them immune from being shot at with plasma until I want them to charge. I finally get off the charge...and a bunch of infantry guys just run away, BEFORE I get a single hit in. Now my guys are just stranded out in the open, in rapid fire range of your whole army. How on earth is THAT fair?

Overreact much? BAs got 6" FnP bubbles, DE got pain tokens etc. No army's special rules have broken the game yet. You obviously don't play fantasy because charge reactions have been standard for a long time now and that system seems to be doing quite well. How fair is it that one marine can wipe an entire squad of firewarriors, how fair is it that grey knights get MCs and every model is a psyker, how fair is it that Tau have no close combat ability AND no psychic abilities or defence? Yeah, we have 30" S5 AP5 guns in units that fold to a strong breeze. I'd rather have 24" bolters and BS4 because my firewarriors spend most of any game sitting in a devilfish and not shooting at anything.

Darkjediben wrote:I could MAYBE see implementing the Hit and run ability and having that be balanced, just because it is Initiative based, Tau have pretty mediocre initiative, and because it would happen AFTER a round of combat. Having said that, I think that if an ability like that is implemented, the unit that performs that action may not shoot in its next phase. It can run, move, whatever, but no falling back and instantly turning around and rapid firing the charging squad to death. That's a load of bull crap. You don't get to have an instant-win army, you have weaknesses just like everybody else.

We don't get to have an instant win army but IoM armies get leafblower lists, FnP bubbles, 30" shunting, psychic abilities and defence, etc...

agnosto wrote:Don't let Kan get you stuck on Tau fluff because GW will probably retcon it all with the next codex. We'll probably see suits with "crisis fists" and "crisis cannons".

And fire warriors in armor with armor.

And fire warriors strapped onto the front of crisis-knights.

And assault fire-warriors of doom.

And fire-warriors allying with orks against tyranids.


>_>

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a fluffy Tau codex that fixes many things in the current codex, and possibly adds something new and shiny rather than having a cheese codex of doom with horrible fluff.

Darkjediben wrote:*rant*

You're missing the fundamental issue that Tau are NOT great at shooting. We have army-wide BS3 which offsets the extra strength of our main troop weapons, we have no special/heavy weapons that can be given to troops, our elites fall to plasma more easily than terminators due to lack of an innate invul, and battlecannons smash them to pieces just as easily as any other T4 3+ Sv model. Our plasma is weaker than other races plasma or plasma equivilant bar Eldar, who get 2 Assault shots at 36" to compensate, whereas we need to jump to 12" away from our enemies to get to shots before they move to within 12" of us and rapid-fire us down.

Our battlesuits need to be given costly pieces of wargear to bring them up to BS4, and just doing that makes them more costly than terminators and more than twice as expensive as a space marine before we've even given the suits weapons; a finished fireknife is BS3 and costs 62pts, more than double that of a chaos terminator, and probably close to double that of a loyalist terminator for less surviability in both shooting and assault.

Marines outshoot us thanks to heavy weapons, Necrons simply get back up and advance happily if they have a res orb nearby (do you know how annoying it is to kill 17 out of 40 Necron Warriors and nothing else whilst your army is shot to pieces or charged and wiped out because we lack stopping power?), Eldar are faster than us, their vehicles more resilliant (I spent 7 turns firing 4 railguns (two twin-linked) at a Falcon and a wave serpent, managing only to immobilise the falcon on the 4th turn, that's 16 railguns spent on 1 result, and 28 shots in total, all because of the wave serpent's rule and the falcon's holofield and spirit stones) and they have at least some competant combat units. IG outgun us and can usually win CC with us if they ever need to charge; the amount of railguns we take can't keep up with an armoured company, and the prominence of cover in 5th makes it almost impossible to shoot any unit without it getting a 4+ cover save.

Having our core unit be able to possibly run away from a CC will not break the army; far, far from it; look at it this way, either we run away and you get rapid fired next turn, or you demolish us in the first round of combat and you get rapid fired anyway, where is the added risk here?

I honestly think the only problem with Tau is the points cost. My honest opinion, I think the Fire Warrior should cost 8 points and that is the only issue with Fire Warriors. Of course, there are a few other issues pretaining to wargear rules not working and other costs.

I know that your army isn't that great ANY MORE, but my point is that the proposed rules should be things like bringing the BS up to 4, lowering some of the points costs, changing up some wargear. NOT giving them CC buffs. That's stupid. The point of the Tau is that they are good at shooting. If you want to fix them, make shooting better, don't make their CC better, that's just dumb.

Darkjediben wrote:I know that your army isn't that great ANY MORE, but my point is that the proposed rules should be things like bringing the BS up to 4, lowering some of the points costs, changing up some wargear. NOT giving them CC buffs. That's stupid. The point of the Tau is that they are good at shooting. If you want to fix them, make shooting better, don't make their CC better, that's just dumb.

But they're not good at shooting and the proposed rule was not a cc buff, it was a way to avoid cc altogether. And it's no less "stupid" than a 30" shunt or dreadnoughts with magic powers or any number of insane rules that GW writers come up with.

I would think a good idea would be the "flee" charge response from fantasy. Roll a d6 and they move away from the chargers that many inches, if it's enough to avoid combat, good; if not, tough luck. I think that would be much less objectionable than borrowing the "stand and shoot" rule from fantasy which could end up with much fewer attackers making it into cc.

What about regular tau Fire Warriors, but with jump packs/teleporters? (teleporters work like jump packs, but might be more fluffy.)

Tau walkers?

Heavy weapon drones?

Stealth for all Tau?

Shooting in CC? (I'm guessing that Tau use firearms in CC... Ever seen the movie called Matrix?)

sluggaslugga wrote:What about regular tau Fire Warriors, but with jump packs/teleporters? (teleporters work like jump packs, but might be more fluffy.)

Tau walkers?

Heavy weapon drones?

Stealth for all Tau?

Shooting in CC? (I'm guessing that Tau use firearms in CC... Ever seen the movie called Matrix?)

Walkers would detract from the current theme of maneuverability that the Tau are supposed to have.

Heavy weapon drones, while fluffly, would make them too much like Eldar weapons platforms.

A stealth drone wouldn't be a bad idea and would be fluffy but wouldn't help them vs. all the cc assaulty armies out there.

Shooting in CC is a bad idea IMO. I don't think Tau doctrine would allow for calling in fire on friendly targets.

Some time ago, in a similar thread, someone said something along the lines of making the pulse grenade slow down enemies as they become disoriented in the charge so that they would count as moving through difficult terrain to assault (roll a d6 for movement). That wouldn't be bad and since your opponent would know you have them, they could plan their assaults appropriately which might give the firewarriors another turn of shooting before they're shredded in cc.

Darkjediben wrote:I know that your army isn't that great ANY MORE, but my point is that the proposed rules should be things like bringing the BS up to 4, lowering some of the points costs, changing up some wargear. NOT giving them CC buffs. That's stupid. The point of the Tau is that they are good at shooting. If you want to fix them, make shooting better, don't make their CC better, that's just dumb.

Again I ask, what is different?

With the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs have a chance to flee combat>You're possibly left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

Without the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs crumple in the first round of combat>FWs lose combat>You sweeping advance>You're left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

Avatar 720 wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:*rant*

You're missing the fundamental issue that Tau are NOT great at shooting. We have army-wide BS3 which offsets the extra strength of our main troop weapons, we have no special/heavy weapons that can be given to troops, our elites fall to plasma more easily than terminators due to lack of an innate invul, and battlecannons smash them to pieces just as easily as any other T4 3+ Sv model. Our plasma is weaker than other races plasma or plasma equivilant bar Eldar, who get 2 Assault shots at 36" to compensate, whereas we need to jump to 12" away from our enemies to get to shots before they move to within 12" of us and rapid-fire us down.

Our battlesuits need to be given costly pieces of wargear to bring them up to BS4, and just doing that makes them more costly than terminators and more than twice as expensive as a space marine before we've even given the suits weapons; a finished fireknife is BS3 and costs 62pts, more than double that of a chaos terminator, and probably close to double that of a loyalist terminator for less surviability in both shooting and assault.

Marines outshoot us thanks to heavy weapons, Necrons simply get back up and advance happily if they have a res orb nearby (do you know how annoying it is to kill 17 out of 40 Necron Warriors and nothing else whilst your army is shot to pieces or charged and wiped out because we lack stopping power?), Eldar are faster than us, their vehicles more resilliant (I spent 7 turns firing 4 railguns (two twin-linked) at a Falcon and a wave serpent, managing only to immobilise the falcon on the 4th turn, that's 16 railguns spent on 1 result, and 28 shots in total, all because of the wave serpent's rule and the falcon's holofield and spirit stones) and they have at least some competant combat units. IG outgun us and can usually win CC with us if they ever need to charge; the amount of railguns we take can't keep up with an armoured company, and the prominence of cover in 5th makes it almost impossible to shoot any unit without it getting a 4+ cover save.

Having our core unit be able to possibly run away from a CC will not break the army; far, far from it; look at it this way, either we run away and you get rapid fired next turn, or you demolish us in the first round of combat and you get rapid fired anyway, where is the added risk here?

Preach it, brother! Share the pain of Tau players!

Avatar 720 wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:I know that your army isn't that great ANY MORE, but my point is that the proposed rules should be things like bringing the BS up to 4, lowering some of the points costs, changing up some wargear. NOT giving them CC buffs. That's stupid. The point of the Tau is that they are good at shooting. If you want to fix them, make shooting better, don't make their CC better, that's just dumb.

Again I ask, what is different?

With the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs have a chance to flee combat>You're possibly left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

Without the 'buff':
You charge FWs>FWs crumple in the first round of combat>FWs lose combat>You sweeping advance>You're left sitting in the open, ready to be rapid fired

possible 24 extra shots?