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Really nice job! I really like how purifying flame just smashes orks, when they charged your lone justicar, that was pretty hilarious.

I'm thinking of using crowe/purifiers in a GK army in the future, but are they remotely usable out of mech? I want to do an all-foot army.

How much of a difference do you think it would have made to take out the Dreadknight in favor of buffing the Purifier squads? They always seem to be trashed every game while the Dreadknight ties up a squad until he's Power Fist'd to death.

Whether your battle reports are losses or victories I'm increasingly convinced that the DK just isn't worth it.

bhsman wrote:How much of a difference do you think it would have made to take out the Dreadknight in favor of buffing the Purifier squads? They always seem to be trashed every game while the Dreadknight ties up a squad until he's Power Fist'd to death.

Whether your battle reports are losses or victories I'm increasingly convinced that the DK just isn't worth it.

I would disagree with you at least in this battle... killed a squad of lootas and my kff then proceeded to hold down a boy squad and widdle it down every turn... I couldn't ignore it in my backfeild... did its job great, this game anyway.

GG

Finding points for a kitted-out squad of Interceptors (achieved by removing the NDK and maybe downgrading a Venerable to a Heavy Support version) could have been just as effective against the Lootas with more attacks and high number of shots, and then Stormbolter Shuffle'd the boyz. Not to mention shunting behind a BW and unleashing S5 Stormbolter hell.

Armchair general and all that, I know, but it just feels like its not the most efficient use of points, but that's me.

EDIT: "Kitted-out" meaning:

-10-man squad
-2 Psycannons
-Psybolts
-MC'd Daemonhammer

315pts all told, but I feel it would have far greater tactical flexibility.

Great report, and it's nice with the pre-game considerations as well.

A damn shame the Orks didn't win ofcourse, but still worth the read

I enjoy your battle reports very much, keep up the good work. Seems like GKs and orks make a good match, very exciting to say the least.

Another excellent and interesting report. If I could make one recommendation for improvement, it would be to include a table overview photo at the beginning since with all the close ups it can be a bit difficult understanding the big tactical picture.

Any plans for a GK vs BA/SW game? That would be an interesting match up indeed.

bhsman wrote:Whether your battle reports are losses or victories I'm increasingly convinced that the DK just isn't worth it.

I've been wondering the same thing. In my two GK vs Daemons batreps, the DreadKnight under-performed (though of course its dark communion power is tremendous against daemons but not helpful for any other army).

Perhaps the only way to make use of the DK is to spend the points as was done here and give it the incinerator and transporter; however that is an awfully expensive unit at that point. Perhaps for those same 230ish points, one could spend it on a transporting interceptor squad and free up a heavy spot for an extra rifleman dread.

Alternately, perhaps the point of the transporting DK is to tie up a dangerous backfield squad and force opponent to shoot it and leave your troops alone.

Post-game Analysis updated.

Griever wrote:I love your reports and the pictures are phenomenal, but the massive amount of proxying really hurts the battle reports. It looks like you were playing against Space Marines.

I try to minimize the proxying on my end. That's one of the reasons I run purifiers with halberds instead of strike squads with proxied swords. However, proxying is unavoidable because:

1) These reports oftentimes experiment with new units.

2) While I have a lot of models, I just don't have all the models or all the different special weapons yet.

3) Can't really control what my opponent brings.


@SabrX:

Yeah, purifiers were highly effective this game. As a matter of fact, I gave them the MVP for my army.

I'm beginning to get a better feel for Crowe. When I first used him against your Battle Sisters, I really didn't know how to use him. Now I find him to be quite effective, as long as he is protected from shooting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gavo wrote:Really nice job! I really like how purifying flame just smashes orks, when they charged your lone justicar, that was pretty hilarious.

I'm thinking of using crowe/purifiers in a GK army in the future, but are they remotely usable out of mech? I want to do an all-foot army.

They definitely are usable, but an all-foot army will suffer against opponents with pie plates and templates. On the flip side, though, they are more resilient to enemy AT which would otherwise destroy mech.

I think the army I used in my previous battle against orks is balanced purifier list. Unfortunately, his army just had the tools to deal with mine, with 4 large AP3 pie plates.

But given the choice between foot and mech, I'll prefer to put my purifiers in transports.

bhsman wrote:How much of a difference do you think it would have made to take out the Dreadknight in favor of buffing the Purifier squads? They always seem to be trashed every game while the Dreadknight ties up a squad until he's Power Fist'd to death.

Whether your battle reports are losses or victories I'm increasingly convinced that the DK just isn't worth it.

Honestly, I agree with your assessment. They are not an efficient unit just like stormravens and paladins. However, they do fill a niche that only 1 other non-vehicular unit can do and that is fast mobility.

I compare the dreadknight to the Tyranid's tyrannofex. Both are over-costed (when kitted out). Both are super-resilient to small-arms fire. Both are not very efficient units in that they probably will not make back their points.

But why do most competitive tyranid players (including myself) take 1 or maybe even 2 t-fexes? The answer lies in the synergy they have with the rest of the army. A good army does not evaluate an individual unit in a vacuum. It has to evaluate it in regards to how well it complements the rest of the army.

This report reminds me why GK's are more "Ork" hunters then Daemonhunters.

BTW taking a total purifier list against orks is uber cheese.

Congratulations on your win.

I dont know If I agree with any model in the game being able to wipe out half a 30 man boyz squad BEFORE combat, let alone one last guy in random the decimated squad. The whole purafying flame gimick just dosent sit well with me. Sure against 5 tactical marines it does jack squat, but on the opposite spectrum its worth more than any unit in the game, and can be spammed.

bhsman wrote:Finding points for a kitted-out squad of Interceptors (achieved by removing the NDK and maybe downgrading a Venerable to a Heavy Support version) could have been just as effective against the Lootas with more attacks and high number of shots, and then Stormbolter Shuffle'd the boyz. Not to mention shunting behind a BW and unleashing S5 Stormbolter hell.

Armchair general and all that, I know, but it just feels like its not the most efficient use of points, but that's me.

Honestly, I'm still undecided between the 2 - jumping DK's and interceptors. They both have something to offer. Interceptors, when kitted out, are very expensive at 300pts+. However, they make for a great reactive, harassment unit and have Warp Quake. The thing is, I'm not sure how well they would fit into a mechanized army.

The DK is a tough, fast monstrous creature that will threaten the enemy and will force them to deal with it. While more vulnerable to high strength, low-AP guns, they are more resilient to small-arms fire. He's also a fire magnet that will draw AT away from the main army.

randyc9999 wrote:Another excellent and interesting report. If I could make one recommendation for improvement, it would be to include a table overview photo at the beginning since with all the close ups it can be a bit difficult understanding the big tactical picture.

Good idea. I'll do that, though my next batrep was played before your suggestion.

Any plans for a GK vs BA/SW game? That would be an interesting match up indeed.

I actually had an appointment to play against mechanized-BA today, but had to cancel that. I want to play against Reecius' Bjorn-long fang wolves. That would be a challenging game. He is a very good player with a very shooty MSU space wolf army that recently placed 5th overall at Adepticon.

I've been wondering the same thing. In my two GK vs Daemons batreps, the DreadKnight under-performed (though of course its dark communion power is tremendous against daemons but not helpful for any other army).

Perhaps the only way to make use of the DK is to spend the points as was done here and give it the incinerator and transporter; however that is an awfully expensive unit at that point. Perhaps for those same 230ish points, one could spend it on a transporting interceptor squad and free up a heavy spot for an extra rifleman dread.

Alternately, perhaps the point of the transporting DK is to tie up a dangerous backfield squad and force opponent to shoot it and leave your troops alone.

Honestly, the DK will never be the efficient, killing machine that a lot of people seem to expect. They are alright in combat, but not great. They can beat MEQ's in combat but will get bogged down by fearless tarpit units like daemons, ork hordes and tyranid swarms. However, they will own tyranid monstrous creatures and, with the heavy incinerator, is quite dangerous to hordes as well. They have mainly 2 roles that I see - as a counter-assault unit (in which case, keep them cheap with maybe 1 gun at most) or as a harassment unit with a personal teleporter. While they will never be as efficient as, say, psyfleman dreads, the DK has its uses in the right army.

mrfantastical wrote:This report reminds me why GK's are more "Ork" hunters then Daemonhunters.

BTW taking a total purifier list against orks is uber cheese.

Congratulations on your win.

You can also call them "tyranid" hunters.

Unfortunately, ork players are going to have to get use to those purifiers. IMO, purifiers are a competitive GK build, just like nobs/meganobs for an ork army, and they're going to be quite common. After all, they are the best infantry unit in the GK codex.

Orock wrote:I dont know If I agree with any model in the game being able to wipe out half a 30 man boyz squad BEFORE combat, let alone one last guy in random the decimated squad. The whole purafying flame gimick just dosent sit well with me. Sure against 5 tactical marines it does jack squat, but on the opposite spectrum its worth more than any unit in the game, and can be spammed.

Yeah, Cleansing Flame and Warp Quake are 2 of the stronger powers in the GK army. Against some armies, you could say these powers are "game-changing". However, I think CF may get nerfed with a FAQ. Right now, you can use it every turn and that makes it quite OP, especially against armies without any psychic defense. But I think the intent is that it is usable only on the 1st turn of assault. We'll see.

I can see the GK actually encouraging a lot more Dakka builds for Nids and Orks, as opposed to the 'get to assault as fast as possible' builds they have now.

Assault builds could still work, though I think shooty builds will fare better against the new knights. For tyranids, take large termagant units and buff them up with a tervigon with FNP and all that good stuff. They will be deadly against the GK's, even when assaulted by Cleansing Flame. For orks, I believe nobs/meganobs with cybork bodies are still viable. Sure they may lose a few nobs first, but all those power klaws are almost guaranteed to wipe out the unit if GK's don't take a warding stave. What will also kill GK's good are templates from combi-skorchas and burna boys.

Only problem is, either you have a large Nob squad, all with PK and Cybork (very expensive) or you have groups of Meganobs, which are cheaper PKs, but need the Mad Dok to give them Cybork (and FnP if that's applicable). And if you have the Mad Dok cyborking your Meganobz, you might as well just put those points into cyborking your regular boyz as well.

Perhaps. I'm no expert with the orks. Despite my force weapons, I still find nobs to be scary. That's why I double-teamed them. Perhaps 3 squads of 18-20 shoota boyz in battlewagons to kill purifiers and 2-3 units of nobs/meganobs in BW's to kill the rest? I don't know. Maybe just a whole bunch of lootas, boys and killa kans? I'm sure some ork players will find success in battling the new grey knights.

Problem is that the current meta for Orks is assault based. But with GK purifiers the last thing you want to do is assault, so that means my take all comers list doesn't work anymore. I don't like tailoring my list, because I won't have that option in a tourney.

mrfantastical wrote:Problem is that the current meta for Orks is assault based. But with GK purifiers the last thing you want to do is assault, so that means my take all comers list doesn't work anymore. I don't like tailoring my list, because I won't have that option in a tourney.

I dunno, I see a lot of people talking about more shooty ork armies of late. My list is a decent example:

Battlewagon - Rolla and Kannon (not the killkannon, the 10pt one)
Ghaz + 3 MegaArmouredNobz (MANz equipped differently)

Battlewagon - Rolla and Kannon
KFF + 19 ShootaBoyz - Klaw, 1 RokkitLauncha

Battlewagon - Rolla and Kannon
20 ShootaBoyz - Klaw, 1 RokkitLauncha

3 RokkitBuggies

2x 5 Lootas

17 Grotz (1500pts)

An army like this should have a bit more luck against a mech force that you don't want to assualt. I normally drive at full speed on turn 1, then slow down for a barrage from rokkits/kannons turn 2 (plus lootas are hopefully in a good position to keep shooting). Then if you manage to crack transports and haven't lost all your wagons, den hose dem tin can 'umies wit' da shootas! Plus you have Ghaz who can easily kill a squad of purifiers and MANz should do better than boyz as well (plus MANz are prob best against Crowe if you can reach him).

I haven't gone up against purifiers yet but I should do okay if I can try to keep him out of my side-arcs as much as possible to avoid psycannons/psyflemen.

Still, that cleansing flame is annoying. An ability that totally trashes one type of army, but is pretty ineffective against most others is clearly poorly designed, just look at JAWs. Plus I find it really annoying as an ork player when, even when I get the timing and the manouevering right and I charge, I'm still getting screwed over by an enemy ability that just activates whenever, wow, really difficult to use there (again just look at SW counter attack and wolf banner for a similar cheeseness). Harumph!

I may be wrong, but Purifiers can do either cleansing flame, or Force Weapon attacks. Which mean MegaNobz/Nobz, are still going to die like flies.

Please excuse my venting, but I hope purifiers are nerf'd when the FAQ comes out, because they are extremely powerful.

If an opponent takes them against orks, you are almost guaranteed a victory, and this battle report, only proves it.

But if GK didn't have access to an ability like Cleansing Flame, they would auto-lose to hordes instead of pulling out close wins. The elite of the elite, which is what GK are supposed to be, can't combat against numbers armries without a lot of help. That's why they weren't anywhere near as good as they should have been in the Daemonhunters codex. Increasing just their offensive capability makes them a glass cannon. We've all heard that in shooting, GKs die just like regular marines (and it's true). In CC, they need an edge to justify that they're more expensive.

The biggest reason Cleansing Flame hurts so much is the Fearless saves that Orks and 'Nids have to deal with. I think I'd like to see what it does to IG blobs. Their particular weakness, though, is that if the Commissar dies they whole unit just evaporates. The flame seems so powerful because it kills way more models than you're used to. Consider, though, that without it GKs might not stand a chance.

It's not that it should be completely taken away, but maybe something like, oh, it only goes off on the controlling player's turn, instead of every Assault phase (since, you know, there's two assault phases every turn) Or just on the first turn of assault. maybe only on the charge.

Good Bat-Rep!
Now your tied one a piece! Time for the Tie-Breaker!

ElCheezus wrote:But if GK didn't have access to an ability like Cleansing Flame, they would auto-lose to hordes instead of pulling out close wins. The elite of the elite, which is what GK are supposed to be, can't combat against numbers armries without a lot of help. That's why they weren't anywhere near as good as they should have been in the Daemonhunters codex. Increasing just their offensive capability makes them a glass cannon. We've all heard that in shooting, GKs die just like regular marines (and it's true). In CC, they need an edge to justify that they're more expensive.

The problem is you can say similar things about, say, Genestealers. They pay a premium for a really high initiative, because they don't have anything like the survivability of MEQs.

Cleansing Flame wouldn't bother me as much if it was at initiative and/or instead of making "normal" attacks for the round. That it goes off before any attacks do is part of what makes it so harsh; letting it add to combat resolution and the No Retreat consequences just make it worse.

Great Report.

mrfantastical wrote:I may be wrong, but Purifiers can do either cleansing flame, or Force Weapon attacks. Which mean MegaNobz/Nobz, are still going to die like flies.

Yeah good point, MANz would still be okay mopping up a squad of purifiers that's taken some casualties from shooting. You'd only want to attack if there's no more than 2 guys with force weapons left though really, or 2 force weaps + a justicar with DHammer. Statistically they'd hit twice, wound once and kill off 1 MAN. Then you get 8PK attacks which should finish em off (although the DHammer Justicar would prob kill another at Init1). Not great, but better than loosing 2/3 of a squad of boys to 3 guys. It still seems like they should be good vs Crowe though...depending on what powers his daemon weap gets...

Anvildude wrote:It's not that it should be completely taken away, but maybe something like, oh, it only goes off on the controlling player's turn, instead of every Assault phase (since, you know, there's two assault phases every turn) Or just on the first turn of assault. maybe only on the charge.

Yeah I think only the turn when purifiers charge would be most fair. Even 1 blast of cleansing flame can make a horde squad take massive losses, so I think the pressure should be on the purifiers to get the charge if they want to use their wtfpwn ability against hordes.

TBH I think it would be reasonably balanced, as is, if purifiers could never be troops. It's when your opponent has a whole army with this ability when it gets a bit silly.

I think it's important for Cleansing Flame to take place before any attacks, or it has no defensive benefit. Maybe not having it count toward combat resolution would make it feel a little more balanced, since 'Nids and Orks wouldn't lose twice as many to it.

ElCheezus wrote:I think it's important for Cleansing Flame to take place before any attacks, or it has no defensive benefit. Maybe not having it count toward combat resolution would make it feel a little more balanced, since 'Nids and Orks wouldn't lose twice as many to it.

No defensive benefit? GKs have a higher initiative than orks, period. Tyranid hordes have zero access to anything like offensive grenades. I see plenty of benefit for combating true "hordes." Granted, the GKs might have to stand in terrain when facing genestealers (14-20 pts each), but that doesn't seem like too great of a disadvantage; they probably should anyway.

ElCheezus wrote:I think it's important for Cleansing Flame to take place before any attacks, or it has no defensive benefit. Maybe not having it count toward combat resolution would make it feel a little more balanced, since 'Nids and Orks wouldn't lose twice as many to it.

I dunno, I don't think an ability as powerful as that should be a defensive ability. But yeah, as you say, if it doesn't count towards combat res then it at least means that you aren't loosing another load to fearless or taking a Ld1 test to not die.

Unfortunately, after reading cleansing flame again, it looks unlikely that it'll be FAQed as any of us has suggested. The rule is pretty clear that it works in both players turns and that all wounds count as CC wounds for all purposes (i.e. combat res). So unless the FAQ will actually change the rule (unlikely) then it looks like this was the RAI.

Still, this sort of army is a worst case scenario and not every GK player is gonna bring this, so no point ranting anymore methinks.

ElCheezus wrote:But if GK didn't have access to an ability like Cleansing Flame, they would auto-lose to hordes instead of pulling out close wins.

What? Cleansing Flame is nice and all but even with Daemonhunters horde armies were not exactly running over an army filled with Stormbolters.

@Mega Armoured Northener:

I agree. I am seeing a trend from assault builds to more shooty builds in competitive gaming. That is because shooting (and/or speed) is needed to take on the most competitive builds out there - MSU armies.

My own tyranids have transitioned from an originally assault-based army with 3 trygons to a more shooty nid army with 8-9 hive guards, tyrannofex and 6 biovores. Competitive daemons have also changed. It used to be resilient/fighty fatecrusher lists with Fateweaver and a lot of bloodcrushers. Now the competitive daemon build is more of a shooty/fast tzeentch/slaanesh army with tzeentch heralds on chariots, lots of fiends, bolt horrors and bolt daemon princes (and perhaps Fateweaver).

I can see experienced ork players adjusting their armies to better handle the current meta.


@mrfantastical:

While purifiers have an advantage over orks, I would hardly call it a guaranteed victory (not even an "almost guaranteed victory"). In my previous battle between my purifier knights and Big Green's orks, I would've been table-wiped had I not conceded.


@ElCheezus:

As it is right now, I do think that Cleansing Flame is somewhat OP, but only against certain armies (namely tyranids and orks). But I don't think it is as gamebreaking as, say, Warp Quake is to a daemon army. GK's can absolutely do without Cleansing Flame. Sure, it'll make it a tougher battle against hordes, but they have the firepower to deal with them. A purgation unit with 4 incinerators in a psybolt razorback is only 150pts!!! Then they have the heavy incinerator on dreadknights and S5 stormbolter-spam as well. The GK's have the tools. It's just that purifiers make it so much easier, and they're good against ALL armies (Cleansing Flame or not).


@Anvildude:

I agree. I think it should be usuable only on the first turn of combat. That would make it a little less OP.



@Skarshak:

I'm sure we will play again. Big Green is already working on his new, improved BW orks. I'm not sure how he's tweaking his army, but I'm sure it's going to include more lootas.


@Janthkin:

Look on the bright side. At least tyranids are better off than orks against CF. They've got FNP and Shadows to help mitigate the potential damage. Of course that means you can't play your genestealers as aggressively as you may like and infiltrate them all over the place, but against the new GK's, you need to keep all your units close to Shadows units anyways.


@Mega Armoured Northener:

Ah, don't take away my purifier troops, nooooooooo....

Note that even if they don't become troops due to Crowe, the Grandmaster can still make them scoring via Grand Strategy (though I suppose D3 scoring purifiers is still better than 6 scoring purifiers).

But you can expect to see purifiers in a GK list just as you may see nobs/meganobs in an ork list. GK's can win without them, but they sure make it much easier to do so with them.