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2011/04/26 10:16:43
Subject: 2000pts The Greater Knights vs the Greater Good (Completed)
Good battle report jy2. It was a fun match. I failed two rolls for choosing what side my Kroot reserves come in. They both arrived on the left table edge!
In the long run, the lone Ghost Terminator probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game. I probably would have redirected my fire on the Strike squad in the back, but they would have gone to ground and you would remove the ones within TLOS, making it impossible to see the rest.
Against any other kind of army, tank shocking marines would be bad, but your Grey Knight's lack Daemon Hammer, so it worked out well.
Thanks for letting me borrow your guardsmen. It turns out my package arrived late, so next time I won't have to proxy anymore Kroot (well maybe 4, but that will change). I also recently purchase 50 Fantasy Warhounds, so expect a 100 Kroot + 50 Hounds battle this summer.
mega_bassist wrote:Awesome report! I didn't see the Tank Shock coming...or working for that matter!
Good job on both sides...Bu, I'm pretty sure if there were some more Firewarriors, the Tau would've done a tad better
Actually if you do that math, Kroots will slightly deal more damage than Fire Warriors:
120 points: 12 Fire Warriors vs. T4/3+ = 1.33 dead
119 points: 17 Kroots vs T4/3+ = 1.42 dead
There's pro and cons between the two:
-Fire Warriors have 6" longer range, a 4+ armor save, AP5, and are better against MC's.
-Kroots are cheaper, better in assault, can infiltrate, and have a better armor save against shooting if they are in forest.
I use Fire Warriors to hold objectives and Kroots to bubble wrap and protect my Crisis Suits.
Another entertaining and enlightening battle report. Thanks for the table overview and the quarters overview photos. I found this report your best so far in terms of its clarity.
Everything else being equal, do you wish you had your dreadnoughts instead of the DreadKnights?
mega_bassist wrote:Awesome report! I didn't see the Tank Shock coming...or working for that matter!
Good job on both sides...Bu, I'm pretty sure if there were some more Firewarriors, the Tau would've done a tad better
Actually if you do that math, Kroots will slightly deal more damage than Fire Warriors:
120 points: 12 Fire Warriors vs. T4/3+ = 1.33 dead
119 points: 17 Kroots vs T4/3+ = 1.42 dead
There's pro and cons between the two:
-Fire Warriors have 6" longer range, a 4+ armor save, AP5, and are better against MC's.
-Kroots are cheaper, better in assault, can infiltrate, and have a better armor save against shooting if they are in forest.
I use Fire Warriors to hold objectives and Kroots to bubble wrap and protect my Crisis Suits.
Yeah, I'd have to disagree with them dealing more damage. Sure, on paper they can do more damage shooting, but they have no armor save, shorter distance, and a weaker weapon. If something shoots them, they will die. If you ask me, that means they're worse than Fire Warriors.
As for Assault, sure they might be better, but they still suck. I've been let down by them waaaaaaayyyy too many times. I really only use them for their Infiltrate rule...Honestly, I barely ever play with a forest on the field, so their Fieldcraft is useless to me.
Sorry, I don't mean to argue or be TFG, but I can't stand the Kroot. They suck a CC (something their supposed to be good at), they suck more are shooting, and only last one round of attacks from enemies...Plus, they're also only 3 points cheaper then a Fire Warrior
Kroots suck at close combat? You might not be using them right.
I must admit that I rarely use kroots and that most of the time get them killed for nothing because I misused them.
But once I used them to their (almost) full potential: I deployed a fairly large squad in front of my firebase to protect my long-range units. When my opponent deep-struck a 5-man terminator squad next to it, the kroots engaged them and delayed the unit long enough, before being wiped out, for my Shas'O to rain plasmic death upon them.
The point is, as SabrX used them here, kroots can be effective if used in large numbers to protect your valuable backfield units and intercept any wrongdoers.
They will of course be decimated against close-combat dedicated opponents but it isn't a problem as long as they buy you enough time for your damage-dealers to take care of the threat. Thus the use of a large squad to soak up damage.
Sure they will easily die to concentrated fire, but remember that it's less fire directed at your long-range units. Even by dying they'll fulfill their bodyguard role.
And I think this is what caused the demise of our good friend jy2, he obliterated the protection units but was then wiped out by the damage-dealing units left mostly intact.
"this is a first in naval history, a torpedo sunk a truck!" McHale's Navy
"In confusion there is profit."
2011/04/26 21:20:40
Subject: 2000pts The Greater Knights vs the Greater Good (Completed)
M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:Kroots suck at close combat? You might not be using them right.
I must admit that I rarely use kroots and that most of the time get them killed for nothing because I misused them.
But once I used them to their (almost) full potential: I deployed a fairly large squad in front of my firebase to protect my long-range units. When my opponent deep-struck a 5-man terminator squad next to it, the kroots engaged them and delayed the unit long enough, before being wiped out, for my Shas'O to rain plasmic death upon them.
The point is, as SabrX used them here, kroots can be effective if used in large numbers to protect your valuable backfield units and intercept any wrongdoers. They will of course be decimated against close-combat dedicated opponents but it isn't a problem as long as they buy you enough time for your damage-dealers to take care of the threat. Thus the use of a large squad to soak up damage.
Sure they will easily die to concentrated fire, but remember that it's less fire directed at your long-range units. Even by dying they'll fulfill their bodyguard role.
And I think this is what caused the demise of our good friend jy2, he obliterated the protection units but was then wiped out by the damage-dealing units left mostly intact.
The only way I've found them to be good in assault is if I have a full squad, and the spam rush the enemy. Other than that, they're just human shields. I just with they were a little better in CC is all
Yeah, he used them effectivly, but they lasted one good round, then they fell apart...Thee full squads were made into sticky Kroot Goo or were fleeing the enemy. How's that effective?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/26 21:42:16
Because effectiveness is not just what the units does by it's own but what it did for the army as a whole.
A lot of people on the internet talk about unit effectiveness and cost/effectiveness ratios but they don't often take in account the unit's synergy with the rest of the army.
So yes, supposedly being a close-combat horde and getting wiped-out by non-dedicated close-combat units (meaning that Interceptors are shooting/close-combat unit not pure close-combat) is a huge failure.
But, a buffer unit delaying the enemy, whilst even inflicting some damage, thus allowing the rest of the army to blast them apart is a success.
(But I'm not sure the kroots themselves would agree with that...)
"this is a first in naval history, a torpedo sunk a truck!" McHale's Navy
"In confusion there is profit."
2011/04/26 22:13:02
Subject: 2000pts The Greater Knights vs the Greater Good (Completed)
M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:Because effectiveness is not just what the units does by it's own but what it did for the army as a whole.
A lot of people on the internet talk about unit effectiveness and cost/effectiveness ratios but they don't often take in account the unit's synergy with the rest of the army.
So yes, supposedly being a close-combat horde and getting wiped-out by non-dedicated close-combat units (meaning that Interceptors are shooting/close-combat unit not pure close-combat) is a huge failure.
But, a buffer unit delaying the enemy, whilst even inflicting some damage, thus allowing the rest of the army to blast them apart is a success.
(But I'm not sure the kroots themselves would agree with that...)
I completely understand where you're coming from, but I just think that spending points on a unit to commit suicide is just...inefficient. Sure, I can throw some Kroot and Kroot Hounds into and enemy and watch them get squished, then blast the enemy next turn when they're wide open, but to me it's a huge waste of points.
Despite how I feel about them, I still use one squad as either bait or human shields, depending on the game and situation. Normally they do their job well, but like I stated, I wish they were a little more deadly in CC
I completely understand where you're coming from, but I just think that spending points on a unit to commit suicide is just...inefficient. Sure, I can throw some Kroot and Kroot Hounds into and enemy and watch them get squished, then blast the enemy next turn when they're wide open, but to me it's a huge waste of points.
Despite how I feel about them, I still use one squad as either bait or human shields, depending on the game and situation. Normally they do their job well, but like I stated, I wish they were a little more deadly in CC
I can understand that using screening and/or sacrificial units can be heart-breaking; some times you wonder why you just haven't fielded damage-dealing or support units. But as I more regularly field Grey Knights (since 3rd edition, still haven't played the 5th ed codex) I rarely get to use any.
And yes, I can feel your pain for kroots getting wiped out in close-combat; mine even got killed by a few hormaguants once! But for their defense, it was one of my first times playing them and I completely failed...
And now back on topic!
All of this very interesting discussion with mega-bassist to say that I feel that SabrX's kroot tactic was valid.
Although, a defensive strategy did cost him the game as he didn't have enough time to capture or contest jy2's objective after having dealt with his army.
"this is a first in naval history, a torpedo sunk a truck!" McHale's Navy
"In confusion there is profit."
2011/04/26 23:10:47
Subject: 2000pts The Greater Knights vs the Greater Good (Completed)
mega_bassist wrote:
I completely understand where you're coming from, but I just think that spending points on a unit to commit suicide is just...inefficient. Sure, I can throw some Kroot and Kroot Hounds into and enemy and watch them get squished, then blast the enemy next turn when they're wide open, but to me it's a huge waste of points.
But what is the alternative? You need screening units, and Fire Warriors are even worse in that than the Kroot.
I think that Kroot are pretty good, they just aren't necessarily that good in the most obvious way (ie. killing MEQs in assaults). Personally though I would not use squads of 20, I think they are not efficient that way, owing to easiness by which they can be swept if and when the combat goes badly. It's really frustrating to have a large squad, which is then destroyed because you lost the combat by 1 wound...
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker!
2011/04/27 00:35:02
Subject: 2000pts The Greater Knights vs the Greater Good (Completed)
M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:Codex: Grey Knights p.40
"If Mordrak is killed, the Ghost Knights disappear."
So yes, that lone Ghost Knight shouldn't have stayed in play.
Thanks for the reference.
At the time, I was not aware of that rule. However, had I been aware, I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Why? Had I been aware of the rule, Mordrak would have still been alive instead of the last ghost knight. I allocated a lot of plasma shots on Mordrak out in the open due to his iron halo (I allocated 3 plasma shots on him that 1 Tau shooting phase). Had I been aware of his "limitations", I would have instead allocated the missile pods on him instead and he would have lived. Not only that, but I would have had a good chance to "regenerate" a ghost knight.
SabrX wrote:Good battle report jy2. It was a fun match. I failed two rolls for choosing what side my Kroot reserves come in. They both arrived on the left table edge!
I was actually waiting for your kroots to come in on my side. The moment you did, I would have shunted my interceptors back to my objective and stormboltered them to death. Wouldn't have changed the result of the game, but I had a contingency plan for them.
In the long run, the lone Ghost Terminator probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game. I probably would have redirected my fire on the Strike squad in the back, but they would have gone to ground and you would remove the ones within TLOS, making it impossible to see the rest.
Agreed. Had I been aware, Mordrak might have still been alive instead of the ghost knight.
Against any other kind of army, tank shocking marines would be bad, but your Grey Knight's lack Daemon Hammer, so it worked out well.
Gotta convert some thunderhammers, but honestly, I don't use terminators much.
Thanks for letting me borrow your guardsmen. It turns out my package arrived late, so next time I won't have to proxy anymore Kroot (well maybe 4, but that will change). I also recently purchase 50 Fantasy Warhounds, so expect a 100 Kroot + 50 Hounds battle this summer.
No prob. Gotta warn you though, the next time we meet, I'm going to bring my balanced all-comer's list. No more of these gimmicky tactics. It's going to be my Crowe-purifier-dread list. That means there's going to be a lot of dead kroots/hounds against my 5-man squads.
svendrex wrote:Just a quick note on the GK list
I presume that you took the Teleport Homer so you could use it with "Summoning"
The general consensus at the moment is that the homer does not work for that power. I think there are a couple of YMDC threads about it.
I'll be sure to check them out, though I didn't actually get to use that tactic in this game.
randyc9999 wrote:Another entertaining and enlightening battle report. Thanks for the table overview and the quarters overview photos. I found this report your best so far in terms of its clarity.
Everything else being equal, do you wish you had your dreadnoughts instead of the DreadKnights?
Not in this list. This army was to test out the shunt-punch tactic, and for that, I needed the dreadknights. In my all-comer's list, I use dreadnoughts instead.
M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:
Although, a defensive strategy did cost him the game as he didn't have enough time to capture or contest jy2's objective after having dealt with his army.
Though in all fairness, he was planning to outflank both kroot squads on my side to capture/contest my objective. It just didn't pan out when both his kroots came in on his side (he had a 2/3 chance for either units to come on my side).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/27 00:41:35
SabrX wrote: Against any other kind of army, tank shocking marines would be bad, but your Grey Knight's lack Daemon Hammer, so it worked out well.
I dunno about that often you can tank shock around the power fist / daemon hammer / melta gun (in the case of other marines)
and even if you can't, and you need to tank shock through a power fist, you should still probably do it.
DoG fails unless the vehicle stops moving, so thats 2, 4,5,6 on penetrating hits, and 6, 4 on glancing hits.
Against AV13 (hammerhead) a single auto hitting power fist attack has a exactly a 1/6 chance of successfully stopping your tankshock, and a 5/6 chance of dying. I'd take those odds, especially considering the carnage your suits were capable of.
even an av12 devil fish only has a 27.7% chance of being stopped. Obviously your odds are worse against a melta or combi melta, but whatever! not a worry in the GK dex
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/27 01:21:34
Agreed. Powerfist or no, I'm going to tankshock that unit out of terrain (unless he has a meltagun that can DoG in my path). The reward is much greater than the risk.
M'Kachen's Nemesis has the Kroot strategy nailed down.
The Kroot are mere speed bumps. Yes they'll die the turn they get assaulted, but that delays jy2 from assaulting my vital Crisis Suits. Hopefully they'll inflict some casualties before getting swept away, which will allow my Crisis Team to whittle them down in next turn shooting. The lack of fearless or moral is a blessing in disguise.
Initially I fielded 3 squads of 20 Kroots in a triple layer defense. The plan was to have jy2 slaughter the first line, but advance no further due to the second line. However, jy2's interceptors foiled my plans and were able to multi-charge into the Kroot's flanks.
Well played jy2. The moment my meat shields disappear, I was worried the rest of my army will crumble to your Terminators and Interceptors. That lone Gun Drone and Hammerhead saved the day.
@jy2:
Had I played against the GK list you used against my Sisters, I probably would have lost. After reading your GK vs. Ork Battle Report, I've no doubt your purifiers will decimate my Kroot horde. My only chances will be to cripple the purifier's transports and whittle them down. But it ain't easy if you are fielding 6 Psydreads, 3 of which are venerable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/27 04:53:43
Tank Shock is in the BRB, it is not Tau specific. Basically you pivot on the spot declare a distance and drive forward, models in the way have to take a ld test to move away.
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