What's the problem with all paladins?

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**bedeporter**

personally I think people write off paladins too quickly. You can outmanoeuver me all you want but if you want to claim objectives you have to come near me some time. I played de last week and came out with a draw, thanks to some trully awful reserves rolls on my part, and I run 2 paladin squads with draigo, a libby, purifiers and a strike squad. Many people underestimate the anti-tank capacity of a psycannon too, the minute the raiders or venoms stray too close they go down. I think your list would be fun to play and give many people a surprise as to how survivable it would be.

**Redbeard**

Sometimes it is okay to run an army with weaknesses just to see how well you can do with them.

I think paladin's real issue isn't so much their foils, but what minimal potential they have to hurt other armies.

I think the smart way to buy them is to take squads of 10, and, if necessary, combat squad. You don't lose any heavy weapons, and you spread the whole-unit buffs across more guys (psybolts, and possibly the apothecary).

10 guys, including the apothecary, is what, 4 psycannons, 5 stormbolters and a doc? Split evenly, you're looking at 8 assault cannon shots and 4/6 S5 bolters up until the point you're in combat, with the potential to shoot at 2 units. That sure doesn't sound like a lot.

**Polonius**

Yeah, the limited damage potential is a problem in shooting, but they're also pretty good in HtH.

I can take servo skulls with the libby, so I can deep strike a little better.

Right now I get rolled with armies like Mech IG, battlewagon orks, or missle spam wolves. Not every game, but it's not like I'm winning big tournaments. Why not try something wacky.

**Exergy**

Polonius wrote:

Ok, I will get laughed at and then tabled. Undersood. I'm guessing you win a lot of sportsmanship awards at the tournaments you go to.

well i would be laughing inwardly and hopefully not at a tournament.

often i dont take the shooty kabal list and instead run a more assaulty DE. I dont know how that would fare but likely I would get into CC on the first turn and then we would have a very very long combat. I dont know how it would end, but it would be epic either way.

**Polonius**

I think that's my point. I realize some things will pound it. But so far the four things that I'm supposed to be afraid of are: shooty kabal DE, sisters of battle, tau, and demolisher cannons. Not exactly the most common armies/units.

I agree with Redbeard that the problem may be killing enough stuff to prevent contesting objectives.

**bedeporter**

I dissagree. psycannons and storm bolters with the odd psilencer or incinerator pack a heavy punch.

**Grundz**

bedeporter wrote:I dissagree. psycannons and storm bolters with the odd psilencer or incinerator pack a heavy punch.

but you can only shoot one unit, if you manage to obliterate a unit (unlikely) you are only punching down a transport and the guys inside are fine.

really big multi-assaults are the only way to rack up the damage against MSU armies with paladins

**bedeporter**

You do know that there are ways to encorporate paladins into a more rounded grey knights army. I'm not advocating for whole paladin armies, just for paladins in general.

**schadenfreude**

bedeporter wrote:You do know that there are ways to encorporate paladins into a more rounded grey knights army. I'm not advocating for whole paladin armies, just for paladins in general.

Regular GM can make them a scoring unit. 5 Pallies + GM in a redeemer or 7+GM in a crusader.

**Cerebrium**

It's fun, but ultimately doomed to fail.

**Grundz**

I'm with you, most of my GK lists will have a unit or two of 1-2 pallies with hammers/falchions that will deep strike

also bare bones units of 5 with psycannon are more firepower per point than terminators.

**bedeporter**

I know grandmasters can make them scoring. I was simply saying that I think paladins are more effective when encorporated into a more, 'standard' list.

**whitedragon**

If all you need to buy is "Draigo" and you have an army, I'd say go for it.

**InquisitorVaron**

This list should always win in anhilation. Split a Paladin or two away and put them hiding away. All you need too do is kill 5 units.

I like the theory but its not practical. My 1500P Orks would win. Just chuck 80 Boyz MANz Battlewagon and 6 Kanz in your face.

**daedalus-templarius**

Make sure you have some psyrifle dreads for fire support.

They make transports go pop.

**wuestenfux**

I'd opt for a GK army with more synergy. Such lists are better at the tournament level.
For instance, Purifiers are good vs hordes and have decent shooting abilities, Paladins are good at holding the centre,
Interceptors can take on isolated squads or shooty units in the backfield, Psyfleman Dreads are awesome at giving fire support, and so on.

**Exergy**

InquisitorVaron wrote:This list should always win in anhilation. Split a Paladin or two away and put them hiding away. All you need too do is kill 5 units.

I like the theory but its not practical. My 1500P Orks would win. Just chuck 80 Boyz MANz Battlewagon and 6 Kanz in your face.

and what if your opponent can find that one paladin and kill it. Mopping up isn't that difficult.

**althathir**

Polonius wrote:I have a box of old GK terminators, mostly painted, and I realized I could build the following:

Draigo
Libby (assorted powers)

Two squads of 10 pallys, 4 psycannons each, psybolt ammo, 2++ stick, banner, assorted weapons

Would this list be completely unviable?

Polonius wrote:Hmm, well, I've been thinking about it, and I guess I should have articulate my idea better.

I mean, clearly it's a gadget army, but it's not just all paladins for theme. By taking all terminators, you're elminating the usefulness of most enemy weapons at range. Compared to basic termies, the paladins get two big boosts: an extra wound, and a second psycannon per five men. In the current missile heavy environment, I would think that having two big bricks of 2+ saves could be very frustrating.

I do concede that range will be an issue, however it seems to me that there are some good work arounds. Deep strike seems very risky with so many models, but I can make at least one, and both 66% of the time, scout if i need to. I can start everything but one HQ on the board in Dawn of War. I can combat squad into four units if needed. In kill points missions and against any army that needs to come close, I'll have a pretty strong advantage.

This isn't a question of building the best possible 1850 list, but rather a question of trying to decide if I should convert and paint a 8 arms and build and paint more terminators, which is all I would need to do to get this army up to snuff. Then I could throw it in a sabol platoon and keep it in my car for wheneve I want to game. Or even take it with me on an airplane.

Maybe I've just had two bad games against paladins, but I've watched them shrug off a lot of firepower. Admittedly they were delivered in a land raider, but with Draigo's 3++ and EW coupled with a 2++ staff, it'll take a pretty concentrated amount of S8 AP2 shooting to do a lot of damage.

So, given all of that (and I'd almost certainly take Shrouding as one of my libby powers, along with might of titans), I see this list holding its own against most armies I see at store tournaments and the like.

I don't think all paladins is a very good army, but for a small easy to transport army it is about as good as you can hope for. It has a really low opportunity cost for you, and if it doesn't work out you can you can use most of the models in other grey knight builds for example a GM w/ a squad of paladins, and a couple termie troop choices, and use the points you save for dreads, transports, etc.

So if I were in your position I would go for it, personally I think the list would be kinda of boring either your opponent can handle that many termies or they can't, but I love the ideal of an army that would be that easy to transport (Its actually one of the big selling points for marine armies in general, transporting eldar was a bitch before battle foam)

**Exergy**

Polonius wrote:
I guess in that case, I'd probably combat squad, so I can have four shooting units, and deploy/scout to push the DE back and far as possible. It'd be an uphill battle, and I'd probably lose, but with four squads, each with 8 S8 shots, they ravagers won't be around too long once I get into range (which will only take a turn of scout + movement + run) Eventually the raiders run out of room to hide.

I'd be a hell of a game, and might come to mission and going first.

psycannons are always S7. Psybolt doesnt buff them to S8.

Going first is important, especilly to DE. If forced to go second they usually reserve everything and come on the table in their skimmers on turn 2 and 3.

**Polonius**

Yeah, I defiintly am going to try it out. There's a lot to be said for getting an army for so little cost and time.

Are there any GK tactica, or threads I should look at if I decide to branch out?

**bedeporter**

Yes! It was written for the daemonhunters codex but I find it still applies. It is called the way of the water warrior, search it. It's long but the author has done a very good job on it.

**althathir**

I would also look up the 3++ blog, kirby and company have alot of grey knight content.

**martin74**

there is nothing wrong with them. it is just that it seems i am playing against ork nobz that are all outfited differently, so, you save each individual model. Yes, i can out manuver them any day with most armies, it is just not a fun army to play against. so far it seems that i play my turn in about half the time it takes a GK player to do his turn with all the extra dice rolls.

**Polonius**

Redbeard wrote:
I think paladin's real issue isn't so much their foils, but what minimal potential they have to hurt other armies.

Exergy wrote:psycannons are always S7. Psybolt doesnt buff them to S8.

Aha. That answers my question. I thought psybolt ammo made psycannons S8, which made them credible threats against tanks at 24". It's not a huge deal, but coupled with the other problems the army now has way too many holes.

thanks to all for helping me out.

So now what do I do with 22 grey knight terminators?

**notabot187**

Polonius wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
I think paladin's real issue isn't so much their foils, but what minimal potential they have to hurt other armies.

Exergy wrote:psycannons are always S7. Psybolt doesnt buff them to S8.

Aha. That answers my question. I thought psybolt ammo made psycannons S8, which made them credible threats against tanks at 24". It's not a huge deal, but coupled with the other problems the army now has way too many holes.

thanks to all for helping me out.

So now what do I do with 22 grey knight terminators?

Use them as a mixed paladin GK force? If you are playing 2k, its only half your points (10 paladins, and 10 termies). So you should have enough left to buy some PAGKs and HQs (not draigo, but a cheapish GM might do).

**Artemo**

At 24" a psycannon is a more capable threat against AV 13+ than lascannon or melta. Melta does surpass it at half range, but not by a huge amount.

Against AV12 a psycannon is slightly mnore effective than a lascannon in terms of numbers of penetrations (though the lascannon is slighttly better overall as its penetrations are more effective)

**Avariel**

All paladins has a few issues just looking at the units on paper that make them difficult to recommend using in a tournament.

Mobility. Unless you buy expensive land raiders you going to be walking. This can be a big issue in dawn of war and spearhead 5 objective games you tend to see in tournaments. Yes you can deepstrike or outflank but your still moving only 6 a turn if you want to shoot.

Few units. With only a few units covering 5 objectives can be difficult especially with the above limited mobility.

If your not playing these tournament style missions, all paladins might be workable. Try it out and have fun with your all paladin army. They actually seem really mean putting out alot of fire with 4 psycannons and lots of power weapon attacks if falchions do indeed give +2 attack.

**rabidaskal**

Sounds to me that for a minimal amount of work you can quickly make an uncommon army build that people don't field too often. Yes you won't win any GTs but you have a few tricks plus people will probably be unfamiliar with the build and maybe underestimate it (if the feedback here is anything to go by).

Most importantly it will look awesome on the table. I say go for it!

**wuestenfux**

Yeah, I defiintly am going to try it out. There's a lot to be said for getting an army for so little cost and time.

This is certainly positive aspect of the army.
What pt level are you aiming for? And what the costs?

**Jaon**

Its viable beyond the point of "Theres no point playing because this army fails" if that makes sense. You will be able to win, but because of the small model count, your going to run into difficulties with certain lists more often than you normally would. But theres some lists your also going to pwnt.

Try diversifying your squads, outflanking is a good idea, you could even go (for an insane amount of points)

Draigo - 275pts

Paladin Squad 1 - 400pts
Halberd/Psycannon
Sword/Spycannon
Daemonhammer
Falchions
Apothecary

Paladin Squad 2 - 400pts
Halberd/Psycannon
Sword/Spycannon
Daemonhammer
Falchions
Apothecary

Paladin Squad 3 - 400pts
Halberd/Psycannon
Sword/Spycannon
Daemonhammer
Falchions
Apothecary

Paladin Squad 4 - 400pts
Halberd/Psycannon
Sword/Spycannon
Daemonhammer
Falchions
Apothecary

Total: 1875pts.... :S