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I have a box of old GK terminators, mostly painted, and I realized I could build the following:

Draigo
Libby (assorted powers)

Two squads of 10 pallys, 4 psycannons each, psybolt ammo, 2++ stick, banner, assorted weapons

Would this list be completely unviable?

Polonius wrote:I have a box of old GK terminators, mostly painted, and I realized I could build the following:

Draigo
Libby (assorted powers)

Two squads of 10 pallys, 4 psycannons each, psybolt ammo, 2++ stick, banner, assorted weapons

Would this list be completely unviable?

It would be fun, but yes, 2 unit armies are nonviable. Paladins don't survive anti tank fire, and you have no tanks so you will get shot up by every AP2 and S8+ weapon the enemy haves. Cover only helps so much, and your armies threat range is just infantry movement plus 24 inches. Get some fire support if you want paladins.

You want to know why? Your firing range is 24". Do you know what else is?


Poof. Pallies are gone. Stuff like Meltaguns, Lascannons, Lance weaponry...too much High Strength Low AP stuff shooting at them, if there's an absence of other stuff to shoot at.

Makes objective missions a pain too.

Also +1 to demolisher cannon in all its forms.

You could add Coteaz and a few units of cheap henchman warriors to give you cover saves. But it's still tough to use.

Actually now that i think about it, a much better list would just split up the pallys.

Mannahnin wrote:You could add Coteaz and a few units of cheap henchman warriors to give you cover saves. But it's still tough to use.

Once you move away from the "woo paladins only" theme you run into the normal real problems of making a "real" army. Such as capturing your own objectives, long range anti tank, anti horde, etc.

You'd be screwed if you went to a tournament, but it would be fun and look cool. Very cool.

It's a good list..

..for stomping newbies at GW.

Hmm, well, I've been thinking about it, and I guess I should have articulate my idea better.

I mean, clearly it's a gadget army, but it's not just all paladins for theme. By taking all terminators, you're elminating the usefulness of most enemy weapons at range. Compared to basic termies, the paladins get two big boosts: an extra wound, and a second psycannon per five men. In the current missile heavy environment, I would think that having two big bricks of 2+ saves could be very frustrating.

I do concede that range will be an issue, however it seems to me that there are some good work arounds. Deep strike seems very risky with so many models, but I can make at least one, and both 66% of the time, scout if i need to. I can start everything but one HQ on the board in Dawn of War. I can combat squad into four units if needed. In kill points missions and against any army that needs to come close, I'll have a pretty strong advantage.

This isn't a question of building the best possible 1850 list, but rather a question of trying to decide if I should convert and paint a 8 arms and build and paint more terminators, which is all I would need to do to get this army up to snuff. Then I could throw it in a sabol platoon and keep it in my car for wheneve I want to game. Or even take it with me on an airplane.

Maybe I've just had two bad games against paladins, but I've watched them shrug off a lot of firepower. Admittedly they were delivered in a land raider, but with Draigo's 3++ and EW coupled with a 2++ staff, it'll take a pretty concentrated amount of S8 AP2 shooting to do a lot of damage.

So, given all of that (and I'd almost certainly take Shrouding as one of my libby powers, along with might of titans), I see this list holding its own against most armies I see at store tournaments and the like.

coupled with a 2++ staff, it'll take a pretty concentrated amount of S8 AP2 shooting to do a lot of damage

The stave only works in cc.

I've played a paladin list in about two dozen games now with about as many wins as losses (actually slightly more wins) and several draws. Admittedly these have mainly been at 2000+ and using land raider or storm raven delivery, but while mobility and objectives are an issue, with shrouding and sanctuary, warding staves, apothecaries and Draigo, they're tougher to kill on the table than some people seem to think.

They're not easy to play though, and you can't really afford to make many mistakes (unlike big armies where a few miscalculations can usually not have catastrophic consequences).

I would worry more with an all foot list, and I think you might need to take risks with deep striking from time to time -- but scout moves can, as you say, sometimes let you get forward far enough.

And as you say, it's small and cheap and fun.

Hmm, I didn't realize that about the stave. That makes it less good.

I'm looking at this from a cost/benefit perspective. I literally already have 17 painted terminators. I don't want to run just another GK army (there are plenty out there already), and when I do build one, it'll be with used stuff when the tide turns. So, for a minimal dollar investment (pretty much only Draigo), a raid of the old bitz bin, and a weeks worth of painting, I can have a playable army.

And, if it turns out to be total crap, I still have 20 terminators, plus the painted arms I pulled off, and I have the core of terminator heavy list.

Bad for objective mission, as you would have to split the army literally into two parts to take two seperate objectives, not to mention the possibility of throwing a dice and then having MORE than two objectives for the both sides during the mission choosing session.

It's not viable as it is to suit a normal Warhammer 40k mission, so no, it's a bad idea to have this list.

Polonius wrote:I have a box of old GK terminators, mostly painted, and I realized I could build the following:

Draigo
Libby (assorted powers)

Two squads of 10 pallys, 4 psycannons each, psybolt ammo, 2++ stick, banner, assorted weapons

Would this list be completely unviable?

no, it will get shot to hell too quickly. at that point level DE and IG can take 30 or so str 8 ap 1-2 weapons and table you in 2 turns of average shooting.

Why are Paladins bad? Because you're paying 55 points for 2W Terminators who can't take storm shields. When you're putting down 20 models in comparison to my 1750 army well...I hope you enjoy rolling armour saves.

Paladins are a neat idea, and everyone thought they were the bomb when they thought they could have a 3++. As is, they're a nice gimmick, good at Annihilation missions and good if you *really* want a GK army on the cheap, but considering their points cost they just do not have the survivability.

+1 to the Demolisher/Vindicator making your tiny, pretty army cry.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Paladins are a neat idea, and everyone thought they were the bomb when they thought they could have a 3++.
L. Wrex

I was assuming they would have a 4++/2++ force stave.

they aren't the greatest, but are a pretty fun army to play IMHO

-I run one big squad, then many 1-2 man squads who all deep strike.

Exergy wrote:no, it will get shot to hell too quickly. at that point level DE and IG can take 30 or so str 8 ap 1-2 weapons and table you in 2 turns of average shooting.

OK, I'm not gonna deny that long range AP2 shooting is a problem, but your example is a bit far fetched. Yes, DE and IG can take that many shots, but rarely do. Secondly, if they do, many of them will be very short range (where my army becomes much stronger). Yeah, if I roll a pitched battle mission against an IG gunline my day became tougher if I charge the guns. Which is why I have some options (deep strike off servo skulls, outflank, whatever).

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Why are Paladins bad? Because you're paying 55 points for 2W Terminators who can't take storm shields. When you're putting down 20 models in comparison to my 1750 army well...I hope you enjoy rolling armour saves.

Paladins are a neat idea, and everyone thought they were the bomb when they thought they could have a 3++. As is, they're a nice gimmick, good at Annihilation missions and good if you *really* want a GK army on the cheap, but considering their points cost they just do not have the survivability.

+1 to the Demolisher/Vindicator making your tiny, pretty army cry.

L. Wrex

Not to sound hopelessly contrarian, but have you ever shot at terminators with a demolisher cannon? It's rarely as awesome as you'd hope. If I spread out, you'll get three or four with a good shot, and I'll have cover or invulnerable saves. Yeah, losing even two models hurts, but at that point I can shoot back at the vindicator/demolisher.

Maybe I'm just thinking about my current tournie environment, where I rarely see demolisher cannons or tons of lascannons/dark lances.

Even 30 S 8 AP1/2 weapomns take more than 3 turns to table paladins, even assuming all 30 weapons can be brought to bear and the GK player doesn't, for some unfathomable reason, use cover.

It's fair to say that such a list would be unusually nasty. But of course one doesn't always encounter space faries or imperial weaklings, and they don't always bring so many AP1/2 weapons.

But palladins shoot a lott, that's got to be worth something shurley?

Eather teleport them in and get 8 shots at the tank, or give them scout with draigo and walk in your first turn. Usualy when we deploy we have about 12" deployment sone with 24" between us. If the paladins walk in scout move and also in there own turn they should be around 24" away from moast of your oponents anti tanks. Just lett rip with those psycannons and se them fall. (You should probably back this up with some other bodies in case you meet orks or nids.)

I don't want to sound like a guy that's made up his mind, I just feel like my actual question isn't being answered.

I concede that there are some uphill battles for this list. Some bad matchups, and some tough missions. That's true of many armies, although perhaps this will be to a greater extent.

I don't want to win a GT with it. I'm just curious if it'll be fun and effective enough to win more than it loses, assuming I play it effectively. In my local community, I'm solidly in the upper third of all players, so I can take a slighly gimped list and probably win more than I lose.

Maybe I should just proxie a few games, and see what happens.

Polonius wrote:

Exergy wrote:no, it will get shot to hell too quickly. at that point level DE and IG can take 30 or so str 8 ap 1-2 weapons and table you in 2 turns of average shooting.

OK, I'm not gonna deny that long range AP2 shooting is a problem, but your example is a bit far fetched. Yes, DE and IG can take that many shots, but rarely do. Secondly, if they do, many of them will be very short range (where my army becomes much stronger). Yeah, if I roll a pitched battle mission against an IG gunline my day became tougher if I charge the guns. Which is why I have some options (deep strike off servo skulls, outflank, whatever).

its not far fetched. Many DE players(shooty kabal) do try to maximize darklight weaponry. Almost every list has 3 ravagers and 4-5 raiders. Thats 14 dark lances(36") right there. Then 2-3 units of trueborn and 3-4 warriros with a blaster and you have 16 blasters(18") The rest will be mounted in venoms and your army is not immune to splinter weapons(practically but not totally)

So the highly mobile DE player can either decide to stay over 24" away from you and take 5 turns or get within 18" and take 2 turns. That your army has more shooting inside 24" doesnt really matter. you can only kill 2 units a turn and you might not be able to do that. If your 700 pt death star blasts a 125pt unit to hell it is wasting its time. With cover and FNP it is not guarenteed you could even wipe a 5 man squad.

so what if you can deep strike. You come down, shoot one unit(probably just downing its transport) and then you get shot up. seems to me deep striking is a terrible idea as it means half your army will likely be in reserve while the other half gets shot. 20 paladins move 6" a turn. They are one of the slowest armies in the game. It matters not if you can outflank or deepstrike. you will get outmanunvered

Well, the next time I play against DE will be the first, so I don't worry too much about that.

I guess in that case, I'd probably combat squad, so I can have four shooting units, and deploy/scout to push the DE back and far as possible. It'd be an uphill battle, and I'd probably lose, but with four squads, each with 8 S8 shots, they ravagers won't be around too long once I get into range (which will only take a turn of scout + movement + run) Eventually the raiders run out of room to hide.

I'd be a hell of a game, and might come to mission and going first.

I see the Darklances as a more realistic issue than the vindicators. I can count on one hand the number of vindicators and demolisher (combined) that I've played against in six years of tournament play.

That doesn't mean not to play paladins, but to be aware of what your weaknesses are. I don't think demolisher cannons are that weakness. I'm considering doing a mostly paladin force myself, just to have a very small army.

Polonius wrote:Well, the next time I play against DE will be the first, so I don't worry too much about that.

I guess in that case, I'd probably combat squad, so I can have four shooting units, and deploy/scout to push the DE back and far as possible. It'd be an uphill battle, and I'd probably lose, but with four squads, each with 8 S8 shots, they ravagers won't be around too long once I get into range (which will only take a turn of scout + movement + run) Eventually the raiders run out of room to hide.

I'd be a hell of a game, and might come to mission and going first.

if the DE player takes night shields your 24" range becomes 18" and if they ever get to close tehy can just flat out.

But that doesnt matter.

Even if you combat squad they can still kill you too quick. 30 lance shots. 20 hit. 16 wound. you lose 11 paladins. Shrouding and Dragios storm shield can help you a little but not save you.

Seriously, if I come up against a guy who is running all paladins I would laugh.

edited. i thought swords gave a 4++ to shooting...

Dark lances can be a weaknes, but shurly Mr. Autocannon can help out in that department?

Also, if he deep strikes the paladins in he has bette chanches of killing the dreaded raiders.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:It's a good list..

..for stomping newbies at GW.

This is what the list is good for.
I'd consider some fire support like Rifleman Dreads w/ S-upgrade.

Redbeard wrote:I see the Darklances as a more realistic issue than the vindicators. I can count on one hand the number of vindicators and demolisher (combined) that I've played against in six years of tournament play.

That doesn't mean not to play paladins, but to be aware of what your weaknesses are. I don't think demolisher cannons are that weakness. I'm considering doing a mostly paladin force myself, just to have a very small army.

Yeah, I'll be honest I dont' see DE much, so I kind of forgot that they're out there. They'd really mess me up.

I guess my thought is that there isnt' an army out there that doesn't have foils. I mean, I can run three landraiders, and Tau eat my lunch. I run horde orks, and a badass combi-charge melts my army with combat res. AV 12 gets blown up by missile spam, which is in turn hurt bad by landraiders or termies.

Its just too many eggs in too few baskets.

Also, like others said, things like Demolishers, Vindicators, hell even Battlecannons will work you over (BC's just because if you miss that 2+ there goes a pally)

As others have already mentioned, its a combination of problems. Low Model count, poor invulnerable saves, Instant death, and short range.

The low model count couples with mere 5+ invulns to give them pretty poor survivability outside of CC. And to be honest, when you only have a few units, surviving shooting is what you need to be worried about, not CC.

The next two, ID and short range means that anti tank weaponry will rip you a new one, bypassing FNP and 2 wounds each.

Against 'some' armies it might do ok. Against my TAC armies it wouldn't, either triple Exorcist/many melta Sisters, or Broadside/Plasma/Fusion heavy Tau, neither would end well for Paladins.

Exergy wrote:
if the DE player takes night shields your 24" range becomes 18" and if they ever get to close tehy can just flat out.

If they flat out, they can't shoot. Also, if run a block across the table, they can't even flat out out of the range.

I had forgotten about night shields, but I didn't think they were common. Like I said, I've seen two DE armies at local events, but never played agains the new book.

But that doesnt matter.

Even if you combat squad they can still kill you too quick. 30 lance shots. 20 hit. 16 wound. you lose 8 paladins. Shrouding and Dragios storm shield can help you a little but not save you.

Fair enough. If I run into your list, I will lose.

Seriously, if I come up against a guy who is running all paladins I would laugh.

Ok, I will get laughed at and then tabled. Undersood. I'm guessing you win a lot of sportsmanship awards at the tournaments you go to.