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Wardragoon wrote:Well can't quite do it in 4e, but a aboleth plus a rowboat, it leads to a nice tpk.

Why couldnt you do it in 4e?

To correct that I should've said

I don't know if you can do it

Have a section where a PC needs to smear their own blood on a door to open it using a special blade. The blade however, deals Vile damage, and will not heal normally. Over the course of a week, the wound spreads, leeching hit points away from the PC every day.

Mordoskul wrote:Have a section where a PC needs to smear their own blood on a door to open it using a special blade. The blade however, deals Vile damage, and will not heal normally. Over the course of a week, the wound spreads, leeching hit points away from the PC every day.

ooh thats a good quest hook

I played 3.5 for years with a party that loved to meta-game to solve problems and generally tried to make the most unfair characters they could, so I would design monsters that would be just as unfair by combining templates/adding feats to make things more powerful without changing rules (we played some strict DnD). To get around meta-gaming, I used lots of illusions, like an ogre mage using polymorph to pretend to be a basilisk, thus my metagaming players tried to fight it without looking at it, and kept letting it fast heal because "basilisks can't fast heal." I also found that large group battles of weak monsters combined with a boss were the most entertaining, 15-30 zombies with a necromancer or a whole goblin/orc tribe (~10-50) led by a dragon or some such. The minions should be weak enough that they would be no contest on their own (4 or 5 CR lower than party) and the boss should be tough (2-5 CR higher than party, depending on player skill) Not sure if that translates to 4E though.

CODY! wrote:I played 3.5 for years with a party that loved to meta-game to solve problems and generally tried to make the most unfair characters they could, so I would design monsters that would be just as unfair by combining templates/adding feats to make things more powerful without changing rules (we played some strict DnD). To get around meta-gaming, I used lots of illusions, like an ogre mage using polymorph to pretend to be a basilisk, thus my metagaming players tried to fight it without looking at it, and kept letting it fast heal because "basilisks can't fast heal." I also found that large group battles of weak monsters combined with a boss were the most entertaining, 15-30 zombies with a necromancer or a whole goblin/orc tribe (~10-50) led by a dragon or some such. The minions should be weak enough that they would be no contest on their own (4 or 5 CR lower than party) and the boss should be tough (2-5 CR higher than party, depending on player skill) Not sure if that translates to 4E though.

I have been doing the many minions thing, however, the template swaps would be good. Especially, since I have just discovered noone in the group has dungeoneering or other abilities to ID many monsters.

They do have Religion and Arcana, one even has History, but these will only help with planar and undead...

I only kill PCs as a last resort.

Maiming is generally more instructive.

My favourite is the implanted micro explosive charge into the brain. Not enough to kill. Just enough to paralyse and keep them prisoner in their own body.

[I focus on modern or cyberpunk/posthuman games. Fantasy like D&D never grabbed me. Dying in Cyberpunk is easy. Living with the consequences is harder. Dying doesn't teach them anything.]

We have a film noir caper-like game we're doing right now. I actually own a detective agency in Sharn. We had a fight in a warehouse where we thought we were fighting just a couple guards. They turned out to be trolls magicked into looking like humans. After making a listen check, I realize there's something else in the room. After casting See Invis, I realize that, additionally, in the room, there was three invisible ogre mages and a medusa. Our wizard and his cohort were turned to stone, and the rest of us barely manage to wipe out everything except one of the Ogre Mages. He runs over and grabs the stoned wizard and teleports away with him.

The wizard has a couple takeaside sessions with the DM, and when we find him a game session later, we find out that he's been tortured to the point he's half dead, and permanently blinded by some (DM's) magic such that the only way to cure him is to actually kill him and then raise him.

This is also the game that, rather than try to interrogate people, I kill them and then cast Speak with Dead on them until they cooperate.

We play for keeps in that game.

Wow some of you play very brutal rgps! I hate when I party wipe, but I don't think I do it as brutally as you all do. My hat goes off to you.

I don't play 4th but in the 3 different editions of D&D I have played as a DM, I always enjoyed the challenges of how undead physiology (immune to death magic, poison, mind-controlling effects etc.) interacts with either magic or traps. The only time this is not "an interesting way to kill P.C.s" was in 3.5 if you have a cleric with a really high Charisma.

Once again I don't know 4th edition, but I like fights in waist high water with small sized skeletons, casting cloudkill in a party facing ghouls, and zombies fighting with diseased weapons. Your party should beat it if they are smart, but no one enjoys having their character diseased or poisoned.

You could always make a recurring villan, someone who has been effected in a nagative way by the actions of the characters. This villain could of course escape several times until he obtains the means to kill them, or their pursuit of this person causes something bad to happen elsewhere.

The stuff in Grimtooths book of Traps (I,II,III,IV) is just plain nasty. Use with caution. I think most of the stuff in there is meant as DM only humor rather than actual playable traps.

snurl wrote:The stuff in Grimtooths book of Traps (I,II,III,IV) is just plain nasty. Use with caution. I think most of the stuff in there is meant as DM only humor rather than actual playable traps.

I dunno the wooden coin trap is worth the lulz to pull on the party, though they are still paranoid about piles of 'gold'

Wardragoon wrote:

snurl wrote:The stuff in Grimtooths book of Traps (I,II,III,IV) is just plain nasty. Use with caution. I think most of the stuff in there is meant as DM only humor rather than actual playable traps.

I dunno the wooden coin trap is worth the lulz to pull on the party, though they are still paranoid about piles of 'gold'

Oh, they work allright. The one with the row of columns in the pit, leading to the door on the other side of the pit, is a good example of one that is just too deadly. Traps are supposed to be deadly but there is such a thing as overkill.

If playing Deathwatch, there's always the "Oh look, it's Khârn the Betrayer! Hi Khârn!" card to play if the PCs get away with too much... preferably done in a way that doesn't scream of evil GM at work.

I prefer, "hey look, an Everson Assassin" as he busts through the wall then screams "OH YEAH!" like he is the fething kool-aid guy and randomly kill one or more of the PC's.

If you're in pathfinder, a decent sized group of fighters at 1/2 the party level and loaded with teamwork feats might be interesting.

Probably tower shields too if fireballs are a concern.

btemple0 wrote:I prefer, "hey look, an Everson Assassin" as he busts through the wall then screams "OH YEAH!" like he is the fething kool-aid guy and randomly kill one or more of the PC's.

This made me pee a lil bit...

You wanna know something that can really easily screw up the PCs if they're not careful? Reinforcements. Have the most powerful enemy in the encounter show up around rounds 4 or 5, after most "nova" parties have blown their most powerful abilities.

themocaw wrote:You wanna know something that can really easily screw up the PCs if they're not careful? Reinforcements. Have the most powerful enemy in the encounter show up around rounds 4 or 5, after most "nova" parties have blown their most powerful abilities.

Yeh, except some of our members never use them "just in case"... they are a wily bunch

AvatarForm wrote:

themocaw wrote:You wanna know something that can really easily screw up the PCs if they're not careful? Reinforcements. Have the most powerful enemy in the encounter show up around rounds 4 or 5, after most "nova" parties have blown their most powerful abilities.

Yeh, except some of our members never use them "just in case"... they are a wily bunch

Then you're doing it right.

I also like the random lictor grabbing up someone while they go and paly with some xenos weapon, or genestealers, lots and lots of genestealers.

AvatarForm wrote:I get the feeling that my PCs are already planning on outsmarting me....

If your players ask for anything you feel is over the top or game breaking, just say no. Stops them right in their tracks if they know that the DM will not give them every little thing they want.

AvatarForm wrote:May I please gather your suggestions or experiences with this? I wish to make the adventure exciting, but if they constantly overcome every challenge, things will soon become bland.

Creativity is welcome.

Four words, Book of Vile Darkness.

I am unsure if 4th has it or not. If not convert the 3rd/3.5 one for it. If it does, still convert to older one, likely more torment for your players.
Just remember DM rule 1; NEVER let your players take ANYTHING from this book unless you want broken, CE or LE PCs.

During combat sessions do not let them talk to each other other than for their free action during a round of combat. Let hoards of intelligent creatures use tactics, verus just throwing themselves at the party at random. Include adverse weather effects, those are always fun.

Send Squirrels after them

Nightwalker wrote:Send Squirrels after them

I did better... I mauled them with a cave bear

A harsh winter, enough said.

Wardragoon wrote:A harsh winter, enough said.

This may require some more explanation.

Eg. Encounter size, conditions, stat modifiers...

AvatarForm wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:A harsh winter, enough said.

This may require some more explanation.

Eg. Encounter size, conditions, stat modifiers...

People have a tendency not to buy winter clothing in some groups or do not have utility spells like Endure Elements, so the players die to exposure, in combat situations the PC's also tire out quicker in addition to the extreme weather playing on the PC's ability to hit or do damage.

Requia wrote:Kobolds.

Note that you can kill a level 10 party off with kobolds almost as easily as a level 1. (At level ten, the players are more likely to run away screaming, which will save them if you aren't careful).

even 20th level characters are not safe. a group of 40 can take out 6 20ths in 2 rounds, with clever use of poison, traps and situational modifiers.

Asukane wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I get the feeling that my PCs are already planning on outsmarting me....

If your players ask for anything you feel is over the top or game breaking, just say no. Stops them right in their tracks if they know that the DM will not give them every little thing they want.

On the other hand, occasionally saying "Wow, that was clever, OK, you can skip from Point A to Point D since Pionts B and C weren't that interesting anyway" gives players a major feeling of satisfaction.

As to winter: It's one thing to say "Winter's hitting hard, you're poorly prepared." and have the snow, ice, etc. be a constant background element and source for fun. Ot's another thing, and in my opinion wrong, to say "Well, since you didn't guess you'd need a set of winter clothes, you're screwed. Ha Ha! Sucks to be you!" as it's one step away from assessing a -1 penalty to all actions because the player didn't specifically say that they were emptying their bladders, and furthermore having them attacked by Cesspool Weasels unless they spend fifteen minutes checking the privy each time.