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Balance wrote:

Asukane wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I get the feeling that my PCs are already planning on outsmarting me....

If your players ask for anything you feel is over the top or game breaking, just say no. Stops them right in their tracks if they know that the DM will not give them every little thing they want.

On the other hand, occasionally saying "Wow, that was clever, OK, you can skip from Point A to Point D since Pionts B and C weren't that interesting anyway" gives players a major feeling of satisfaction.

As to winter: It's one thing to say "Winter's hitting hard, you're poorly prepared." and have the snow, ice, etc. be a constant background element and source for fun. Ot's another thing, and in my opinion wrong, to say "Well, since you didn't guess you'd need a set of winter clothes, you're screwed. Ha Ha! Sucks to be you!" as it's one step away from assessing a -1 penalty to all actions because the player didn't specifically say that they were emptying their bladders, and furthermore having them attacked by Cesspool Weasels unless they spend fifteen minutes checking the privy each time.

You use the winter to fatigue the group and then fight them, I should have corrected myself earlier.

btemple0 wrote:I prefer, "hey look, an Everson Assassin" as he busts through the wall then screams "OH YEAH!" like he is the fething kool-aid guy and randomly kill one or more of the PC's.

There's always the "Look over there! You can't see it, but there's a Vindicare Assassin over there! You're fethed!" too. So many delightful possibilities. I liked the suggestion of a Lictor grabbing someone though.

I got over the assassin thing a while ago when Kanluen told me about the spire slayer, Rain of Desolation is fun.... well for me it is fun.

Balance wrote:

Asukane wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I get the feeling that my PCs are already planning on outsmarting me....

If your players ask for anything you feel is over the top or game breaking, just say no. Stops them right in their tracks if they know that the DM will not give them every little thing they want.

On the other hand, occasionally saying "Wow, that was clever, OK, you can skip from Point A to Point D since Pionts B and C weren't that interesting anyway" gives players a major feeling of satisfaction.

As to winter: It's one thing to say "Winter's hitting hard, you're poorly prepared." and have the snow, ice, etc. be a constant background element and source for fun. Ot's another thing, and in my opinion wrong, to say "Well, since you didn't guess you'd need a set of winter clothes, you're screwed. Ha Ha! Sucks to be you!" as it's one step away from assessing a -1 penalty to all actions because the player didn't specifically say that they were emptying their bladders, and furthermore having them attacked by Cesspool Weasels unless they spend fifteen minutes checking the privy each time.

You could always give small hints that a bad winter is coming, then all of a sudden, a few sessions later, it hits. If they didn't see the hints...well, you get the point.

One of the most challenging and exciting 4E encounters I've run I like to call Cave of the Infinitely Spawning Goblins. The party came into a cavern where they saw literally thousands of goblins milling about in goblin society. They tried to stealth through it, but the gobbos spotted them. I threw something like 20 goblin minions at them, which they took out with no trouble.

Then came the reinforcements.

After a few rounds, they realised that this tide wasn't going to stop. They fought their way out, across a narrow rock bridge, through swarms of goblins. Made for an excellent, and extremely challenging encounter. I, uh, may have killed two out of five characters, and nearly killed a third (natural 20 on a death ST!). So you might not want to go in as hard as I did, but it was a memorable and challenging encounter for a party who are pretty hard to challenge in most cases. They'd gotten used to fights they were supposed to win, so it was a nice to shake them up a bit.

Mwahahaha.

Zyllos wrote:

Balance wrote:

Asukane wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I get the feeling that my PCs are already planning on outsmarting me....

If your players ask for anything you feel is over the top or game breaking, just say no. Stops them right in their tracks if they know that the DM will not give them every little thing they want.

On the other hand, occasionally saying "Wow, that was clever, OK, you can skip from Point A to Point D since Pionts B and C weren't that interesting anyway" gives players a major feeling of satisfaction.

As to winter: It's one thing to say "Winter's hitting hard, you're poorly prepared." and have the snow, ice, etc. be a constant background element and source for fun. Ot's another thing, and in my opinion wrong, to say "Well, since you didn't guess you'd need a set of winter clothes, you're screwed. Ha Ha! Sucks to be you!" as it's one step away from assessing a -1 penalty to all actions because the player didn't specifically say that they were emptying their bladders, and furthermore having them attacked by Cesspool Weasels unless they spend fifteen minutes checking the privy each time.

You could always give small hints that a bad winter is coming, then all of a sudden, a few sessions later, it hits. If they didn't see the hints...well, you get the point.

Sure, that's better.

Although I realize it's ultimately one imaginary method of an imaginary character getting killed over another method, dying based off nothing more than an environmental effect would be discouraging.

OTOH, using the snowstorms and hard winter as a jumping-off point for Cool Stuff is completely cool. The GM gets to use all those stat blocks in the Monster Manual for Wargs, Yetis, Ice Giants, etc. All of them attacking at once with Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song" as the soundtrack, even...

it's just that, emotionally, "my character got killed by an ice giant" is much more satisfying than "my character got killed by a blizzard" for some reason.

The best encounter I ever threw at a party was bees. Not magic bees, not giant bees, just a beehive. They were walking along, they saw a beehive, the dwarf barbarian nearly got stung.

He then charged the nest.

The rest of the party turned and fled.

It was glorious.

themocaw wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

themocaw wrote:You wanna know something that can really easily screw up the PCs if they're not careful? Reinforcements. Have the most powerful enemy in the encounter show up around rounds 4 or 5, after most "nova" parties have blown their most powerful abilities.

Yeh, except some of our members never use them "just in case"... they are a wily bunch

Then you're doing it right.

One of the only two encounters that was really challenging to us was because of this. In one of the published Wizards 4E modules, there is a room with a ton of fey and 3-4 rounds later a LOT of trolls show up. The idea is that the fey are supposed to fight the trolls and the PCs pick off the stragglers.

Yeaaaah... We blew up the Fey in like 1.5 rounds and cut their group into a third. So when the trolls came in, they rolled over the remainder and straight into us. We ended up falling back and having a pretty tense almost TPK until we found a clever way to bottleneck the trolls. Didn't help that all the trolls had special abilities that interlocked like a finely constructed puzzle.

So Nova is okay for most things. Our rule is generally to save Dailies for the most appropriate time though. We tend to go 2-4 milestones before rest though.

Balance wrote:

You could always give small hints that a bad winter is coming, then all of a sudden, a few sessions later, it hits. If they didn't see the hints...well, you get the point.

Sure, that's better.

Although I realize it's ultimately one imaginary method of an imaginary character getting killed over another method, dying based off nothing more than an environmental effect would be discouraging.

OTOH, using the snowstorms and hard winter as a jumping-off point for Cool Stuff is completely cool. The GM gets to use all those stat blocks in the Monster Manual for Wargs, Yetis, Ice Giants, etc. All of them attacking at once with Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song" as the soundtrack, even...

it's just that, emotionally, "my character got killed by an ice giant" is much more satisfying than "my character got killed by a blizzard" for some reason.

Actually it makes for an interesting adventure premise when you have to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, so for instance its noon and you found an awesome defensible shelter, do you cut the day short and stay here or do you continue on for a few more hours and test your luck, also blizzards are great for ambushes and horror settings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main reason I use winter is to be an evil GM and force the group to think about things other than the fight.

Wardragoon wrote:

Balance wrote:

You could always give small hints that a bad winter is coming, then all of a sudden, a few sessions later, it hits. If they didn't see the hints...well, you get the point.

Sure, that's better.

Although I realize it's ultimately one imaginary method of an imaginary character getting killed over another method, dying based off nothing more than an environmental effect would be discouraging.

OTOH, using the snowstorms and hard winter as a jumping-off point for Cool Stuff is completely cool. The GM gets to use all those stat blocks in the Monster Manual for Wargs, Yetis, Ice Giants, etc. All of them attacking at once with Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song" as the soundtrack, even...

it's just that, emotionally, "my character got killed by an ice giant" is much more satisfying than "my character got killed by a blizzard" for some reason.

Actually it makes for an interesting adventure premise when you have to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, so for instance its noon and you found an awesome defensible shelter, do you cut the day short and stay here or do you continue on for a few more hours and test your luck, also blizzards are great for ambushes and horror settings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main reason I use winter is to be an evil GM and force the group to think about things other than the fight.

Which is the reason I loved playing in the silver marches in 3.5 FR setting.

I do like (for 4th) throwing in mid-battle events and reinforcements. Some gamers seem to plan around 'alpha strikes' (I.E. open up with a big power and action point another one) but this means you have to think about it a bit.

Balance wrote:I do like (for 4th) throwing in mid-battle events and reinforcements. Some gamers seem to plan around 'alpha strikes' (I.E. open up with a big power and action point another one) but this means you have to think about it a bit.

You see I do not think that way, I think about ways to creatively utilize a utility spell, like using animate rope to rip concealed ballistas out of their towers.

Not read all the thread so sorry if this doesn't follow on but I remembered some cool ideas from the 1980 'best of White Dwarf' (one of my most treasured gaming possesions).

Back in those days WD covered everything including DnD and gave this brilliant trap:

A room is 10 foot wide and 30 foot long, with a door in the middle of each short edge (through one of which the PCs enter). A pit 10 foot deep and 10 foot across covers the full width of the room. In the centre of the pit floor is an iron ring with a rope that runs straight up and through a hole in the ceiling.

The pit is actually filled with a gelatinous cube that has had permanent invisibility cast on it so any attempt to climb into the pit or failed attempt to jump it leads to people being digested. The rope has been treated with a chemical that prevents the cube from digesting it, but that is also highly flammable. The best way of dealing with the cube is to burn it but this will burn the rope which is holding the ceiling up through a clever system of pulleys!
As if this isn't enough the space above the false ceiling is filled with yellow mold that will attack the party after the ceiling comes down

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Not read all the thread so sorry if this doesn't follow on but I remembered some cool ideas from the 1980 'best of White Dwarf' (one of my most treasured gaming possesions).

Back in those days WD covered everything including DnD and gave this brilliant trap:

A room is 10 foot wide and 30 foot long, with a door in the middle of each short edge (through one of which the PCs enter). A pit 10 foot deep and 10 foot across covers the full width of the room. In the centre of the pit floor is an iron ring with a rope that runs straight up and through a hole in the ceiling.

The pit is actually filled with a gelatinous cube that has had permanent invisibility cast on it so any attempt to climb into the pit or failed attempt to jump it leads to people being digested. The rope has been treated with a chemical that prevents the cube from digesting it, but that is also highly flammable. The best way of dealing with the cube is to burn it but this will burn the rope which is holding the ceiling up through a clever system of pulleys!
As if this isn't enough the space above the false ceiling is filled with yellow mold that will attack the party after the ceiling comes down

Yeh, probably best to read the OP.

Im not looking for TPK

Okay, here is the best trap ever, okay? For 3.5 edition and earlier. It won't kill any party members, but it will inconvenience them in a hilarious manner.

Take a door. An ordinary, well-built, unlocked door.

Spread Sovereign Glue on the underside of the door handle.

The first guy to grab the handle and open the door gets glued to the door, and the only way to unglue themselves is to use Universal Solvent.

Now ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw a party bring Universal Solvent into a dungeon?

This is especially hilarious if the guy is wearing magic gloves.

While we talk about inconvienient traps I might as well mention the "Damned Black Bag"

It is a cursed magical bag that upon opening spawns six cactus-like plant creatures, with five health, and shoots spikes, which increase in damage dice, at the person so unlucky as to obtain the item.

Each time the bag is opened, more six more creatures spawn, all of them one size category larger and doing one die higher in damage, but the kicker, they cannot stop opening the bag, no matter what they do. Situations like someone saying they are never going to open the bag again causes them to open the bag, if a PC dies, then after the end of the encounter with the last six, they regain full Hit Points, unawares as to what happened and opens the bag again, restarting the cycle.

The only way to get rid of the bag is to give it to someone willing to take the bag, they have three attempts to find the NPC willing to take the obviously cursed bag, otherwise they are stuck with the endless combat for the rest of their lifespan.

btemple0 wrote:While we talk about inconvienient traps I might as well mention the "Damned Black Bag"

It is a cursed magical bag that upon opening spawns six cactus-like plant creatures, with five health, and shoots spikes, which increase in damage dice, at the person so unlucky as to obtain the item.

Sounds like Final Fantasy cactuars. Low life, high evasion.

- Piousman

btemple0 wrote:While we talk about inconvienient traps I might as well mention the "Damned Black Bag"

It is a cursed magical bag that upon opening spawns six cactus-like plant creatures, with five health, and shoots spikes, which increase in damage dice, at the person so unlucky as to obtain the item.

Each time the bag is opened, more six more creatures spawn, all of them one size category larger and doing one die higher in damage, but the kicker, they cannot stop opening the bag, no matter what they do. Situations like someone saying they are never going to open the bag again causes them to open the bag, if a PC dies, then after the end of the encounter with the last six, they regain full Hit Points, unawares as to what happened and opens the bag again, restarting the cycle.

The only way to get rid of the bag is to give it to someone willing to take the bag, they have three attempts to find the NPC willing to take the obviously cursed bag, otherwise they are stuck with the endless combat for the rest of their lifespan.

That isnt a challenge, that is just ridiculous.

So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

AvatarForm wrote:So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

the rest of the group will be bored as a person solves a puzzle

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

the rest of the group will be bored as a person solves a puzzle

Will they?

As they will each be solving their own or, if completed, they can be spectator to their party-member's trial.

It all depends how you spend the time and our group is quite close knit.

AvatarForm wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

the rest of the group will be bored as a person solves a puzzle

Will they?

As they will each be solving their own or, if completed, they can be spectator to their party-member's trial.

It all depends how you spend the time and our group is quite close knit.

The thing I have noticed in my 5-6 years of GMing players even close knit ones get bored when just spectating(lets face it, watching someone figure a riddle/puzzle out is quite boring)

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

the rest of the group will be bored as a person solves a puzzle

Will they?

As they will each be solving their own or, if completed, they can be spectator to their party-member's trial.

It all depends how you spend the time and our group is quite close knit.

The thing I have noticed in my 5-6 years of GMing players even close knit ones get bored when just spectating(lets face it, watching someone figure a riddle/puzzle out is quite boring)

This only applies to the people you play with.

AvatarForm wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

the rest of the group will be bored as a person solves a puzzle

Will they?

As they will each be solving their own or, if completed, they can be spectator to their party-member's trial.

It all depends how you spend the time and our group is quite close knit.

The thing I have noticed in my 5-6 years of GMing players even close knit ones get bored when just spectating(lets face it, watching someone figure a riddle/puzzle out is quite boring)

This only applies to the people you play with.

Well I have seen it occur several times both as GM and playing in other groups, and you asked what we thought, and I think youll have players that will get bored

What's a GM?

My title is Dungeon Master

AvatarForm wrote:What's a GM?

My title is Dungeon Master

Game master, Dungeon Master same thing

I like the idea Avatar. Very Crystal maze. If you can manage all four rooms simultaneously that might stop Wardragons problem from happening.

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:So, I have designed a delve but I am uncertain if I can make it work with the mechanics involved in 4th.

A spiral stair leads to a central room. To continue the party must complete a series of tasks/gauntlets in the corridors which lead off the central room.

I was thinking of designing the situation that only a specific party member could enter each alone. Relying on their own build and problem solving skills to succeed and return with the necessary item or flick a switch/lever at the end of their own gauntlet. Obviously, this will break the party dynamic which the PCs have been emplying all along and they will be required to up the ante when operating alone.

What do you guys think?

the rest of the group will be bored as a person solves a puzzle

Will they?

As they will each be solving their own or, if completed, they can be spectator to their party-member's trial.

It all depends how you spend the time and our group is quite close knit.

The thing I have noticed in my 5-6 years of GMing players even close knit ones get bored when just spectating(lets face it, watching someone figure a riddle/puzzle out is quite boring)

Yeah, agreed as a player I can say that spectating is easily one of the most boring things to experience in D&D.

Dastardly Dave wrote:I like the idea Avatar. Very Crystal maze. If you can manage all four rooms simultaneously that might stop Wardragons problem from happening.

That was the plan.

We use skype, we also use live maps.

Its very doable for me to be managing 4-5 simultaneously... its called multi-skilling and looks awesome on a resume, especially if you are a male

AvatarForm wrote:

Dastardly Dave wrote:I like the idea Avatar. Very Crystal maze. If you can manage all four rooms simultaneously that might stop Wardragons problem from happening.

That was the plan.

We use skype, we also use live maps.

Its very doable for me to be managing 4-5 simultaneously... its called multi-skilling and looks awesome on a resume, especially if you are a male

Ohhh, well if its skype its a different story, if one person manages to finish early, he can just watch tv and hypothetically not offend anyone.