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Hi Dakkanauts,

My DnD epic Epic of epicness is about to begin and already I get the feeling that my PCs are already planning on outsmarting me...

May I please gather your suggestions or experiences with this? I wish to make the adventure exciting, but if they constantly overcome every challenge, things will soon become bland.

Creativity is welcome.

I generally try to have more than 1 villain to oppose the heroes, overall here I mean, as I find that it's often hard to predict exactly which villain the pcs will develop a grudge against. Plus as/when/if things go "wrong" then you've got backup.

Plus this honours the time old tradition of the pcs getting to fight the villains in order as they get tougher as well.

Generally I find allied NPCs are a great motivator. I don't just mean the guy who pays them gold to kill wolves/boars/goblins etc etc, but pcs get quite attached to the elderly innkeeper who hid them from the law, the street vendor who gives them a discount on their food as one of them reminds them of her long lost son.

Of course he turns up later as one of the big bads.


I generally find mind affecting spells/creatures and the like to be useful. Hypnotism, that sort of thing.

What sort of campaign and setting are you running ?

reds8n wrote: I generally try to have more than 1 villain to oppose the heroes, overall here I mean, as I find that it's often hard to predict exactly which villain the pcs will develop a grudge against. Plus as/when/if things go "wrong" then you've got backup.

Plus this honours the time old tradition of the pcs getting to fight the villains in order as they get tougher as well.

Generally I find allied NPCs are a great motivator. I don't just mean the guy who pays them gold to kill wolves/boars/goblins etc etc, but pcs get quite attached to the elderly innkeeper who hid them from the law, the street vendor who gives them a discount on their food as one of them reminds them of her long lost son.

Of course he turns up later as one of the big bads.


I generally find mind affecting spells/creatures and the like to be useful. Hypnotism, that sort of thing.

What sort of campaign and setting are you running ?

Thanks for the advice.

I dont want this coming off as a DM vs Players... but at the same time, some players find it entertaining to meta-game in order to out-think the DM.

It is 4.0 DnD.

PCs are Heroes of Old who have been released from stasis for avert the End of the World... but they dont know this yet.

The setting is similar to the Darktower epic by Stephen King (Gunslinger novels)... forgotten realms, but more dystopian/wasteland.

I guess I have the loose plot, Im just needing ideas to help me along with encounter generation and hooks.

I dont want this coming off as a DM vs Player

You're not, fret not.

Meta gaming is always a bit odd, and some times can be quite useful.

If they're heroes of old I would suggest getting them write/detail some of the people/places/organisations they knew "back in the day", which you can then play around with in the current day/age. So some might have fallen into disgrace or no longer be quite what they were ( ie the once glorious but now forgotten or mocked knightly order, the Thieves guild that used to look out for the little guy and only rob the rich is now little more than a protection racket and thugs. A small chapel that is now a major site of pilgrimage and all that entails. The young Treeman that is now an ancient and powerful force, asleep on the village green, etc etc etc.).

reds8n wrote:

I dont want this coming off as a DM vs Player

You're not, fret not.

Meta gaming is always a bit odd, and some times can be quite useful.

If they're heroes of old I would suggest getting them write/detail some of the people/places/organisations they knew "back in the day", which you can then play around with in the current day/age. So some might have fallen into disgrace or no longer be quite what they were ( ie the once glorious but now forgotten or mocked knightly order, the Thieves guild that used to look out for the little guy and only rob the rich is now little more than a protection racket and thugs. A small chapel that is now a major site of pilgrimage and all that entails. The young Treeman that is now an ancient and powerful force, asleep on the village green, etc etc etc.).

Wow... some very solid advice.

Thanks mate

In my experience the more the players feel that it's their world, and not merely a setting for you to throw monsters and traps at them in, the more they'll actually be involved and enjoy the experience.

I ran a similar scenario once.... a long time ago ... crap, where do the years go ...... and aside from some of the above I also featured the family descendants of one of the PCs, the family had fallen upon hard times and yet one or two of them showed "potential" and with a bit of guidance and help might make something of themselves again.

Another one, as they'd disappeared, had left behind a wife ( they were both elves) who had since remarried, to a rival of his and was, ultimately, happier with him than with the PC.

I'd also recommend perhaps some old foes -- things like vampires, dragons and the like , being long lived/immortal, make great foes here.

Maybe a wizard they defeated in the past became a liche or a ghost/similar.

In fact perhaps the misfortunes that have beset what the pcs left behind are all/mainly due to the actions of such a foe. Revenge is a dish best served cold after all.

You can always throw them into a maze made of invisible walls of force with a horribly toxic gas slowly rolling in behind them. Don't do that actually, you might have less friends at the end of the night. Something I have been kicking around in my head for a while is the idea of having the PCs get on the wrong side of a good character. Example, they go complete a quest for a kindly old man who uses the thing they got for him to increase his power to untold levels and rips open a portal to the abyss or destroys a town or something crazy. While they are being unwitting fools have the church of pelor or something send a bunch of assassins at them or paladins or something. Then, if they kill them the church hates them or they could beat these guys up but they will just keep comming back. I like to challenge my players by taking things and twisting them very slowly then I can hit them with a good twist and throw them off.

The Foot wrote:You can always throw them into a maze made of invisible walls of force with a horribly toxic gas slowly rolling in behind them. Don't do that actually, you might have less friends at the end of the night. Something I have been kicking around in my head for a while is the idea of having the PCs get on the wrong side of a good character. Example, they go complete a quest for a kindly old man who uses the thing they got for him to increase his power to untold levels and rips open a portal to the abyss or destroys a town or something crazy. While they are being unwitting fools have the church of pelor or something send a bunch of assassins at them or paladins or something. Then, if they kill them the church hates them or they could beat these guys up but they will just keep comming back. I like to challenge my players by taking things and twisting them very slowly then I can hit them with a good twist and throw them off.

I will save these suggestions for once I am more familiar with the personalities.

As we are all strangers, I do not wish to push players away from the group.

I have learned something playing Dragon Age: RPG -

Sometimes the GM can make the players choose between options that both have consequences (the lesser of two evils, so to speak). These challenge the players to play within their roles, picking the option that may be the more difficult path but the one more in-character.

For example, in a Dragon Age game, there is the ever-present friction between the Circle of Mages, and the Chantry (kind of like the catholic church in a sense) who delegate Templars to oversee the mages. If a mage does not submit to the Templar's rule, he is declared apostate and hunted down. However, the reason the mages are so closely guarded is because many of them can fall to the temptation of Demons, and become either possessed by them or the wielders of terrible dark magics taught by the demons.

So on the one hand, your characters could support the Mages in their battle for independence from the strict rule of the Templars. On the other, you could support the templars in containing the danger these mages represent. Do you condemn all for the actions of the few in order to keep innocent people safe, or do you risk the safety of the common man for the sake of freedom? In fact, that is mostly the premise of DA 2 if I recall correctly.

Forcing your players to make these "damned if you do, damned if you don't" choices create opportunities to challenge your players MORALITY and roleplaying abilities, not just their combat prowess. This makes for memorable games that your players will talk about, and also creates opportunities to actively create the gaming world together as a group.

Just my 2 cents, don't know if it helps you or not...

As reds8n pointed out, one of the most important things is to make your players invested in the world. How you go about this is entirely up to you. Examples of mine are as followed:

Players dealt with an unsavory sot that was putting kids to use as street pickpockets. When the Sot was eventually killed, one of the Players took over and instead, put the kids to work in a sort of Halfway house. When the players had to abandon the city, the characters were emotionally attached to it for that reason.

Also, random NPCs getting killed off that your player's have become attached to. Not just turning them against the party as Red suggested, but you could also make them sort of allies. Then, having them killed further motivates them against your adversary.

Feel free to steal from Movies &/or TV Shows! If you see something neat, do not be afraid to use it!

Another key is to be prepared to roll with your Players. Having a setting mapped out for them, and planned is all well and good, but you do not want to make them feel like they do not have a choice in the matter. (of course, you have to be careful. Do not let your party run roughshod over what you need them to do.) Youll have to think quick on your feet to accomplish both, but guiding a party along your story that they feel is theirs is the perfect result.


A odd thing I did a couple of times was with a Meal! If the party is meeting someone, or having a meeting of their own. Have an actual meal incorporated. My example is this,

My party had a particularly important meeting with a NPC but I had it take place over a meal! The NPC arranged for a feast for them and I also had our IRL Lunch planned with it. Deli Meats, Rolls/Breads, cheeses, fruit and Juice (wine) was served to the players so they ate while we "had the meeting" it was fun, got the lunch out of the way.

Obviously not what you should do all the time, but once and a while, or even once might just make it a cool moment.

Just food for thought. haha

@ avatarform: I love the general idea of your campaign, "heroes of old".

Things that work for my group are:

every location/NPC has 3-5 secrets about it(my players know it and love discovering wierd/helpful tidbits).

I make clear the major goals to the party, but let the PCs determine the order they see to fulfill the goals

I use frustration as a tool, writer's do it all the time, let the PCs win the encounter (battle) but not solve the goal . . . yet

Make the world truly epic, use weird geography and settings: a petrified frost giant in town square, reverse waterfalls, trees that literally sing at dawn, miracle children etc.

Oh and as far as the players outsmarting the DM (with metagame), one of the traits on the DM stat line is " DMs always have an INT 2xhigher than the party and can change the adventure at any time". That trait alone has saved many campaigns of mine.

Cheers.

Comintern wrote:
A odd thing I did a couple of times was with a Meal! If the party is meeting someone, or having a meeting of their own. Have an actual meal incorporated. My example is this,

My party had a particularly important meeting with a NPC but I had it take place over a meal! The NPC arranged for a feast for them and I also had our IRL Lunch planned with it. Deli Meats, Rolls/Breads, cheeses, fruit and Juice (wine) was served to the players so they ate while we "had the meeting" it was fun, got the lunch out of the way.

Obviously not what you should do all the time, but once and a while, or even once might just make it a cool moment.

Just food for thought. haha

Thanks for the suggestions.

Although, I am running this group over skype as I gathered players on Dakka and other forums who coul not otherwise attend DnD sessions... hence, we will probably never be in the same room to enjoy a meal.

When I played WFRP my DM/GM had a unique method to get players to get serious and play their roles or on occasion just to keep us on our toes. He called it a fate point trap a trap that would most likely kill at least one character forcing the use of a fate point not sure how you could carry this over to DnD as it doesn't use fate points but I'm sure you could come up with something.

It is always entertaining to have "gauntlets" for players to run. One of our PC's was an athlete and never really got to use all his skills so we had him run an indiana jones style trap maze. Pretty much every action he performed had skill checks; some had really bad penalties, some were just "You leap over the water pit but the edge crumbles beneath your foot and you fall into the dark depths... luckily the water is only a foot deep. Feeling rather foolish you wade to the other side".

These challanges were usually tied into some time important event or battle that occupied the rest of the group, the gauntlet above was against the clock as the entrance of the temple was being held open by the strong character, and the rest of the group were fighting off zombies (the athlete was running the maze to try and find the totem that was reanimating them and smash it).

The fun part then came when he got to the end, smashed the totem then triggered the big rolling boulder which chased him all the way out of the temple

These chalanges help to test the skills of each of your PC's while injecting some fun and sense of danger.

Though all the advice of reds8n is fantastic.

Just dare them to stand on the spot marked "X". See what happens.


The good old "Deck of many things" from the 1st AD&D DMG is always interesting too.

The Easiest way i found was to provide the party with a Prophecy In-Game, something vauge, cryptic, and completely made out to be like its the most important thing Plot-Wise. PLayers will then do everything in their power to try to stop it, or make it happen while taking everything you throw at them as part of said prophecy. With a well-tailored story/adventure you can easily use this element to steer them in a direction (or dungeon) you want them to go. Which brings me to the following:


Traps

I LOVE traps, i have a obession with them in my campaigns, everyone knows not to goof off in any of my dungeons. Though it can be a challenge to find a delicate ballance between trap overload (AKA Tomb of Horrors) and moderation. The former of which bogs down the session with the party inspecting every little thing in hopes of not dying.
Some of the following i've taken from Grimtooth's Trap books, others i've come up with on my own. They all do well at eleminating players, weakening them, challenging them, and/or murdering the entire party
Magicical auras is probably the easiest way to get a party in a dangerous situation, as most spell casters get more curious about something you make them take an Arcana Check to discover.
Take for instance your basic pit trap, throw an easily dectable illusion over it to make it look like a floor, and an even tell the party that it would be fairly simple to dispell. . . . dont tell them that inside is a Medusa (or another death-by-stare creature), whose gaze is blocked by said illusion.
Or my personal favorite, put a powerful magical staff in a room, wedged between the floor and the ceiling. Nothing else, after accounting for the 10 ton slab of granite the staff is holding up, the staff is free to take.
Need to get rid of a party members equipment that seems to turn all of your monsters into mush just a tad too quick? Nothing a few Rust-Monsters in a pit cant fix.
Though a real heart-breaker has to be a passage obstructed with a wall of shimmering material. Not Magical, very shiney, no heat or poison or any of that nonsense. Woe be to the adventurer that attempts to walk through a wall of Diamond Dust.


Now in a completely different direction, the NPCs in your campaign are an excellent point of order.

After a bit of time, i find my players often going to the local gaurd for some kill-quest for XP and gold. I DO tell them that the Captain of the gaurd always as more work for the party, i DO NOT tell them that the captain of the Gaurd is a Vampire Lord who has his site set on control of the town, and all the would-be slaves in it. I find it a bit more rewarding to the praty to have to kill an enemy/monster that they had a major hand in creating, regardless of its importance in my story.
The Monster Manual has a plethora of ancient and powerful horrors that can masqurade as mortals, and with a bit of ingenuity you can have a party unknowlingly dancing to an NPCs tune. I had a 'good' aligned party working for a vampire, and didnt question their quest-givers motives until a quest to destroy an orphanage came up (he tried bluffing that the orphanage was raising child-heritics, he rolled a 1 )

Combat, a rather important bit.

Not sure how far along you have your campaign going, but im sure you have already figured out who is the most effective Controller, Leader, Striker, Defender in your party (croud control, heals, dps, tank for the non 4th edition players). Each of the classes that fit that roll have excellnt saves in one or two categories, but are lacking in the others. I mean, you could have a Tank with an armor of awesomness +3, but still not be able to hold a reflex save against stuns and knockdowns, or have a healer that is excellent at blocking Mind-Flayer's attacks, but that Rouge next to him may not fair as well.

The party's Cohesion also comes into play, while a group is a formitable thing for your monsters to take out, through some knockdowns, pushes, throws, and teleports, and suddenly you have 5 seperate people fending for themselves against less than ideal opponents. Do they Run and try to regroup? Do they stand and fight? Do they have a choice?

No one's brought up this, or this or even this?

the first one is epic

H.B.M.C. wrote:No one's brought up this, or this or even this?

As a subscriber to Penny Arcade I have seen the first 2, but the third is enlightening.

Thanks.

PS. Down with Games Workshop!

Thread needs love...

AvatarForm wrote:Thread needs love...

I think the whole Large Scale, Roleplaying & Board Games (SPACE HULK) forum needs love, unfortunately.

Cheesecat wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Thread needs love...

I think the whole Large Scale, Roleplaying & Board Games (SPACE HULK) forum needs love, unfortunately.

Very true...not many play roleplaying games anymore. I myself haven't played in quite a while, but that is only due to the fact that I can't find anyone to play with without traveling long distances. Basically, the only "gaming" in my town is card games which do not interest me in the slightest. Oh well, at least I can read on dakka about others having fun.

Gridge wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Thread needs love...

I think the whole Large Scale, Roleplaying & Board Games (SPACE HULK) forum needs love, unfortunately.

Very true...not many play roleplaying games anymore. I myself haven't played in quite a while, but that is only due to the fact that I can't find anyone to play with without traveling long distances. Basically, the only "gaming" in my town is card games which do not interest me in the slightest. Oh well, at least I can read on dakka about others having fun.

Well as a note if there is a card store around there you may want to ask about RPGs, usually the two types of games go hand in hand

Gridge wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Thread needs love...

I think the whole Large Scale, Roleplaying & Board Games (SPACE HULK) forum needs love, unfortunately.

Very true...not many play roleplaying games anymore. I myself haven't played in quite a while, but that is only due to the fact that I can't find anyone to play with without traveling long distances. Basically, the only "gaming" in my town is card games which do not interest me in the slightest. Oh well, at least I can read on dakka about others having fun.

You should check RPG.net or enworld.org they have a much bigger RPG community than DakkaDakka.

Kobolds.

Note that you can kill a level 10 party off with kobolds almost as easily as a level 1. (At level ten, the players are more likely to run away screaming, which will save them if you aren't careful).

Requia wrote:Kobolds.

Note that you can kill a level 10 party off with kobolds almost as easily as a level 1. (At level ten, the players are more likely to run away screaming, which will save them if you aren't careful).

Yeh, I realised this when I theorycrafted some scenarios with Kobolds... in fact, anything other than a very small skirmish and Kobolds seem broken.

Though I do enjoy their description in Races of the Dragon...

Something i have done is create party tension, while this is kinda a **** thing to do as GM it adds some fun as you play off the different members views and attitudes, like sending the kill em all guy and the guy who likes stealth on a mission to sneak into a place and steal something then having the man their stealing from walk in. Boom instant tension as the kill em all lusts for blood and the sneaky fellow hopes they havent been seen. Or something you can plan ahead of time is a double agent with one of the gamers....

Ralin Givens wrote:Something i have done is create party tension, while this is kinda a **** thing to do as GM it adds some fun as you play off the different members views and attitudes, like sending the kill em all guy and the guy who likes stealth on a mission to sneak into a place and steal something then having the man their stealing from walk in. Boom instant tension as the kill em all lusts for blood and the sneaky fellow hopes they havent been seen. Or something you can plan ahead of time is a double agent with one of the gamers....

This could work... I have a bloodthirsty, intimidation-aholic paladin... and a drow who stealths right up into the firelight and wonders why he ends up full of crossbow bolts.

A massive horde of mutated roaches. We encountered a horde today when we played our monthly Rogue Trader session and feth me, three of us nearly died there.

Well can't quite do it in 4e, but a aboleth plus a rowboat, it leads to a nice tpk.