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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I suppose one the best ways is to take a look at the various models, paint schemes, histories and the proposed fighting styles then make a choice. If you pop onto the GW website then search on the internet for each army, that may help. Of course I would say Space Wolves because of three things; 1. I am totally biased being that SW are my main army, 2. The models are ornate and I love them and 3. They pack a massive punch in hand to hand combat but also have a serious amount of fire power with the long fangs!

The choice is yours!........

So many armies
Here are reasons I dont want to paly the armies below
IG-I dont won't to paint 50 biggilion guards and buy that many
Tyranids-Same as IG
Eldar-I just dont(but they are pretty cool and i do have a small army, 1 squad of 20 guardians and a farseer, and a book)
Orks- Sold all of them, dont feel like buying them back, same as IG and Nids, got blasted apart by tau in learning game, turned me off on Orks
Chaos Marines, and Daemons-Sold them dont feel like playing them
Grey Knights not enough models in army
Here is why I want to play the armies below
Dark Eldar- THEY LOOK SO ing EPIC!!!!
Necrons- I have always liked them
Tau- Epic shooting

SngrFghtr wrote:So many armies
Here are reasons I dont want to paly the armies below
IG-I dont won't to paint 50 biggilion guards and buy that many
Tyranids-Same as IG
Eldar-I just dont(but they are pretty cool and i do have a small army, 1 squad of 20 guardians and a farseer, and a book)
Orks- Sold all of them, dont feel like buying them back, same as IG and Nids, got blasted apart by tau in learning game, turned me off on Orks
Chaos Marines, and Daemons-Sold them dont feel like playing them
Grey Knights not enough models in army
Here is why I want to play the armies below
Dark Eldar- THEY LOOK SO ing EPIC!!!!
Necrons- I have always liked them
Tau- Epic shooting

-Dark Eldar DO look epic, but with the fine-casting initiative, GW will all probably look better when they get their dex update.
-Necrons are epic because they die, then un-die, but it's not worth starting with an imminent update, because there is the risk of them being ruined.
-Tau have Godlike Firepower that won't ever let any enemies get anywhere near them so the Melee point is moot. Also, the XV8s (and XV9s) give you an enormous amount of room for strategizing, as well as the kroot teaching you how to use terrain cover to it's maximum.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I meant it in the sense of "the only thing I'd agree with choosing aside from Dark Eldar is Guard".

im2randomghgh wrote:-Dark Eldar DO look epic, but with the fine-casting initiative, GW will all probably look better when they get their dex update.

True, they're indicative of an unprecedented, drastic increase in quality, that will probably be present in all future models as well (not because of fine-cast though; "oh, models as detailed as plastics, that cost even more than metal!" ), there are currently no other lines that look as good, and at the very soonest the next line that might will be in the winter (Space Marines look like Space Marines, with no room to actually be made decent looking, and Necrons don't have the same potential, since they're skeleton robots...).

-Necrons are epic because they die, then un-die, but it's not worth starting with an imminent update, because there is the risk of them being ruined.

Right now they're the weakest codex, so they're unlikely to be made worse when they're updated this summer/fall, and will probably be quite good. WWB is being changed to FnP, possibly an improved version of it, but there'll no doubt be improvements to make up for it.

-Tau have Godlike Firepower that won't ever let any enemies get anywhere near them so the Melee point is moot. Also, the XV8s (and XV9s) give you an enormous amount of room for strategizing, as well as the kroot teaching you how to use terrain cover to it's maximum.

Tau only have their shooting going for them, and they don't do that as good as either Guard or DE, while having few good setups, unlike Guard and DE, and being unable to dominate the other two stages, unlike DE and to a lesser extent Guard.

Tau are pretty difficult to play. I wouldn't recommend them as a first army.
Like it's been said, necrons should be getting new models and a codex soon, so it's not really worth going for them now at the moment.
That just leaves you with dark eldar. Go with them or wait a while and see what comes up. Or better yet, just go with eldar =D

I think i will buy the space marines book(i already have a huge space marines army) and the Dark Eldar Codex, Archon, and a box or 2 of kalabite warriors

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Tau are pretty difficult to play. I wouldn't recommend them as a first army.
Like it's been said, necrons should be getting new models and a codex soon, so it's not really worth going for them now at the moment.
That just leaves you with dark eldar. Go with them or wait a while and see what comes up. Or better yet, just go with eldar =D

Difficulty is WHY you start.

If you start with a hard army, you will get an understanding of tactics (unlike playing any imperial/chaos/horde race) and then if you do decide to play an easy army, you'll be well off for both.

@SirP, Tau outshoot DE. Everytiime. DE are MUCH better in assault, but their shooty is inferior to that of guard and Tau.

DE=Mobile
IG=Firepower
Tau=perfect balance.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I must have different manticores, against SM/SW = fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP= Welcome to the game BTW. I'm surprised your not getting alot of "take your money and run" responses from the vocal anti GW crew.

Byte wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I must have different manticores, against SM/SW = fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP= Welcome to the game BTW. I'm surprised your not getting alot of "take your money and run" responses from the vocal anti GW crew.

It is too late. Can't you just feel his neckbeard forming?

Also, a trio of manticore can destroy a horde army in a turn if you're lucky. 3 Manticores x 4 missiles x up to 3 warheads=36 LBT in a turn.

im2randomghgh wrote:@SirP, Tau outshoot DE. Everytiime. DE are MUCH better in assault, but their shooty is inferior to that of guard and Tau.

DE=Mobile
IG=Firepower
Tau=perfect balance.

DE can be setup to be shootier than Tau. They can take masses of S8 lances, splinter weapons, and dirt cheap pieplates, albeit at the expense of assault elements. You're making the mistake I did when I first started playing: assuming that because shooting is what Tau do best, they do it better than everyone else. In contrast, DE can be tooled out to do anything better than any other army, aside from taking a punch. That's their only weak point, and it is a big one, but you tool them up to assault right, and there's nothing that can beat them in assault, tool them up to shoot, and there's nothing that can beat them in shooting, and in any configuration (except foot DE, but that goes without saying, since their vehicles are one of their biggest strengths) they'll dominate in terms of mobility, either through their vehicles or through coming into play in the center of the board through a webway portal. No matter what you do, however, they'll remain fragile, meaning your opponent can break them fairly easy if given the chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, a trio of manticore can destroy a horde army in a turn if you're lucky. 3 Manticores x 4 missiles x up to 3 warheads=36 LBT in a turn.

Manticores don't have four one-shot weapons, they have one four-shot weapon. They can only fire one per turn, meaning a maxium of nine (but an average of six) plates, scattered from three points. DE can beat that, by the way, with twelve plates in a single turn, though only once.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Byte wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I must have different manticores, against SM/SW = fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP= Welcome to the game BTW. I'm surprised your not getting alot of "take your money and run" responses from the vocal anti GW crew.

It is too late. Can't you just feel his neckbeard forming?

Also, a trio of manticore can destroy a horde army in a turn if you're lucky. 3 Manticores x 4 missiles x up to 3 warheads=36 LBT in a turn.

Bad numbers on the missile friend. Only one missile per turn for each turret. That one missile has d3 warheads.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@SirP, Tau outshoot DE. Everytiime. DE are MUCH better in assault, but their shooty is inferior to that of guard and Tau.

DE=Mobile
IG=Firepower
Tau=perfect balance.

DE can be setup to be shootier than Tau. They can take masses of S8 lances, splinter weapons, and dirt cheap pieplates, albeit at the expense of assault elements. You're making the mistake I did when I first started playing: assuming that because shooting is what Tau do best, they do it better than everyone else. In contrast, DE can be tooled out to do anything better than any other army, aside from taking a punch. That's their only weak point, and it is a big one, but you tool them up to assault right, and there's nothing that can beat them in assault, tool them up to shoot, and there's nothing that can beat them in shooting, and in any configuration (except foot DE, but that goes without saying, since their vehicles are one of their biggest strengths) they'll dominate in terms of mobility, either through their vehicles or through coming into play in the center of the board through a webway portal. No matter what you do, however, they'll remain fragile, meaning your opponent can break them fairly easy if given the chance.

DE is the army I started with, so I know their strengths. Nevertheless, I believe I could outshoot any DE list with my XV8/XV9/XV88 spam.

I can tool my XV9s to accomplish ANY task, same with my XV8s, and my XV88s are one of the best transport-popping units in the game.

There are simply next to no units in the game that can beat a trio of XV9s equipped to counter them. Fusion cascades make a joke out of terminators and vehicles, Phased Ion Guns (PIGS) can destroy enormous units with their 8-shot-per-model VoF, pair of TL BC is...well at least it's accurate and the pulse submunitions rifle is a giant space shotgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Byte wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Byte wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I must have different manticores, against SM/SW = fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP= Welcome to the game BTW. I'm surprised your not getting alot of "take your money and run" responses from the vocal anti GW crew.

It is too late. Can't you just feel his neckbeard forming?

Also, a trio of manticore can destroy a horde army in a turn if you're lucky. 3 Manticores x 4 missiles x up to 3 warheads=36 LBT in a turn.

Bad numbers on the missile friend. Only one missile per turn for each turret. That one missile has d3 warheads.

Pretty sure you can burn through all your ammo in one turn if you want to.

Byte wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Byte wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Didn't he say he's going necrons? While I can't agree with choosing anything but Guard over DE, at least it wasn't Space Marines...

Guard isn't tactical enough for a first army.

Step 1: Buy a Manticore

Step 2: laugh as everything before you is destroyed.

I must have different manticores, against SM/SW = fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP= Welcome to the game BTW. I'm surprised your not getting alot of "take your money and run" responses from the vocal anti GW crew.

It is too late. Can't you just feel his neckbeard forming?

Also, a trio of manticore can destroy a horde army in a turn if you're lucky. 3 Manticores x 4 missiles x up to 3 warheads=36 LBT in a turn.

Bad numbers on the missile friend. Only one missile per turn for each turret. That one missile has d3 warheads.

Pretty sure you can burn through all your ammo in one turn if you want to.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@SirP, Tau outshoot DE. Everytiime. DE are MUCH better in assault, but their shooty is inferior to that of guard and Tau.

DE=Mobile
IG=Firepower
Tau=perfect balance.

DE can be setup to be shootier than Tau. They can take masses of S8 lances, splinter weapons, and dirt cheap pieplates, albeit at the expense of assault elements. You're making the mistake I did when I first started playing: assuming that because shooting is what Tau do best, they do it better than everyone else. In contrast, DE can be tooled out to do anything better than any other army, aside from taking a punch. That's their only weak point, and it is a big one, but you tool them up to assault right, and there's nothing that can beat them in assault, tool them up to shoot, and there's nothing that can beat them in shooting, and in any configuration (except foot DE, but that goes without saying, since their vehicles are one of their biggest strengths) they'll dominate in terms of mobility, either through their vehicles or through coming into play in the center of the board through a webway portal. No matter what you do, however, they'll remain fragile, meaning your opponent can break them fairly easy if given the chance.

DE is the army I started with, so I know their strengths. Nevertheless, I believe I could outshoot any DE list with my XV8/XV9/XV88 spam.

I can tool my XV9s to accomplish ANY task, same with my XV8s, and my XV88s are one of the best transport-popping units in the game.

There are simply next to no units in the game that can beat a trio of XV9s equipped to counter them. Fusion cascades make a joke out of terminators and vehicles, Phased Ion Guns (PIGS) can destroy enormous units with their 8-shot-per-model VoF, pair of TL BC is...well at least it's accurate and the pulse submunitions rifle is a giant space shotgun.

Take a look at some of Dash's lists. Nine venoms lay down 108 shots at 36", for 585 points, doing an average of 18 wounds against 3+ armor. Going the Kabalite/Trueborn blaster route (one I don't think is a very good deal, I much prefer haywire wyches for antitank), those venoms will also have 14 blasters, for 684 more points (this also comes with 24 splinter rifles), for another eight (average) wounds, barring cover. Tri-ravagers would have either 9 dark lance shots, or 27 disintegrator shots, depending on how tailored against crisis suits it was, meaning either five or twelve (again, average) wounds, for 315 points. These aren't necessarily optimal configurations, but they outrange the Tau, and can lay down enough fire to wipe every crisis suit off the map on turn one, before mopping up whatever's left on the next. Broadsides are expensive overkill against AV10 skimmers, and not assured to bring anything down on account of their 5+ invuln save.

*Note that I don't particularly like that list configuration, however effective it may be, I'm just including it for the sake of example.

Pretty sure you can burn through all your ammo in one turn if you want to.

You can't, it specifically enumerates that one rocket may be fired per turn. Guard codex page 54: "Note that only a single rocket can be fired by a Manticore Rocket Launcher each turn."

Went with Dark Eldar
I bought a box of Warriors, wyches, and a raider(and the book)
Also I preordered a box of scourges, Wracks, and a Haemonculus

I am playing my friends tau in a tournament in a few weeks which is pretty awesome!

Cool! Best of luck!

SngrFghtr wrote:Went with Dark Eldar
I bought a box of Warriors, wyches, and a raider(and the book)
Also I preordered a box of scourges, Wracks, and a Haemonculus

I am playing my friends tau in a tournament in a few weeks which is pretty awesome!

AWWWWW!

If you have a tau friend, you could have battled him WITH tau just for the fluff awesomeness of Farsight vs. Shadowsun!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@SirP, Tau outshoot DE. Everytiime. DE are MUCH better in assault, but their shooty is inferior to that of guard and Tau.

DE=Mobile
IG=Firepower
Tau=perfect balance.

DE can be setup to be shootier than Tau. They can take masses of S8 lances, splinter weapons, and dirt cheap pieplates, albeit at the expense of assault elements. You're making the mistake I did when I first started playing: assuming that because shooting is what Tau do best, they do it better than everyone else. In contrast, DE can be tooled out to do anything better than any other army, aside from taking a punch. That's their only weak point, and it is a big one, but you tool them up to assault right, and there's nothing that can beat them in assault, tool them up to shoot, and there's nothing that can beat them in shooting, and in any configuration (except foot DE, but that goes without saying, since their vehicles are one of their biggest strengths) they'll dominate in terms of mobility, either through their vehicles or through coming into play in the center of the board through a webway portal. No matter what you do, however, they'll remain fragile, meaning your opponent can break them fairly easy if given the chance.

DE is the army I started with, so I know their strengths. Nevertheless, I believe I could outshoot any DE list with my XV8/XV9/XV88 spam.

I can tool my XV9s to accomplish ANY task, same with my XV8s, and my XV88s are one of the best transport-popping units in the game.

There are simply next to no units in the game that can beat a trio of XV9s equipped to counter them. Fusion cascades make a joke out of terminators and vehicles, Phased Ion Guns (PIGS) can destroy enormous units with their 8-shot-per-model VoF, pair of TL BC is...well at least it's accurate and the pulse submunitions rifle is a giant space shotgun.

Take a look at some of Dash's lists. Nine venoms lay down 108 shots at 36", for 585 points, doing an average of 18 wounds against 3+ armor. Going the Kabalite/Trueborn blaster route (one I don't think is a very good deal, I much prefer haywire wyches for antitank), those venoms will also have 14 blasters, for 684 more points (this also comes with 24 splinter rifles), for another eight (average) wounds, barring cover. Tri-ravagers would have either 9 dark lance shots, or 27 disintegrator shots, depending on how tailored against crisis suits it was, meaning either five or twelve (again, average) wounds, for 315 points. These aren't necessarily optimal configurations, but they outrange the Tau, and can lay down enough fire to wipe every crisis suit off the map on turn one, before mopping up whatever's left on the next. Broadsides are expensive overkill against AV10 skimmers, and not assured to bring anything down on account of their 5+ invuln save.

*Note that I don't particularly like that list configuration, however effective it may be, I'm just including it for the sake of example.

Pretty sure you can burn through all your ammo in one turn if you want to.

You can't, it specifically enumerates that one rocket may be fired per turn. Guard codex page 54: "Note that only a single rocket can be fired by a Manticore Rocket Launcher each turn."

If I deepstrike, your range benefit means nothing.

If I max my FA section with XV9s, I get up to 54 [b]MELTA[/i] shots a turn, just from my FA.

54

Melta

Shots.

Termies and vehicles be SCARED!

If i do a second 40k army i will be doing tau

SngrFghtr wrote:If i do a second 40k army i will be doing tau

Bonus points have been awarded :nods:

1) Melta is overkill against AV10. Also risky when Night Shields and potential bubblewrap with ground troops come into play, keeping deepstrikers too far back to do anything.
2) I just realized an XV9 is a forgeworld model, and so I have no clue what it does. Still looking at a maximum of only three units, though.

I maintain that DE could be tooled up to outshoot any Tau list imaginable, within the constraints of "make a list that could beat Tau using only shooting and no assaults". I don't necessarily think that such a list would work against other armies, namely Guard, who can bring comparable firepower and survive long enough for it to do its job (ironically, what Tau would be better at doing is cracking open a tough Guard list, but that's outside the scope of this comparison). Likewise, I think they could be set up to beat anything in assault, if shooting is removed from the picture.

Of course, these aren't strictly realistic challenges, merely constraints to illustrate their ability to outspecialize any other army (except Guard, on both counts, I believe) in either shooting or assault, if the other is removed from the equation (to prevent things like, say, Tau spamming Kroot to beat shooty DE, or orks spamming shootas to beat stompy DE, since that changes the whole dynamic of the comparison away from the arbitrary "they can do either better than anyone but Guard at the expense of the other"). I think Guard can overspecialize in either as well or better, while being significantly tougher to boot.

Naturally, such constraints aren't found in reality, but they're necessary to establish a context for one army being able to do this or that better than another, while the game in its entirety has too many moving pieces for extreme specialization to carry the day against anything but what it's specifically designed to do.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:1) Melta is overkill against AV10. Also risky when Night Shields and potential bubblewrap with ground troops come into play, keeping deepstrikers too far back to do anything.
2) I just realized an XV9 is a forgeworld model, and so I have no clue what it does. Still looking at a maximum of only three units, though.

I maintain that DE could be tooled up to outshoot any Tau list imaginable, within the constraints of "make a list that could beat Tau using only shooting and no assaults". I don't necessarily think that such a list would work against other armies, namely Guard, who can bring comparable firepower and survive long enough for it to do its job (ironically, what Tau would be better at doing is cracking open a tough Guard list, but that's outside the scope of this comparison). Likewise, I think they could be set up to beat anything in assault, if shooting is removed from the picture.

Of course, these aren't strictly realistic challenges, merely constraints to illustrate their ability to outspecialize any other army (except Guard, on both counts, I believe) in either shooting or assault, if the other is removed from the equation (to prevent things like, say, Tau spamming Kroot to beat shooty DE, or orks spamming shootas to beat stompy DE, since that changes the whole dynamic of the comparison away from the arbitrary "they can do either better than anyone but Guard at the expense of the other"). I think Guard can overspecialize in either as well or better, while being significantly tougher to boot.

Naturally, such constraints aren't found in reality, but they're necessary to establish a context for one army being able to do this or that better than another, while the game in its entirety has too many moving pieces for extreme specialization to carry the day against anything but what it's specifically designed to do.

Automatic meltas are overkill on everything, so the point is moot.

And the rules are in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse II.

But the bubblewrap probably wouldn't be effective against XV9s, since they're designed for VoM. It is called the "close-support" armour for a reason.

And If I were to tool up both my Tau and DE armies for shooting against each other, I think it would be close enough that the dice would be the only factor. They are both very good at shooting /argument.

And as for assault, I agree they could out-assault MOST armies.

I can't see them winning in a melee against any non-tzeentch daemon army. Either units that are crazy skilled at melee (khornate) will always, always strike first (slaaneshi) or are damn-near impossible to kill (Nurglite)

im2randomghgh wrote:And If I were to tool up both my Tau and DE armies for shooting against each other, I think it would be close enough that the dice would be the only factor. They are both very good at shooting /argument.

Fair enough.

I can't see them winning in a melee against any non-tzeentch daemon army. Either units that are crazy skilled at melee (khornate) will always, always strike first (slaaneshi) or are damn-near impossible to kill (Nurglite)

Wyches (and Incubi against anything with Iron Hide), Wyches (only a Herald will strike before them), and Incubi (or just Wyches). Wyches have their 4++ in close combat, and can easily have FnP to boot, making them more resilient than nurglites, while packing almost as much punch as Daemonettes, and costing less than either. It would still be pretty close, at least against Daemonettes, probably enough that chance played a meaningful role in determining the outcome (just attempted to run a test of 200 points of wyches (15 wyches and a haemonculus) against 210 points of daemonettes, and got something (the script isn't set up to take rending or FnP into account, because I've never felt like going back and finishing it) like 6 wounds to the daemonettes and five to the wyches, as an average).

Edit: just simulated Incubi (220 points) versus Plaguebearers (225 points): the Incubi make a laughing stock of them, though take an average of five rounds to take them out, ignoring possible No Retreat! wounds.