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augfubuoy wrote:To be fair, I think that the designers of the IG codex didn't do too good of a job creating *good* units that were fun to play. I mean, they messed up all the abhumans, the rough riders still blow, and now the Stormtroopers suck too! Also, in terms of metagame, it's all about transports, so most games revolve around seeing who can pop tanks the fastest....

I think i agree with this assessment 110%. Storm troopers got kicked in the balls, ogryns dont do a damn thing, ratlings suck, and rough riders arent worth piss. The game is so set towards mech it really is a game of who can bring the biggest, best and most guns. Swarm got junk punched do to the amazing-ness of the manticore and how many orks a russ can kill. Not to mention how hard a purifier squad can pound any big squad off the board (whether it's orks, guants or blob guard). I have absolutely no respect for Kan wall at all, Ive never seen that army do and ive seen very good players try to play it. And with the only good form of guard being the kind that sits backs and shoots over and over again i really do think this this dex being boring as hell. The lists that do look entertaining also look like they would consist of me setting up alot of models then slowly taking them off over a six turn span. I want my army to be good but fun while also being hard to play. Im thinking im ether gonna pick up DE or Orks.

Imperial guards are fun:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369133.page

I've had more fun with Ogryns than almost any unit in the codex. Good, but not OP, and a completely different kind of unit than anything else in the Codex. You say they don't to anything, but have you tried them? They're one of those units that math-hammer doesn't completely do justice. Besides, if you win all the time, a handicap should make games more competitive, right? Really, though, please don't complain about the army being boring if you're only willing to take a few of the units.

Alternatively, seek out some better opponents.

Biophysical wrote:I've had more fun with Ogryns than almost any unit in the codex. Good, but not OP, and a completely different kind of unit than anything else in the Codex. You say they don't to anything, but have you tried them? They're one of those units that math-hammer doesn't completely do justice. Besides, if you win all the time, a handicap should make games more competitive, right? Really, though, please don't complain about the army being boring if you're only willing to take a few of the units.

Alternatively, seek out some better opponents.

I owned ten of them at one point and I took them all the time because they have a funny story background but they would get shot down at any point they werent in a chimera. Ive also tried ratlings and they just sit there and do nothing and people ignore them because they suck. The most fun Ive had with that list was putting three storm trooer squads in Valkyries with plasma guns and ether scouting up and dropping them turn one if i go first or outflanking them if i go second. And I know i shouldnt complain about it but I put way to much money into this army for it to be so-so on the fun scale.

@searth That does look like a fun list to play, maybe I should stop bitching and tone down the competitive lists to have fun. Which is another problem. No one at my FLGS likes to play for fun. everything has to be for life and death competition

Has your use of Ogryns been with the most recent codex? I find that T5 and 3 wounds means a huge amount of firepower is required to take them down, as S10 is fairly rare. Even with largish models, it's not hard to get cover. I do tend to run them in a Chimera, though. This gives them a couple turns of protection and extra movement, and allows me to silence any overwhelming threats to them before they get out. It is really the best assault unit the Guard have. If you run the numbers they don't even stack up that badly vs. Assault Terminators.

The recent codex is all Ive used them in. I would drive the chimera up, pop smoke, if it didnt get popped Id hop them out, move, shoot and assault something. If it did blow they would ether fail pinning or get shot down to the point of taking morale and failing. Otherwise they normally would kill whatever they hit but would be shot off the board the fallowing turn. They are to expensive imo for this to be a good use of them. Has anyone else had a different experiance? If so let me know, i may be playing them wrong

Yeah, I think so. I don't particularly like painting them. There isn't enough room for fun stuff, like chaotic emblems on they're faces, or bubbling flesh, etc.

I also hate playing guard. Looking at a stationary parking lot that puts out enough dakka to silence the important aspects of the opponents army almost without fail, each turn, is not fun.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, I think so. I don't particularly like painting them. There isn't enough room for fun stuff, like chaotic emblems on they're faces, or bubbling flesh, etc.

I guess this is one thing i do like about them, i can paint pretty well but it takes me forever so an army that can be painted (to a pretty decent standard) with a can of spray paint is right up my alley.

@Deuce11 I agree, the parking lot of death isnt fun at all to play

Just wondering but what can be described as "fun"?

I happen to find Marbo funny and to have 50 conscripts dancing around on the field.

Why not try an all infantry list? I happen to find it quite funny when NORMAL humans beat the crap out of gigantic aliens, fancy aliens, heretics and super humans.

Rough Riders and Stormtroopers are still quite useful.
Rough Riders should be used to assault strong opponents in close combat that rely on they armor-save. (Think of terminators...)

Stormtroopers are quite useful for me, because I have to run across the entire field. The ability to drop some plasmagunners or meltagunners with BS4 in some nasty corner is quite useful. Perhaps you want them to pin? Also possible.
Sure, veterans are ''better'' but veterans are for a different purpose. Veterans are scoring and should be able to snatch an objective.
Stormtroopers take an elite slot and should be used agressivly (<--- how do I spell that one?) . It doesn't matter if they die, they aren't scoring and they are just ~110 points.
Veterans on the other hand are more expensive and cannot deepstrike.

Besides that, because of the objectives, Stormtroopers allow a certain versality in the game without buying another upgrade.

-Loner

So, you're probably finding mech guard boring, because it IS boring. Mech guard has exactly 1 phase: shooting. Deployment is usually a given formation every game. Proper leaflblowers often all but skip the movement phase altogether, and they never get into close combat if they can help it. Really, it's nothing more than lining up some minis in more or less the same way every time and playing a slightly complicated game of yahtzee.

In order to play in such a way that is more entertaining, you need to play an army that actually uses all the phases, and has the ability to use the phases differently in different situations. Armies with little long-range firepower, for example, wind up having much different deployments between games than a mech list, and armies that have some amount of close combat power wind up using every phase of the game, which is a lot more involved, and thus a lot less boring.

The best part is that you're blessed with a codex that allows you competitive army types that are more interesting to play. The leafblower is A competitive guard build, but it's not the ONLY competitive guard build. Your codex has a lot to offer, unless...

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Storm troopers got kicked in the balls, ogryns dont do a damn thing, ratlings suck, and rough riders arent worth piss. The game is so set towards mech it really is a game of who can bring the biggest, best and most guns. Swarm got junk punched do to the amazing-ness of the manticore and how many orks a russ can kill.

...you have a really bad attitude about most of the stuff in your codex. You seem to think that nothing outside of vendettas, manticores, and mechvets are even REMOTELY good, which is causing you to only pick really boring lists in order to be competitive.

Just take a deep breath and realise that you're wrong. Almost everything in the guard codex can be used competitively. Disabuse your thoughts otherwise. Once you start seeing everything as potentially competitive, the codex opens up a LOT of options to you, some of which are VERY interesting to play.

Plus, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you'd have this same problem all over again if you switched armies. If you're only ever looking for a THE ONE list, you're going to be bored no matter which army you play.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you'd have this same problem all over again if you switched armies. If you're only ever looking for a THE ONE list, you're going to be bored no matter which army you play.

This. I agree COMPLETELY. This is the essence, i too think, of this particular kind of problem. I have seen it often, in almost any kind of tactical wargame (other games too), where a player narrows his thinking, strategy, build, tactics etc. down to ONE absolutely-best-most- overpowered/unexploitable build+tactic, and THEN gets bored with his army/playstyle/the game.

The boredom comes more from playing the SAME list/game in exactly the same way without variation, over and over (and with good success)...

So IF you wanna have fun instead: The answer aint too difficult... MIX IT UP, both list/build wise and tactics wise. Dont be scared, you can do it
And if you cant i think the second best answer is to start building one of the weakest armies you can find, so you can go for the absolutely most powerful build+tactics and still (maybe!) not be bored, not because of variation, but because you dont win (everytime) and thus have a challenge still...

When I make my list, I make it as a balanced force that you would see in a modern combat battalion. 6 vets in transports with melta and russes, only? Not likely. Where's Special Forces support? Artillery? Scout and Recon skirmish vehicles? My list takes a different strategy, Outflank with half of my forces and encircle the enemy with multiple lanes of fire and oversaturate my opponents list of targets. Does he go to pop the tanks and leave the vendetta and storm troopers and marbo and the Scout Sentinels to fire on their flank? Or do they focus their fire on the new threats and forget about the heavy support?

Well I am glad you liked the DE. I hope I can get those guardsmen and Valkyries off of you. I have no idea if it would be a good list, but I am going to try it.

Yall are absolutely right, I do have a very narrow thought pattern when it comes to competition. Its almost like Ive went through that codex with a sharpie and marked out what i think sucks. All in all what youre telling me is: I must unlearn what I have learned.
I think I need to start over like Ive never played this game before and play the hell out of everything in the codex to see what it does. Ugh, its gonna be a long process

Good luck, man.

You have my support.

This thread has actually been pretty helpful. I hope someone else can get some use out of it

What you suggest sounds like a good idea. Every once in a while, I play a game where I think, "Man, it would be great if I had a unit that did X." And not uncommonly, I find it, particularly when I've been away from the game for a while and start making lists from a fresher perspective.

One of the great things about a tabletop game vs. a card game are added dimensions. The easiest analysis of units and armies ends up looking like a game of Magic. What "cards" do you have to beat other "cards". The analysis degenerates into straight up kills/point mathhammer. A little bit deeper analysis gets you ease of kills/point, which is basically (kills/point) * mobility. However, people that have played a long time often have a bit more intuitive feel for how useful a unit is. This is sometimes because of experience, as they understand more that there are lots of way to win games that don't required total annihilation of the opposing force, but oftentimes it is because they're stuck with legacy models from old editions, and as times change, they try out "suboptimal" stuff because it's what they have and in turn find its less obvious strengths. This gives them some insight into less obvious strengths of other "suboptimal" units.

Admittedly, some lists, like leafblower Guard, play well with this sort of analysis because everything has such good threat range that you can sort of point and click your way to victory in many situations. That doesn't mean it's the only, or even most effective way, to win with Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since I brought it up earlier, 5 Ogryns in a Chimera + a Lord Commissar w/ PF to keep them in line is how I've had the most success. It's pricey, but it's super tough. I honestly don't understand how you've had Ogryn units shot off the board. There's so few units that can put damage on them in a points effective manner.

I actually found this thread inspiring to avoid a spam-filled guard army.

Guard can be fun/silly not as silly as green skins buit you can make a fun list that isnt cheesy and too spammy.
You will end up with duplicates because they are guard and thats what happens.

samwellfrm wrote:I actually found this thread inspiring to avoid a spam-filled guard army.

Yeap, spam guard has really made me lose my love for the army. They used to be my favorite army out there.

I do really wish we could return to the old dex. The new dex has really pushed my love for the guard to the way side. Even now I am trying all kinds of builds to see what I can come up with. The issue is that everybody is spaming tanks and armour and what good will ratlings do if your opp is armoured up? As well as GW push to crank out a new army for people to spam.

Yeah, I run 10 Ogryns too in my foot Guard list. Lord Commissar is nice, but I don't want him to kill my Bone 'ead on a bad leadership roll, plus they already have Stubborn. Since you can't put a Priest in with them, running Yarrick with them is the only real choice. He gives them a power fist, Ld 10, and no execution. I also like having Creed in my army for 'Move!x3' and other orders. 'For Cadia!' doesn't effect them, though the Fearless is nice, but it would effect the Commissar with them.

Ogryns also make an excellent pinning force in combination with Rough Riders.