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decoste007xt didn't seem to take it too personally he probably followed the link in my sig, and went "fair enough".

So if it seems too personal for you, go double lash someone with your familiar

-.-

Im afraid I'll have to field 20 demons next game, with blended red to orange swords their coolness will prevail them immortality


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I also have a problem where my buddy picked up more orkz.. and now i could be facing nearly 120 of them in a game. I'm thinking of atleast 1 raptor squad to get in deep to allow a well positioned deepstrike or prehaps try my hand at luck and see where the demons land. No luck on finding anymore rhinos unless i pump out some cash

no raptors
nononononono

not against orcs, its a pointsink that you cant afford

Definitely load up on plague marines & berzerkers. I'm an ork player & I know from experience that these units hurt.

I don't usually run nobz, so consequently berzerkers just chew right through most stuff in my army. As an ork player, theyre a massive target priority. After the first time you never make the mistake of letting them get into combat.

Plague marines likewise are very tough to kill, especially for squads without a power klaw. Ive had games where one unit of plague marines has taken charges from 3 units before they've gone down. Theyre also very resilient against massed loota fire.

Well if im looking for numbers here isn't taking CSM/Demons a safer bet? he doesnt run a squad without a powerklaw so i will probably lose 2-3 plague marines per combat Just to the claw, meaning probably after a charge I'll have a guy or two left standing. CSM will mean I dont have the 5T or FNP to help negate regular boy hits, but vs a claw its more wounds to expend. I'm also thinking more gunfire to widdle him down before he reaches me, also regardless of a charge they will hit first. I can field a few more.. I was thinking of fielding a 20 man squad, but i dont like a huge squad like that.. except w/ the Mark of Khorne its costing me just over 1pt a guy to add 1A.

Someone else suggested it, and it sounds pretty solid to me, 3A, or 4A on a charge.. always hit first. 24inch range, and ability to rapidfire. With boltguns i wont need to worry about being in combat ASAP, and running.. This is where i come to zerkers, only owning 1 rhino and knowing full well he runs his boyz with rokkits that 1 rhino is a major target and will likely explode on turn 1 or 2 before it gets close enough to do its job. Leaving Zerkers taking a 4S hit if it explodes, and likely not in range or being pinned if i fail leadership. Dont get me wrong if i had more rhinos I'd love zerkers, but I'm afraid that they wont be as useful as boltguns hitting for probably 2 turns while they run across the field, or blow up, or get pinned.

This doesn't mean i wont use them, I'm just brainstorming with what I got and how it may play out.

I'm also thinking of only taking 1 havoc squad if i do, once orkz come into combat their fairly useless so charging guys in that i spend 20pts per gun on makes me think maybe i should of spent it somewhere else.

Daemon Prince with Wings and warptime to take out killahkans sounds ideal... my new problem is he bought a KFF Big Mek. I fought this damn thing before and I know I need to kill it as fast as i can if i want any gunfire to do well, or blow any vehicles up at a range (altho thats why the DP has wings/warptime)

What weapon has the largest, strongest Blast template, and what weapon has the highest rate of fire?

And can Obliterators or Defilers take them?

Heavy bolters is 3 S5 Shots.. at 15pt a marine and 15pts a gun... Noise marines come in 2nd place with 3 heavy boltgun shots or 2 assault shots.....

Pie plate via a defiler or a vindicator. As I only own 7 noise marines, and 1 defiler.. but i do own 10 havocs now.

Obliterators can take plasma cannons but 75 pt units isnt going to be a good idea in this game of horde

Tyranic Marta wrote:no raptors
nononononono

not against orcs, its a pointsink that you cant afford

Go back and do the math on raptors, especially with MoK. You will be surprised.

Raptors get a lot of attacks, and, most importantly, are fast enough to guarantee that you steal the charge away from a mob of boyz. They're actually pretty good in this role.

Anvildude wrote:What weapon has the largest, strongest Blast template

decoste007xt wrote:Heavy bolters is 3 S5 Shots.. at 15pt a marine and 15pts a gun... Noise marines come in 2nd place with 3 heavy boltgun shots or 2 assault shots.....

Three words, Kustom Force Field.

I know, i hate KFF... it gives vehicles 4+ and troops 5+ =(

10 CSM , 2 flamers, MoK. 190pts

10 Raptors, 2 flamers, MoK 240 pts, 50 points sounds worth it for 12inch mobility, your right I will likely get the charge.. I will also likely get the flamers in. I thought about running 2 squads of 5 to get 4 flamer templates in at them yeah they'd likely die, but it also means all his boys pick to attack 1 of the 2 squads tying them up longer while my other guys run in. In addition i wondered if template weapons will be effected by a KFF?

of couse they will, template only ignores cover wheras KFF gives invulny

Tyranic Marta wrote:of couse they will, template only ignores cover wheras KFF gives invulny

cover save. It is a cover save.

Jihallah wrote:

Tyranic Marta wrote:of couse they will, template only ignores cover wheras KFF gives invulny

cover save. It is a cover save.

You two again! Lol.

its a cover save? really? AWSOME that makes things so much easier for me

CSM tip vs orks number 1)

Read their codex. Read their codex no matter what army they are playing

shhhh its one of the only ones i dont have yet


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i can quote almost any codex except fo rthe current GK eldar and orks

Tyranic Marta wrote:shhhh its one of the only ones i don't have yet


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i can quote almost any codex except fo rthe current GK eldar and orks

Then quote me the bit that lets you double lash with a familiar

Also, that has got to be one of the BEST posts on the internet. just for its glory:

Tyranic Marta wrote:i can quote almost any codex except fo rthe current GK eldar and orks

Would you like a medal or something?

nope, im just saying
it actually pisses me off that i havt got those last codicies

like seriously it really annoys me

Tyranic Marta wrote:nope, im just saying
it actually pisses me off that i havt got those last codicies

like seriously it really annoys me

Oh god that has me in stitches. Either that is just plain hilarious or I just got so trolled I can only laugh at myself

o.O my head just popped with confusion

Tyranic Marta wrote:o.O my head just popped with confusion

I enjoy you guys help, but if its some sort of personal rivalry can it be taken elsewhere?

Also I thought KFF was different than a cover save, but indeed i didnt look it up. I just trusted the player, maybe he interpretted it wrong. Would this go for any template weapon like large blasts, blast, flamer, wind of chaos , etc? I hit him with a bunch of flamethrowers this weekend ( I was hitting nearly 22 orkz with 1 flamethrower, and i hit with 7 that turn). Not only did i roll terribly but I screwed over by the KFF....

I'll post how it went when im less drunk.

templates ignore cover saves.

Templates are not blasts (large or small)

Only templates are what you use when you blast away with a flamer, or heavy flamer.

All template attacks ignore cover, and as a result they ignore everything that a KFF can provide.

This sounds like a bad idea now, but at the time it sounded great. Keeping in mind most of what this list has is ALL i have. So I can't do any dual defilers, or vindicators, or bunches of rhinos.

My List:

Daemon Prince, MoT, Waprtime, Wings

20 Khorne Berzerkers

20 CSM w/ MoK, 2 flamers

x3 7 PM, x2 flamers

Defiler

x10 Raptors, MoK, x2 flamers


Friend had roughly... 2 KFF Big Meks, x3 30 shootah boyz w/ nob/bosspole/pk, x2 trukks w/ x5 nobs, powerklaws/bigchoppahs/painboy,etc (he had them setup in a way they all were different to allocate wounds) 15 Lootahs, x4 deff koptas (2 squads), x20 gretchin.


I wanted to play aggressively, i realize ideally the zerkers should of been in rhinos, as well as my SM split up into 10's with MoK.. but we went form playing a 1000pts to 2000pts so it was all good fun.

He won roll off, chose for me to go first. We rolled Annhiliation, Spear Head. I deployed.. he deployed.. I spent all of turn one moving and running up. Defy shot into the 4 koptas that scouted a turbo boost, killing one i was hoping to get rid of them fast, usually i use the ordinance for the boyz but they were hidden behind too much. When it came time for the koptas defy got hit with a rokkit and got wrecked.Moved up guys again, i had killed roughly 10 orkz with my CSM w/ boltguns, unloaded the PM into the gretchins that were bottlenecking him (only unit not under a KFF). DP and his raptors killed the remaining deffkoptas.

Shootahs all fired at ONE PM squad, and i sustained 0 wounds, nearly 120 shots into 7 PM and nothing happened, i loved it! Then he rolled a 1 on the lootas, 15 shots into my CSM and only 1 died. He moved up the trukks and i wasnt so worried.. I had been running and moving my khorne berzerkers up, i was so amped to get them into combat.

Next turn i moved my guys up further, unloaded more shots into boyz, rolled badly.. and KFF saved most of them.. moved plague marines up... next turn id be ready to fry me up some orkz! DP and his Raptors kept movin along, i got to shoot some orkz w/ the pistols, did some surprisingly damage, even hit with flamer templates barely but not within proper range!

The half of his turn was the most devestating thing I had ever seen, an ork boy squad got into combat with my khorne berzerkers, both trukks unloaded.. and i had 10 nobz, and 20 boyz w/ a pk nob all hitting the 20 khorne berzerkers. No problem right? 60 attacks? lets split 30 to 1 nob squad, and 30 to the other.. im not worried about boyz but man nobz hit hard!........ I got 1 wound on the nobz.. ONE WOUND. Guess what happened to me ? after powerklaws and bigchoopas my entire 20 man squad of khorne berzerkers was dead. I had lost 420 pts in a single turn, 20 guys. I couldnt beleive it, i understand that PK's rock normal guys, but only causing 1 wound? that felt devestating...

Next turn, i was able to get off countless flamer templates, killing gretchins...ork boyz... flaming with raptors, then charging w/ them and the DP. PM soaked up all the loota shots ( i kid you not these lootahs rolled a 1 for 4 turns, then rolled a 6.. they shot at 1 PM squad for 4 turns and i never lost any guys.

I did great in CC! Raptors and prince shredded a full boyz squad all but his Big Mek.. then on his turn he charged the nobz in.. and it was so painful. I lost all the raptors, and the demon prince died.. After that the next turn i flamed the gak out of him but terrible rolls.. nobz charged PM and destroyed them.. turn 5 it was over.I felt losing 20 khorne berzerkers like that.. was aweful. The defiler didnt do anything really, the khorne berzerkers got owned! Shootahs didnt hurt really, Lootahs were a joke.. but those Nobz were the bane of my existance, the truks were always in behind terrain i had no clear shots.. i really wished i put more powerfists in my army or PW.. but i figure who needs costly weapons to kill boyz? (he never brings nobz) i was so very very wrong..

There's a reason almost every single Ork list takes a Nob squad. Just about the only way to kill them is with double toughness weapons (so Powerfists, DCCW or really, really strong MCs) or a lot of Power Weapon or AP1/2 shots, because they will have a Painboy, with Cybork and Feel No Pain, and they may very well have 'eavy Armour, and they'll probably be toting enough Big Choppas and Powerklaws to munch through anything aside from dedicated Nob killers.

And never, NEVER let Orks get the charge if you want to survive.

I was trying to nullify his charge, but it was devestating. I think the safest approach would of been to gear up with some plasma guns to nullifying armor, and FNP.

The only CSM unit orks need to be really worried about is the lash prince. The 2 best tricks with lash is to cluster boys for a template/pie, or move them closer to CSM units to steal the charge away from the boys. Vanilla CSM and PM are very nasty when they get the charge on boys.

The ork solution is simple and easy: Lootas. They wound a deamon prince on a 2+, so against lootas a lash deamon prince is no more difficult to kill than 4 tactical marines. Make the lash prince your top priority for long ranged shooting and games against chaos will go a lot more smooth.

decoste007xt wrote:I was trying to nullify his charge, but it was devestating. I think the safest approach would of been to gear up with some plasma guns to nullifying armor, and FNP.

Get some 'ing rhino's! You're dieing in CC from either a) lots o' boys or B) da klaws. If da boyz and da klaw charge da rhino, da rhino goes boom. Your going to be wounded on a 4+ (5+ for nurgle) and you will save 2/3rds of your wounds. Every ork hit by the explosion is wounded on a 5+ (it adds up with large numberrrrrs) and then they will save 1/6th of their armor saves. So in da ork turn, their charge made you lose a rhino and them lose some boyz. Then you flame them, and charge them! Since the nob is going to be the last one they remove, keep at least ONE marine near the nob- that way, you can't be denied the charge, because they removed all the models closest to you! So they lose a bucketload of boyz to the flamer, and any thats left, you charge them! Orks don't like wounding space marines on a 5+ after getting Barbecued!

The only thing he has to take on your rhino's at range are deffkoptaz and lootaz, now it may be obvious, but you should keep that very much in mind. If the lootaz cant see the rhino, he can't pop it! If the deffkoptaz are dead or engaged in combat, he can't pop it! "but da boyz and their powerklaws will charge my rhino D:!", is not what you want to hear in your head, and if it is, read above please.

The same logic applies to his TRUKKS. The point of transports, not trukks, not wave serpents, not rhino's, the point of transports is to get a unit where you NEED them. He (your opponent) would have been worried about 20 'zerkers. Unless you handle 'em right, 20 'zerkers can do some nasty . So he didn't charge you with 1 mob- he charged you with 1 mob AND two trukks worth of nobs! Also out of curiosity, did your zerkers hit on a 3+ in Close combat? they should vs boyz, and they should vs nobs UNLESS the nobs have a waaauuuggh banner (the one that gives +1WS). And his nobs should have hit you on a 4+, if he had a waaauugghh banner and thought your had WS4 like a regular marine, he would be hitting you on 3+, but your zerkers have WS5. So, what did he do? He threw a big mob and his 2 dedicated CC units into your zerkers. via the trukks. IF those trukks were smoldering wrecks on HIS side of the field, where they started, would he have been able to charge you with those 3 units at once? 1 squad of havocs might have prevented that situation from happening.


Here is an article about tactics that is very useful and will improve your understanding of the game as a general.

Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to dominate a particular phase, and "inflict" their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to dominate a particular phase, and "inflict" their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Good Water armies use well rounded, generalist troops.

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schadenfreude wrote:The only CSM unit orks need to be really worried about is the lash prince. The 2 best tricks with lash is to cluster boys for a template/pie, or move them closer to CSM units to steal the charge away from the boys. Vanilla CSM and PM are very nasty when they get the charge on boys.

The ork solution is simple and easy: Lootas. They wound a deamon prince on a 2+, so against lootas a lash deamon prince is no more difficult to kill than 4 tactical marines. Make the lash prince your top priority for long ranged shooting and games against chaos will go a lot more smooth.

That is an excellent point for orks. For lootaz, ANY daemon prince=4 marine wounds. Your always wounding on a 2+, and your always saving on a 3+ for the DP. My friend had some teething problems with DP's, then one game he had nothing to shoot at with his lootaz BUT a DP. When he asked what he wounded/what i saved on, his face lit up- your could see the cogs turns. "Yes. To lootaz, he is a space marine with 4 wounds. No matter what the mark, he is a really big marine with issues taking cover to lootaz "


Now the always crows when my DP does the bullet dance. Then cries when the rhino's he wasn't shooting at start punching on with him

He took a WAAAGH banner so we were hitting each other on 4's, yeah i realize i need rhinos badly. I'm ordering some from TripleHelix probably in a few days ($20 a rhino <3).

I know i got devestated, as the point costly, and the #'s were against the Zerkers but i wish I atleast killed 1!!!.. 1 wound.. blarg is just demoralizing.

Hopefully I can muster up atleast 2 rhinos.. ideally 3.. as i said before i loved that post about castling, and creating rhino-made walls

Im fearing using the DP, but everyone i talk to uses one.. would there be a merit to using any other CSM heroes? I was thinking Typhus but he's costly.. or even just a Terminator Lord.. or a Lord on a Khorne Juggernaut