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Hey guys, I had a game vs 2 friends of mine. One was an Ork player, the other a SM player, this is more about the Orkz than the SM though but i realized something scary in that game.

Whats the best method of handling a green tide army? i find CSM cost 2-3x more than an Ork boy and in CC (as long as Ork gets the charge for # of attacks and gets his 4S) that Orkz destroy me in melee. Yes I know Orkz are suppose to be powerful in melee, but I've been told CSM are also powerful in melee. I managed to 50% of 2 30boy sluggah squads that had a powerklaw, bosspole, and an entire 12 man ard boy squad w/ a powerklaw nob. They remaing squads of 15 clashed with 2 5 man plasma gun, plague marine squads w/ powerfist and they just got eaten alive! I always read that the idea is to kill as many orkz as possible before you engage them, so rushing at them doesn't quite sound too ideal... But facing a lot of powerklaw attacks can be horrific against plague marines as their instant deathed, no armor save, and no FNP.

I did manage to kill a 10 man SM squad with 1 Battlecannon shot on my first turn, I didnt lose a single model until the beginning of turn 4. Then it all came apart, heres an example of my list.

HQ: Demon Prince, MoT, GoC, Wings

Elite: Terminators x 8, heavy flamer, 2 combi flamers

Dreadnaught w/ x2 CCW

Troops: x2 x5 terminators w/ 2 plasma guns, champ w/ powerfist

x10 lesser demons

Heavy: x5 havocs w/ x4 autocannons

x5 havocs w/ 4 missle launchers

Defiler, x2 CCW.


Defiler got immoblized turn 1 by an lascannon, but as i said killed the enemy squad outright. Dreadnaught was immobilized but killed 10 Ard Boyz, w/ the lesser daemons cleaning it up with him. Autocannon havocs shot at 1 boy squad, missle launchers at another.. buildings blocked pie plates. Plague marines constantly shot into the boy squads as well. Terminators/Demon Prince were engaged with the SM players terminators, i turned 2 guys into spawns, and sadly forgot 1 turn to roll my GoC.. the ability seems to hit often and seems to be quite effective way of turning termies to goo.

I had to deploy first, the idea was to place the prince and the termies near the orkz to utilize the heavy flamer and 2 combi flamers.. but that didnt happen on their deployment..

I know this is a tactics area and this is why i came here.

I feel that the terminators may of been a bad choice, I'm always worried about troops that are so few and can easily be dispatched by powerklaws, ap1/ap2 weapons at a range but i wanted something tough to run with my prince. To be honest the way it worked out is a point i had to capture was around a chunk of impassble terrain and the princes base got in the way for getting my terminators in base constant on a charge and it made me only able to hit with a few models.. im thinking of having lesser daemons go in with him as he was the only one in the combat actually killing stuff effectively, bad luck perhaps though.

Lesser Daemons, I used them in a game first at 1000pts, and i killed 14 orkz after they deepstriked in. We learned later that you cant assault even after a deepstrike, i thought demons could but I read it in a rules.. well we learn something new every game and its all fun! (i also lost^^. I'm thinking at 20 they'd become a lot more effective, also a friend told me i could possibly take them as "allies" and use their rules from the daemon codex? I read up on them, 3pts more in cost, but their all power weapons, and furious charge.. and a few other abilities. Is this true ? Id' definately spend 3pts a model to give power weapons ! hah

Havocs Autocannons: Always a good choice so far, no light vehicles to kill but my friend often has a truck or kans.. so that was a precaution.. also their good at killing orkz rather than heavy bolters i find.

Havocs missle launchers: did okay but he spread his guys out, so usually i got 1 guy on a direct hit, 2 on a scatter.. but often wounding was hard.. i felt maybe autocannons would of got me more but i wanted to try it out.

Plague Marines: these babies have never done me wrong, but I have to say this game they got steam rolled, getting cut down by powerklaw attacks makes having 5 guys pain.. and i wish i had the prince over there.

Defiler: earned his points back turn 1 by killing a 10man SM squad w/ a lascannon, sadly he was immobilized and 1 pieplate killed 2 orkz on a scatter.. and end of turn 5 i shot at 12 orkz in a risky situation.. and scattered over killing 3/5 plague marines in 1 of my squads.

Dreadnaught: did a lot of damage, was ignored as well! i wish i let him have his heavy flamer or something as he didnt go crazy.

Daemon Prince: MoT 4+ invunerable helped, ill likely take it next time.. everyone told me Gift of chaos was a bad thing.. but i have to say every turn i was killing a terminator with it. MoT allows 2 spells cast ( right?) and i was landing 1 a turn on him. I also had a question, monstrous creatures fire ranged weapons twice, and Tzneetchian princes can cast 2 spells... Can i cast shooting weapon spells twice? i saw so much up in the air about it. As firing 2 bolts of change while i move up the field would be a nice hidden anti- armor weapon.


I feel vs a horde maybe replace plague marines w/ groups of CSM armed with flamers prehaps would do a better job? maybe a 5man chosen squad w/ flamers as well to beef up the templates.. I've taken flamers in the past and find im always charged first.. but I was thinking of a Lash of Submission Prince would give me some control so i could flamer enemies easier.

Any thoughts? my main concern is these damn mushrooms! .. i mean orkz!










Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch the question about the Chaos demons in a CSM codex.. i read that they were stripped from 5th Ed CSM. I guess not a lot of CSM players are happy they lost most of their demons in 5th ed to a static demon profile that applies to any demon... boo.


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Im also thinking of dropping the prince for a daemon weapon wielding khorne chaos lord for CC as I read that Monstrous Creatures cant allocate wounds to the squad cause they can be picked out in ranged combat from the squad.. cause their monstrous. But non-monstrous are fine.

In short.
Chaos Terminators aren't very good vs Orks. The sheer volume of attacks will see terminators dying to an Ork charge.
Their power weapon attacks are largely useless due to the fact that Orks have a very bad armour save as it is.
8 Terminators attacking will not kill as many as 16 CSM.

I'm assuming the terminators listed under your troops was a typo since you can't take Chaos Terminators as troops.

The Tzeentch Daemon Prince isn't a good option against Orks neither is the gift of Chaos power. Slaanesh Prince with the Lash of submission is perfect. But many people scoff at its use. Other option would be a Nurgle prince with warptime.

4 Missile launchers are better than autocannons imho. People may disagree throwing around some math but if an Ork player is fielding a nob squad ive found those missile launchers can be very effective.

Also plasma guns are next to useless against Orks. Either flamers for mass bakeage or meltas to pop kans/battlewagons etc.

Yeah typo on the Terminators.

Terminators were to combat his friend. It was 750 orkz , 750 SM vs 1500 me. So i took terminators to combat his terminators, and ran them behind a building where he was camping an objective.

From how it reads Gift of chaos turns the selection model into a spawn or a pile of goo. Meaning I get to pick what dies, like a Nob leading a squad, or a HQ, stating since no wounds are taken no saves are made. It sounds incredibly powerful for offing units leading squads and heroes.. or am i reading this wrong?

I usually take nurgles rot w/ MoN vs Orkz, i find it cleans up.. ill have to try warptime.

As with the missle launchers i suppose vs orkz they could be.. even when i scattered I atleat hit 1 ork model but wounding them was hard since frag missles arnt that tough.

I'm thinking of canning the plague marine sand just taking more CSM w/ flamers.. and yeah probably swapping out the termies for more CSM... and possibly a 5 man Chosen squad w/ flamers to really burn em up!

Thanks for the input.

one word: khorne

Orks are good because they put down a huge number of attacks, but that's about all. They are, ironically enough, very vulnerable to things that also put out a huge number of attacks (which your current army list has nothing of).

Replace those terminators with terminators with a mark of khorne, and everyone gets lightning claws, then laugh as they destroy mobz with ease. Alternately, berzerkers, or regular marines with MoK will put down a huge number of attacks. Double tapping them with bolters and then still getting 3 attacks BEFORE the boyz, even when they charge will put down an awful lot of green before they get a chance to really apply their large number of attacks. Once boy mobz start taking serious casualties, their killing power diminishes in a hurry, which CSM is plenty able to do.

That and you can always take summoned lesser demons to throw up an assault screen in front of your real units, allowing you to get the charge in on the boyz the next turn. Even a regular squad of CSM is going to put down a pretty serious amount of hurt on a boy mob if they get the charge in.

I was thinking of fielding the khorne warriors but I hear you should put them in rhinos, i got nearly 20 khornee warriors but only 1 rhino :( I could probably proxy one though.

Out of the 6 games I've had this is honestly the first time i took terminators.. and the Khorne Claw setup made me drool a little..especially if they were all champions ( probably a waste i know).

but 8 terminators, with 4 attacks each, 5 on a charge.. and rerolling to wound with no armor saves. I'm going to say atleast 15 hit, which cuts his mob in half.. and likely i kill atleast 5-8 ( i did that game w/ all the buildings) with guns while he runs across.. so that would put him without Mob rule.

Question about mob rule and fearless, so long as theres 11+ boyz the mob is fearless. If i kill enough that the mob drops below 11 when we add up casualites in the end does he roll leadership or use the fearless rule? I know if he's above 11, he has fearless and when you lose combat by .. lets say 5 wounds he takes 5 wounds and gets his 6+ t-shirt saves. But I've seen bad ork rolls after killing 10 guys on a lesser daemon charge he loses another 5-6 cause he lost the combat by that many.

Does that make any sense what I'm asking?

You right, my army lacks a lot of attacks, i need to peel myself away from plague marines..damn you grandpa nurgle.. damn you.



Also the lash of submission i used one game was quite amazing.. i was impressed as i kept 1/2 30 boy squads at range the entire game so they couldnt shoot or assault.. LOS issues and.. not taking any really long ranged units meant i had nothing to shoot them with though as they lashed around (i usually rolled 10's). But I felt i was missing the combat effectiveness of the prince.. that a sorcerer would be better suited for that? I just like how much he tears up in CC.. and i can see lashing being useful ALL game.

If you felt you were missing the cvombat effectiveness, then try lashing them to you next time. Guarantee yourself the charge, with Lash

You don't need to pull away from plague marines, you need to use them well A good tradesmen doesn't blame his tools!

they should be squads of 7. First, it's nurgle's sacred number- your dice will already be more blessed! second, 5 mangs die quick. The amount of games I've won via a plague marine or two, the last two guys in the squad, sitting on an objective going "It's mine you er's!" and giving the opposing army the finger... 7 is the number you want. 5 is too minimum, and 10 is too many- they are expensive little buggers. And don't give them plasmaguns, unless your playing vs lots of marines. They love flamers and meltaguns too! With a rhino they can make a absolutely skull crackingly hard rock for orks. Lets say da boyz charge the rhino, after getting shot up of course coming in. What are they going to do? Blow your rhino? woop-de-do-dah. You're T5 with a 3+ save AND FNP, you don't care! I bet you any mob of orks cares about getting triple flamethrower-ed (combiweapon on sarge ). Depending on whats going on around the rest of the battlefield, the rest of the plague marines either boltpistol and charge, or just rapidfire them into the dirt. Lets say you do end up in a bit of a brawl with da boyz- this is where you're khornate marines/claw terminators come into play. Commonly referred to as "the hammer and anvil", your plague marines are your anvil-hard, can take big blows. Da boyz are the hot steel resting on the anvil, ready to be belted into the shape you want. And the hammer is the bezerkers/khorne claw terminators. They will belt your hot steel into the shape of your choice- which is always a highly mangled, broken and shattered piece of steel!

Honestly I could keep writing all morning but I just finished breakfast and I'm off to the gym but I'd suggest OP lurking around reading chaos army lists/batreps/threads, or just general strategy threads. I would recommend this thread to get you think about how transports can be used for shenanigans, This thread for some good tips for playing the game, and this thread for synergy, something that is needed both in the game and when list writing.

The last thing I'll mention is that you should remember you always have a right to look at your opponents list, and their codex, and their rules- and yours. Last time I checked (was a while ago and my CSM codex is at a friends house) your lesser daemons MUST have an icon to deepstrike, and you have not listed an Icon in your list. Also, IIRC about the rules for lesser daemons, they CAN assault when they arrive. And they must arrive via an Icon. Also reading a unit codex entry when you encounter it is a great way to understand your enemy- and I believe many many many a military mind has had something to say about knowing your enemy, and they have been saying it for a very very very long time

To be fair, though, plague marines really aren't the best here. With FNP, they are as tough to kill as terminators, but boy mobz are already good enough against terminators with sheer volume of attacks. Plus, the hidden klaw is a pain and a half.

More importantly, if you don't get the charge in against the boyz, the mob and the plague marines strike simultaneously, which is a death call for plague marines.

When you run the numbers, the best way to win against boyz is to kill them faster, not survive against them longer. The meager killing power of plague marines just isn't enough to make their increase in survivability sufficient.

There is a way to make nurgle competitive against boyz. It's called Rot. If nurgle is the way the OP wants to go, perhaps its time to break out a couple of sorcerers...

Ailaros wrote:To be fair, though, plague marines really aren't the best here. With FNP, they are as tough to kill as terminators, but boy mobz are already good enough against terminators with sheer volume of attacks. Plus, the hidden klaw is a pain and a half.

More importantly, if you don't get the charge in against the boyz, the mob and the plague marines strike simultaneously, which is a death call for plague marines.

When you run the numbers, the best way to win against boyz is to kill them faster, not survive against them longer. The meager killing power of plague marines just isn't enough to make their increase in survivability sufficient.

There is a way to make nurgle competitive against boyz. It's called Rot. If nurgle is the way the OP wants to go, perhaps its time to break out a couple of sorcerers...

Yeah you do that.

My plague-O's don't have too much trouble with the boyz though. If we are going to throw X unit at Y unit, then yeah da boyz are one of the best troops. I've never fought a mob of 30. I've seen them on the field, but I ain't fought one of them yet. Mobs of 10-20, yes, but never above that. And those twenty mobs tend to be spread out to avoid blasts and templates, so I've never taken on 20 boyz at once because they didn't get into range. The one time they WERE grouped up... well... didn't work so good.


Yeah the hidden powerklaw is a pain. Against trukk mobs, thats usually the ONLY pain. And big mobs are either unwieldy or asking for a smashing. So yeah, good tradesman? 'E don't blame 'is tools.

The last thing I'll mention is that you should remember you always have a right to look at your opponents list, and their codex, and their rules- and yours. Last time I checked (was a while ago and my CSM codex is at a friends house) your lesser daemons MUST have an icon to deepstrike, and you have not listed an Icon in your list. Also, IIRC about the rules for lesser daemons, they CAN assault when they arrive. And they must arrive via an Icon. Also reading a unit codex entry when you encounter it is a great way to understand your enemy- and I believe many many many a military mind has had something to say about knowing your enemy, and they have been saying it for a very very very long time

I thought Chaos Marks counted as icons? and interesting, is that a daemon only rule? Cause the rulebook said no moving/assaulting when we read it.

To be fair, though, plague marines really aren't the best here. With FNP, they are as tough to kill as terminators, but boy mobz are already good enough against terminators with sheer volume of attacks. Plus, the hidden klaw is a pain and a half.

More importantly, if you don't get the charge in against the boyz, the mob and the plague marines strike simultaneously, which is a death call for plague marines.

When you run the numbers, the best way to win against boyz is to kill them faster, not survive against them longer. The meager killing power of plague marines just isn't enough to make their increase in survivability sufficient.

There is a way to make nurgle competitive against boyz. It's called Rot. If nurgle is the way the OP wants to go, perhaps its time to break out a couple of sorcerers...

Agreed, the other gameas I was always giving my prince MoN and nurgles rot.. i loved seeming that many boyz die to a single spell, a spell that can also be used in CC :drools:.

To be honest i find after orkz charge they suffer greatly if locked in combat with plague marines. Boyz have 3S vs 5T is 6's to wound and i often save those.. indeed the powerklaw usually drops 2 plague marines a turn.

I think next game I will try squads of 10-20 CSM with a mark of khorne, armed with 2 flamers.. and possibly lash them within perfect flamer range. The reason I thought of 20 CSM is because large numbers vs orkz, and since Mark doesnt go up or down with squad sizes I would be making the most of my points. 20 CSM with a Mark of Khorne.. 3 attacks each.. and likely atleast 1 phase of shooting, and a 2nd phase of rapidfire/2flamers.. I can let the orkz charge me if i want and still hit first with nearly 60 attacks. If all goes well I was thinking of having a 5 man chosen squad with flamers sitting there as well to help flame them at the same time.

decoste007xt wrote:

Jihallah wrote:The last thing I'll mention is that you should remember you always have a right to look at your opponents list, and their codex, and their rules- and yours. Last time I checked (was a while ago and my CSM codex is at a friends house) your lesser daemons MUST have an icon to deepstrike, and you have not listed an Icon in your list. Also, IIRC about the rules for lesser daemons, they CAN assault when they arrive. And they must arrive via an Icon. Also reading a unit codex entry when you encounter it is a great way to understand your enemy- and I believe many many many a military mind has had something to say about knowing your enemy, and they have been saying it for a very very very long time

I thought Chaos Marks counted as icons? and interesting, is that a daemon only rule? Cause the rulebook said no moving/assaulting when we read it.

That is a LESSER daemon rule, IIRC. Read your codex! The rules for lesser daemons are in the lesser daemons entry! You can't assault when you deepstrike, but the rules in my codex says I can. Your codex tells you all about deploying lesser daemons and greater daemons requiring a sacrificial champ, read it! And a chaos mark is just a mark of one of the gods. The Icons give everyone in the unit a mark. Got that? an Icon GIVES you a mark. Is a mark an icon?

Sorry its just a question. I've read my codex, and the rulebook.. theres a lot of information in both of them i dont expect myself to retain it all this fast.

The codex does state i may assault after deepstriking, but it also says Squad Icons are treated as personal icons with additional effects.

" These icons are available to squads, and each has an additional effect ontop of the one described in Icons and Deepstrike. "

decoste007xt wrote:Sorry its just a question. I've read my codex, and the rulebook.. theres a lot of information in both of them i dont expect myself to retain it all this fast.

thats what I mean though- Keep them at hand! The best way to learn the rules and codex info etc is to have them at hand, and read them as you encounter them. As in when an assault phase starts, go to the assault phase part of the rule book, and go through it step by step. 5 games later and you'll have it down pat. Not trying to have a go, more like tough love. Keep that book at hand ! And don't be afraid to read the entry for an opponents unit in THEIR codex- they might have it right in their head. They might not, and you might feel cheated! In fact, most cases of dodgy player shenanigans seem to be where one new player doesn't know his opponents army, so they make stuff up! If you encounter an enemy unit, read their stats- quickest way to learn

decoste007xt wrote:

So i took terminators to combat his terminators

you know how they say fight fire with fire? in 40k that translates to shoot the shooty ones, chop the choppy ones. Choosing terminators to fight other terminators would be your first mistake. Choosing terminators in a game against a team with orks is your second mistake. You seem to believe you can guarantee your terminators to fight the other team's terminators? In such a case, what would you do if you find yourself facing a large mob of boyz? Terminators are great for a strong low model count unit, but a 2+ armor save (even a 3+ invul)...just read my signature

all i'm saying is, i've honestly played enough terminators to understand that if i were to ever play an MEQ army, i wouldn't waste the points if i'm up against a green tide

Well you learn from every game, and like i posted origionally I've never used them in a game, i wanted to find out how they'd react.

I figured 8 terminators with 4A lightning claws or 5 on a charge would kill atleast 15 boys, cutting him in half.. either way they attack first. Terminators were with the Demon Prince as well.. and the terminators had 2 combi flamers, and 1 heavy flamer.

Next time its going to be mass numbers as suggested. I can plop down an army list that im building now, tell me if it sounds alright.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prince, MoN, Rot 145pts

x5 Chosen w/ 5 flamers, 125pts

x10 CSM, 2 flamers, Chaos Glory, Rhino w/ combi flamer, 215pts

x10 CSM, 2 flamers, Chaos Glory, Rhino w/ combi flamer, 215pts

Defiler, 1CCW, 1 heavy flamer 150pts

Havocs,x5 x4 missle launchersm 155pts

1005pts

Thinking of dropping the Chosen and a combi flamer for x5 havocs w/ 4 heavy bolters.




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I actually really want to do rhino castling.. but even on the list i posted.. I have 1 rhino and would have to acquire 2-3 more to make that sort of thing effective. To ebay i go!

also, flamers aren't necessarily the best against boyz. With their fleet on the WAAAUGH! you're probably not going to get to use flamers until after the first fight they win. After that point, they're probably not likely to be all that much of a threat. That and what happens when they win combat on your turn?

CSM arn't fearless so I'm not taking extra wounds, the mark insures i can reroll leadership, if i dont lose by that much that is. Maybe instead of flamers a heavy bolter? gives me more shots and with da boyz I just let them come to me? hammering down as many shots as i can?

Indeed WAAGH has screwed me over many times, I'm amazed how fast an Ork can move across the field, and my buddy usually rolls 5+'s on his run rolls. Or maybe the prince should have lash to help position them for a good flame.. but thats losing nurgles rot which has always done well.

I play orks and I always slaughter the CSM player in our group, he just can't deal with my numbers. Take templates/multi shot weapons, and make sure that YOU control the charge.

It's the biggest thing vs orks, and a lot of people don't seem to realize it. If you charge them, orks really aren't as good in CC. Take templates, use rhinos to stay mobile and control the charge, and you should do ok

I play CSM myself and lose to my friend's orks pretty often, not because of the number of orks, but because of the klaws. Nobs with power klaws just tear everything apart and theres nothing to stop them. Of course i can take fists against them but i always pay the extra point price with marines, because of the armour save (which i dont rly need against klaws). So ork pretty much win eveery close combat.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread (because youve written alot ) so i dont know if you talked about klaws alrdy.

Huge mass of orks is easier to win with chaos, just get blast weapons and berzerkers.

I advocate the khorne spammage approach - throwing Bezerkers at Ork boyz is great. I agree with the use of psyker tricks, I started running a Sorcerer with lash and some full bolter squads with heavy bolter and flamer, that 'lil combo can really screw up ork squads.

Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt of Change, Wind of chaos

Sorcerer, MoN, Nurgles Rot


x2 245 pts, 10 khorne berzerkers, rhino

x1 Havocs, 4 autocannons

205pts worth of prince im thinking thats too high. I gave him MoT, bolt of change and wind of chaos. The idea being is 1on1 my friend likes to take KillerKan walls, and daemon princes can fire their ranged weapons twice (bolt of change) as a Tzneetchian Psyker. Then wind of chaos twice when i get close enough to get glancing hits, and kill some orkz.

Sorcerer is what i was going to do with the Daemon Prince, MoN and Nurgles rot... Should i drop that idea, bring in a squad of CSM instead, and give the prince MoN and Nurgles rot? i know he does roll 2d6's vs vehicles, and will hit the kanz first.

decoste007xt wrote:Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt of Change, Wind of chaos

Sorcerer, MoN, Nurgles Rot


x2 245 pts, 10 khorne berzerkers, rhino

x1 Havocs, 4 autocannons

205pts worth of prince im thinking thats too high. I gave him MoT, bolt of change and wind of chaos. The idea being is 1on1 my friend likes to take KillerKan walls, and daemon princes can fire their ranged weapons twice (bolt of change) as a Tzneetchian Psyker. Then wind of chaos twice when i get close enough to get glancing hits, and kill some orkz.

Sorcerer is what i was going to do with the Daemon Prince, MoN and Nurgles rot... Should i drop that idea, bring in a squad of CSM instead, and give the prince MoN and Nurgles rot? i know he does roll 2d6's vs vehicles, and will hit the kanz first.

Your MC's can fire up to two weapons (not the same one twice) a turn at the same target. Bolt counts as a single weapon, so you can't double bolt unfortunately. It would be great if you could

If you want a DP to take on the kans, just go spartan prince. Wings, warptime. Cheaper than your current prince and beats down kans hard, especially when you fluff your hit rolls also will usually tear up 4 boyz a turn in CC- not the best on his own vs a mob, but throw a DP and a unit of X marines (your choice), and you'll lay some beatdown on da boyz.

With your 'zerkers in a rhino, I'll point out that ye cannot charge from the rhino, unless the rhino hasn't moved yet. So since you move 6" charge 6", and have a 2" bubble to deploy in, your target will be 14" or less away from you. So your rhino's probably gonna get charged by da boyz. Now as much as flamerthrowers are "bad" against orks, they seem to work, hmmm, "fantastically" for me in this situation, where the orks are forced to narrow down their coherency in the charge, and a) your rhino blows, you might lose a marine or two, and then you flame thrower and rapid fire da boyz into the dirt. or b) they fluff the rolls on the PK and you get to use your rhino like a bunker, flaming da boyz from the top hatch. Standing on foot waiting for the boyz to get close so you can flame them?... good tradesman, 'e don't blame 'is tools.

And I prefer 2Autocannons and 2 Missile launchers for my Havocs. I like ze blasts and krak missiles, I find they work well with the AC's

Thanks! If i can get my hands on some rhinos i want to sub in zerkers for flamer CSM's or CSM flamers w/ the mark of khorne.

So badly I'd like to park up and load out with my units walling off the boys or castling.. it just sounds fantastic to try!

As for a spartan prince, i like the idea. I suppose 135 pts to slaughter 120pts of kanz is nice, he may be fielding 6 instead so that'd be 270pts... I just gotta back the prince up for sure.

Dean889 wrote:I play orks and I always slaughter the CSM player in our group, he just can't deal with my numbers. Take templates/multi shot weapons, and make sure that YOU control the charge.

It's the biggest thing vs orks, and a lot of people don't seem to realize it. If you charge them, orks really aren't as good in CC. Take templates, use rhinos to stay mobile and control the charge, and you should do ok

check the tactics forum, i've already posted the mathhammer of MEQ's best chances of fighting a 30 squad of boyz. Regardless of weapon combination, using statistic odds of dice rolls (since everyone's dice rolls always suck) the ork squad will win in CC regardless of who charged. Of course if orks get the charge, its over that much faster.

schan122 wrote:

Dean889 wrote:I play orks and I always slaughter the CSM player in our group, he just can't deal with my numbers. Take templates/multi shot weapons, and make sure that YOU control the charge.

It's the biggest thing vs orks, and a lot of people don't seem to realize it. If you charge them, orks really aren't as good in CC. Take templates, use rhinos to stay mobile and control the charge, and you should do ok

check the tactics forum, i've already posted the mathhammer of MEQ's best chances of fighting a 30 squad of boyz. Regardless of weapon combination, using statistic odds of dice rolls (since everyone's dice rolls always suck) the ork squad will win in CC regardless of who charged. Of course if orks get the charge, its over that much faster.

CSM have an extra CC attack (2 CC weapons) and have polt pistols, so they can shoot before they charge too. Did you account for that? (I havn't actually mathhammered it so I may be completely wrong, but it was just a thought)

I was very surprised at how my plague marines owned a 30-boys mob, especially since they were charged. Granted, I positioned them well betwen craters and made sure not all 30 could attack, but between being denied the extra attack (blight grenades), needing 5+ to wound and FNP, the PK nob was the only one killing a marine a turn.

The second turn was even more impressive, at their S dropped to 3 without FC and the 6 remaining plagues were killing about 6 boys a turn compared to the one they lost. Sadly the game ended (we ran out of time) before the melee concluded, but they definitely did well and my Nurgle Prince was getting close to join the combat in the next turn...

How many plague marines ?

I'll bet 7.

Again, I haven't seen a 30 mob charge anything with every single boy getting a swing. So theoryhammer is entertaining and all, but it is still theoryhammer.

your doin it wrong, best anti horde weapons that chaos has, noise weapons and the havok launcher, combine those two and you have anti everything firepower for dealing with hordes, throw in a defiler and lash prince to a (defiler) cope with nasty stuff like orc walkers or just to throw some weight around or b(lash price) to keep that nasty horde away from you, there is also something to be said about lash sorc with familiar, 2 lash / turn can keep most hordes away quite happily, and if they get too close you can bunch them up nicely for your hidden doom sirens

Tyranic Marta wrote:your doin it wrong, best anti horde weapons that chaos has, noise weapons and the havok launcher, combine those two and you have anti everything firepower for dealing with hordes, throw in a defiler and lash prince to a (defiler) cope with nasty stuff like orc walkers or just to throw some weight around or b(lash price) to keep that nasty horde away from you, there is also something to be said about lash sorc with familiar, 2 lash / turn can keep most hordes away quite happily, and if they get too close you can bunch them up nicely for your hidden doom sirens

ok 1) don't parrot me chump 2) havok launchers are great, but come at a price, and chaos is a low model count army. Some folk might not want to pay for a weapon on a vehicle that is probably going to die like a rhino, especially when you can mount a combiweapon. Most people prefer not to put them on LR's because they are assault boats before gunboats, esp. due to a lack of PotMS, although they do add some whoomp onto a dakka pred, if that's your flavour. But are those havocs going to clean up 30 boyz quicker than say a havoc squad or a chosen squad with 4 flamers if you hit them with it? I find in one situation I'm chipping away at da boyz, the other I'm telling them to gtfo off my board- which I'd prefer to do. 3) defiler vs da kans, I'd like to see the mathhammer on da kans w/ rokkits vs the reaper/battle cannon fired once a turn, especially comparing the cost to effectiveness. Yeah the defiler will do some damage in CC, but the kans have a good chance of bopping the defiler, especially if it fluffs its rolls and is looking down at 6 DCCW attacks back- if it makes it past the rokkit hail. 4) You can't lash twice a turn with the same model. Psykers can use ONE power per turn, the exception is something that has a rule that allows you to use TWO per turn. like a MoT! A familiar allows you to HAVE one more psychic power than normal. English, do ye read it?

*sigh* refer to my statement on the biker thread about personal attacks

i cant be bothered arguing my point
have fun