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The Geneseed wouldnt take to an ogryn in all likelyhood plus the time and effort not to mention the expendature of resources it would cost to outfit an astartes the size of an Ogryn would make it completely unviable. A suit of regular power armour is anm incredibly valuable piece of kit the reason the IG arent equipped with them is because of its value it isnt wasted on cannon fodder an ogryn isnt skilled or intelligent enough to be an astartes.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:The Geneseed wouldnt take to an ogryn in all likelyhood plus the time and effort not to mention the expendature of resources it would cost to outfit an astartes the size of an Ogryn would make it completely unviable. A suit of regular power armour is anm incredibly valuable piece of kit the reason the IG arent equipped with them is because of its value it isnt wasted on cannon fodder an ogryn isnt skilled or intelligent enough to be an astartes.

While yes the geneseed wouldn't take to an Ogryn, the sheer fact that an Astartes must be Human counts them out anyway.
The fact that Power Armour is expensive isnt the reason the IG arent equipped with it. They dont have the ability or training to use it, and are by no means big enough to fit into it (if nothing else).

terranarc wrote:To say that no loyalist chapters would use ogryns would be ignorantly arrogant imo .......... slowed.

Apart from the fact that it would go against all fluff and precident ever released before by GW (so it is not ignorant to believe so) and how is it arrogant?

It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Also using derogatory words in a post doesn't help your arguement, especially when you are the kettle calling the pot black.

BluntmanDC wrote:It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Remind me again how that's a change from their current status as hulking, hideously mutated, tactically challenged killing machines?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Remind me again how that's a change from their current status as hulking, hideously mutated, tactically challenged killing machines?

How exactly are they tactically challenged? Or hideously mutated?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Remind me again how that's a change from their current status as hulking, hideously mutated, tactically challenged killing machines?

Can you provide a piece of GW fluff or artwork that supports your view point

To call the SM "tactically challenged" is a bit of a stretch. The reason a handful of Space Marines can pacify an entire world is because of their tactical mastery. They strike when, where and how it will cause the most devastation to enemy forces, be that in terms of military capability, casualties or morale.

The Codex Astartes is a book of tactical doctrine, offering the insights of a thousand years of battle (perhaps more in the modern era of 40k, I do not know if it is ever "updated") for every situation a Space Marine might find himself in.

Now, in the table-top game, yes, a lot of people play them using Napoleonic tactics, which is dumb, but this is the fault of the player, not the concept of the Space Marines.

Guys relax, you're being trolled.

Oh god.. Ogyrn TERMINATORS?!

I for one bow to our new S 5 T 5 W 3 A 3 Sv 2+/5++ and S 10 power fist overlords!

Seriously, that is an assault unit the IG may wish to invest in, very little I can concieve that wouldn't be stream rolled by a squad of these.

Except maybe a rubiks cube.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Oh god.. Ogyrn TERMINATORS?!

I for one bow to our new S 5 T 5 W 3 A 3 Sv 2+/5++ and S 10 power fist overlords!

Seriously, that is an assault unit the IG may wish to invest in, very little I can concieve that wouldn't be stream rolled by a squad of these.

Except maybe a rubiks cube.

their points value would be so insane that they would pretty much be a waste. now if they could deepstrike....hmmm

SilverMK2 wrote:

Mechanized Space Corps wrote:Girlie space marines =/= sisters of battle.

Fixed that for you

Sisters are in no way modified and are not integrated into their power armour to the extent that SM are.

then why do thay have T4 armor 3+

dagsta2 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Mechanized Space Corps wrote:Girlie space marines =/= sisters of battle.

Fixed that for you

Sisters are in no way modified and are not integrated into their power armour to the extent that SM are.

then why do thay have T4 armor 3+

IIRC They have T3 though i may be wrong-it has been a whilse since i read the WH codex, the 3+ is from the fact they wear power armour... that bit is pretty damn obvious actually.

The gene-seed wouldn't have it. They'd probably be incompatible. Plus they wouldn't fit in the rhinos.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Remind me again how that's a change from their current status as hulking, hideously mutated, tactically challenged killing machines?

How exactly are they tactically challenged? Or hideously mutated?

Hollywood Tactics, and, straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them, they drool acid, and get bleached an unnatural shade of "pasty" when not in direct sunlight, at which point they run the gambit of "grey" and "pitch black", until they step into the shade again, to name a few.

Psienesis wrote:To call the SM "tactically challenged" is a bit of a stretch. The reason a handful of Space Marines can pacify an entire world is because of their tactical mastery. They strike when, where and how it will cause the most devastation to enemy forces, be that in terms of military capability, casualties or morale.

It's more that they piggyback on the military achievements of tens of thousands of Guardsmen, while striking enough dramatic poses that onlookers proclaim "Thank the Emperor those five marines won the war for those hundred thousand Guardsmen and their hundreds of main battle tanks and artillery pieces!"

The Codex Astartes is a book of tactical doctrine, offering the insights of a thousand years of battle (perhaps more in the modern era of 40k, I do not know if it is ever "updated") for every situation a Space Marine might find himself in.

It was written by Guilliman, after a couple of centuries of largely sitting on the sidelines and not doing anything, and who had the explicit motive of rendering the Space Marines toothless so they couldn't turn on the Imperium again...

dagsta2 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Mechanized Space Corps wrote:Girlie space marines =/= sisters of battle.

Fixed that for you

Sisters are in no way modified and are not integrated into their power armour to the extent that SM are.

then why do thay have T4 armor 3+

Because they don't.

Sisters are T3 S3.

Fluff wise, they're regular human females in a mark of power armour that doesn't require a black carapace interface, like Space marines use. They aren't genetically alterered like Space Marines. They're not female Space Marines.

Power armour is used by other humans in the Imperium, other than Space Marines. The Sisters, Inquisitors, even a wealthy rogue trader could get his hands on power armour if he wanted to. It would not be the same as the power armour the Space Marines use, but it's power armour. And wearing it does not make them Space Marines.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Remind me again how that's a change from their current status as hulking, hideously mutated, tactically challenged killing machines?

How exactly are they tactically challenged? Or hideously mutated?

Hollywood Tactics, and,

And? It was a nice read, but where is your evidence of anything like this being done by Marines?

straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them,

Thats not mutated, thats enhanced. And just because their skeleton is of grotesque proportions doesnt mean they are mutated.

they drool acid,

Some (not all) Marines can spit acid yes, whats your point? It is not a mutation (ironically enough, for a SM, NOT being able to spit acid is a mutation).

and get bleached an unnatural shade of "pasty" when not in direct sunlight, at which point they run the gambit of "grey" and "pitch black", until they step into the shade again, to name a few.

This i've never heard of at all (if im even sure what youre talking about).

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:It would also be a terrible move for GW if they released ogryn space marines, lets face it making their poster boys into nothing more than brainless, claustrophobic killing machines is a pretty terrible PR move.

Remind me again how that's a change from their current status as hulking, hideously mutated, tactically challenged killing machines?

How exactly are they tactically challenged? Or hideously mutated?

Hollywood Tactics, and,

And? It was a nice read, but where is your evidence of anything like this being done by Marines?

Aw, someone removed the quote from an old SM codex... It amounted to something about their long history of futile last stands and suicidal charges, "most of which were wholly unnecessary".

straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them,

Thats not mutated, thats enhanced. And just because their skeleton is of grotesque proportions doesnt mean they are mutated.

they drool acid,

Some (not all) Marines can spit acid yes, whats your point? It is not a mutation (ironically enough, for a SM, NOT being able to spit acid is a mutation).

Everything done to Space Marines is a mutation. The only point of contention would be whether or not said mutations are hideous or not, and I think "misshapen, pasty, acid-drooling, giant cannibal" puts them pretty far beyond the line.

and get bleached an unnatural shade of "pasty" when not in direct sunlight, at which point they run the gambit of "grey" and "pitch black", until they step into the shade again, to name a few.

This i've never heard of at all (if im even sure what youre talking about).

They have rapidly photochromic skin. That's the bit that's broken for the Salamanders, so they're always stuck in the "in direct sunlight" mode.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:The Geneseed wouldnt take to an ogryn in all likelyhood plus the time and effort not to mention the expendature of resources it would cost to outfit an astartes the size of an Ogryn would make it completely unviable. A suit of regular power armour is anm incredibly valuable piece of kit the reason the IG arent equipped with them is because of its value it isnt wasted on cannon fodder an ogryn isnt skilled or intelligent enough to be an astartes.

While yes the geneseed wouldn't take to an Ogryn, the sheer fact that an Astartes must be Human counts them out anyway.
The fact that Power Armour is expensive isnt the reason the IG arent equipped with it. They dont have the ability or training to use it, and are by no means big enough to fit into it (if nothing else).

Well your wrong in the size aspect as many mortals have had suits of power armour made for them over the millenia, saint sabbat, the sisters of battle, various warmasters or inquisitors. However I stand by my argument thats its value is the main reason it isnt supplied to the guard, If it was mearly a matter of training there would be some elite guard units in power armour or perhaps they would give it to stormtroopers. Power armour is made from many rare materials is made up of incredibly complex life support, strength enhancing and sensory systems as well as occular tactical overlay etc etc it probably cannot be manufactured in large quantities. Do you want to tell Gabriel Seth that you cant send him and his barely controlled chapter any power armour this year cos your outfitting Ogryns? I dont!

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:The Geneseed wouldnt take to an ogryn in all likelyhood plus the time and effort not to mention the expendature of resources it would cost to outfit an astartes the size of an Ogryn would make it completely unviable. A suit of regular power armour is anm incredibly valuable piece of kit the reason the IG arent equipped with them is because of its value it isnt wasted on cannon fodder an ogryn isnt skilled or intelligent enough to be an astartes.

While yes the geneseed wouldn't take to an Ogryn, the sheer fact that an Astartes must be Human counts them out anyway.
The fact that Power Armour is expensive isnt the reason the IG arent equipped with it. They dont have the ability or training to use it, and are by no means big enough to fit into it (if nothing else).

Well your wrong in the size aspect as many mortals have had suits of power armour made for them over the millenia, saint sabbat, the sisters of battle, various warmasters or inquisitors. However I stand by my argument thats its value is the main reason it isnt supplied to the guard, If it was mearly a matter of training there would be some elite guard units in power armour or perhaps they would give it to stormtroopers. Power armour is made from many rare materials is made up of incredibly complex life support, strength enhancing and sensory systems as well as occular tactical overlay etc etc it probably cannot be manufactured in large quantities. Do you want to tell Gabriel Seth that you cant send him and his barely controlled chapter any power armour this year cos your outfitting Ogryns? I dont!

Yes, but those are custom made suits. And tbh, i think if anyone could afford them it would be Inquisitors and The Ecclesiarchy (who the SoB are the Militant arm of) in your argument.
However, i have always thought it was difficulty of manufacture rather than cost that was the issue.

Power Armour worn by Space Marines are highly advanced, difficult to mass produce, and require a lot of resources to maintain. Sisters of Battle Power Armour is a down graded version, more easily producible, but not as sophisticated.
Any power armor worn by Inquisitors are custom made, and even more difficult to mass produce than Astartes Power Armour.
It's basically down to the enhancements of the wearer, Space Marines being extensively enhanced (and not mutated) to allow them to use and interface with their suits through their Black Carapace. Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors lack anything of the sort.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Aw, someone removed the quote from an old SM codex... It amounted to something about their long history of futile last stands and suicidal charges, "most of which were wholly unnecessary".

OK, i still dont see where you are going with this. I have no problem with Last Stands being futile, or Suicidal Charges for that matter.
But since when have the majority of SM tactics been LS or SC?

They have rapidly photochromic skin. That's the bit that's broken for the Salamanders, so they're always stuck in the "in direct sunlight" mode.

Yes they do, but the majority of the time the will be fully enclosed in their Power Armour (unlike the models, only the most stupid of soldiers uncovers their head if they have a helmet).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them,

Thats not mutated, thats enhanced. And just because their skeleton is of grotesque proportions doesnt mean they are mutated.

they drool acid,

Some (not all) Marines can spit acid yes, whats your point? It is not a mutation (ironically enough, for a SM, NOT being able to spit acid is a mutation).

Everything done to Space Marines is a mutation. The only point of contention would be whether or not said mutations are hideous or not, and I think "misshapen, pasty, acid-drooling, giant cannibal" puts them pretty far beyond the line.

Actually, everything done to a SM is a controlled, designed change to their DNA (which means it is not a mutation since those are random).
when have SMs been described as misshapen?
pasty ill give you, but thats the same for anyone who works in an all encompassing suit for hundreds of years.
again with the drool. It doesnt leak out you know, it is stored and then spat on command.
Cannibal? you mean the rite where SMs can gain information by ingesting the DNA of the enemy? They dont survive off human flesh, and as such cant be considered cannibals (although i am sure they could subsist off human flesh if necessary).

Correct, Space Marines and bio-engineered, not mutations. Mutations are random, uncontrollable changes in the genetic code of an organism, which then sometimes causes beneficial changes to an organism, but more often than not cripples it or kills it before birth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Genetic engineering is a process of artificially swapping and changing the base code to improve the base organism, like genetic engineering crops to resist disease. Genetic engineering falls under bio-engineering, but they aren't the same when applied to Space Marines.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Aw, someone removed the quote from an old SM codex... It amounted to something about their long history of futile last stands and suicidal charges, "most of which were wholly unnecessary".

straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them,

Thats not mutated, thats enhanced. And just because their skeleton is of grotesque proportions doesnt mean they are mutated.

they drool acid,

Some (not all) Marines can spit acid yes, whats your point? It is not a mutation (ironically enough, for a SM, NOT being able to spit acid is a mutation).

Everything done to Space Marines is a mutation. The only point of contention would be whether or not said mutations are hideous or not, and I think "misshapen, pasty, acid-drooling, giant cannibal" puts them pretty far beyond the line.

Mutation is defined as sudden and spontaneous changes in the cell, the space marine creation process is not mutation.

Space marines are not 'grotesque' in proportions, as all their physical attributes increase they have nearly the same proportions to a normal human (they are not like humans with giantism, who are abnormally proportioned). The skeleton is not warped, the bones increases in size and length, that is in no way applicable to the verb to warp.

Space marines organs are not superfluous, they each have a defined use that allows them to function at peak performance in the role they do (it would be like you saying 'having fingers is superfluous')

Space marines do not drool acid, they can produce an acid solution, in the same way as humans produce saliva (you may know from you own life that humans do not continuously produce vast amounts of saliva that has to flow out of a person's mouth non stop).

Cannibalism isn't actually bad in the way that space marines do it, it actually has positive effects. Cannabalism is only a taboo in humanity due to the nature of empathy for others and the risk of disease transferance (which would all be removed by cooking and avoiding the brain).

BluntmanDC wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Aw, someone removed the quote from an old SM codex... It amounted to something about their long history of futile last stands and suicidal charges, "most of which were wholly unnecessary".

straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them,

Thats not mutated, thats enhanced. And just because their skeleton is of grotesque proportions doesnt mean they are mutated.

they drool acid,

Some (not all) Marines can spit acid yes, whats your point? It is not a mutation (ironically enough, for a SM, NOT being able to spit acid is a mutation).

Everything done to Space Marines is a mutation. The only point of contention would be whether or not said mutations are hideous or not, and I think "misshapen, pasty, acid-drooling, giant cannibal" puts them pretty far beyond the line.

Mutation is defined as sudden and spontaneous changes in the cell, the space marine creation process is not mutation.

Space marines are not 'grotesque' in proportions, as all their physical attributes increase they have nearly the same proportions to a normal human (they are not like humans with giantism, who are abnormally proportioned). The skeleton is not warped, the bones increases in size and length, that is in no way applicable to the verb to warp.

Space marines organs are not superfluous, they each have a defined use that allows them to function at peak performance in the role they do (it would be like you saying 'having fingers is superfluous')

Space marines do not drool acid, they can produce an acid solution, in the same way as humans produce saliva (you may know from you own life that humans do not continuously produce vast amounts of saliva that has to flow out of a person's mouth non stop).

Cannibalism isn't actually bad in the way that space marines do it, it actually has positive effects. Cannabalism is only a taboo in humanity due to the nature of empathy for others and the risk of disease transferance (which would all be removed by cooking and avoiding the brain).

This is the answer i would have given had i not had an exam this morning
Thanks Bluntman

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Hollywood Tactics, and, straight from their background, their entire skeletal structure is warped to grotesque proportions, dozens of superfluous organs are jammed into them, they drool acid, and get bleached an unnatural shade of "pasty" when not in direct sunlight, at which point they run the gambit of "grey" and "pitch black", until they step into the shade again, to name a few.

Others are addressing this.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It's more that they piggyback on the military achievements of tens of thousands of Guardsmen, while striking enough dramatic poses that onlookers proclaim "Thank the Emperor those five marines won the war for those hundred thousand Guardsmen and their hundreds of main battle tanks and artillery pieces!"

Its actually the other way around. Space Marines use their superior maneuverability and striking strength to eliminate enemy command structures and destabilize entire armies. They then leave for the next battlefield and allow the Guard to eradicate or pacify the scattered and discouraged forces that remain.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It was written by Guilliman, after a couple of centuries of largely sitting on the sidelines and not doing anything, and who had the explicit motive of rendering the Space Marines toothless so they couldn't turn on the Imperium again...

Cool story, but the Ultramarines' "worlds-conquered" tally during the Horus Heresy surpassed even the Lunar Wolves because Guilliman was such a masterful tactician and administrator (Second Edition's Codex: Ultramarines says this directly). The threat of the Space Marines was removed by breaking the Legions down into Chapters, not by encouraging them to adhere to the codex and making them "weaker". To paraphrase The Emperor's Champion from the B&C, the Codex Astartes prevents Chapters from pigeon-holing themselves into one area of expertise and making them inflexible.

Ultramarines 2nd ed, if this even exists in the form I percieve it to be, is vastly outdated by current fluff, which states The Luna Wolves conquered the most out of all the Legions.

The Codex however, is exactly as you said, a very useful guideline book used primarily to set out the Chapters are organized. It is adhered to by the vast majority.

iproxtaco wrote:Ultramarines 2nd ed, if this even exists.

The second edition space marines codex was indeed Ultramarines, as they have been the figure head of space marines and GW since 2nd editions.