Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I've played for 14 years now. Have had nothing of this "oversaturation of Marines".

I've faced exactly six Marine players in my area over that 14 years.

There's no truth to this idiotic rumor of "oversaturation". It's simply overblown, because more often than not everyone has at least one Marine force that they can bring out.

Try changing up missions, try playing campaigns from the ground up, et al. Just do something that encourages people to work on something other than Marines and you will see a drop in Marine players, I can almost 100% guarantee it.

Having played in multiple metro areas in severals states, it was the rare store where Space Marines were only a plurality. Almost everywhere I've played SM's have been the majority of armies present, or eventually became so. Just because your area may not be so (in which case I do envy you) doesn't many others aren't. Especially large tournaments, look at the Adepticon attendance records for 40k and you'll see what I mean.

That's the point I'm making Vak.

Tournaments will, of course, attract Marine armies. Marine armies do relatively well in tournament play with how forgiving they are.

If people actually step back and stop pushing tournaments so hard, it becomes an entirely different story.

A SM heavy population turns the game into a list building exercise rather than a test of strategy and wit.

The game is almost always a list building exercise....

I do believe that if you decided to play as Vanilla Marines because you read Starship Troops - and that's READ, not watched - then you've got an out.

Kanluwen wrote:That's the point I'm making Vak.

Tournaments will, of course, attract Marine armies. Marine armies do relatively well in tournament play with how forgiving they are.

If people actually step back and stop pushing tournaments so hard, it becomes an entirely different story.

Perhaps, it'd be cool to try but marines do everything well (or you can at least find a marine army that does something as well or almost as well as just about any other force and just switch over to that book), and as such it's hard to design things to encourage other armies to be played, and the basic pickup game most players want to engage in when they walk in is generally centered around playing the rulebook missions that most tournaments use that marines are generally good at.

Another issue is cost sadly, it often costs noticeably more to play an army other than Marines. I could have built my CSM's two and a half times over for what my 2nd IG army cost. That makes me a sad panda :( and discourages people from trying other armies.

infinite_array wrote:I do believe that if you decided to play as Vanilla Marines because you read Starship Troops - and that's READ, not watched - then you've got an out.

You should play Guard if you read it... not space marines

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That's the point I'm making Vak.

Tournaments will, of course, attract Marine armies. Marine armies do relatively well in tournament play with how forgiving they are.

If people actually step back and stop pushing tournaments so hard, it becomes an entirely different story.

Perhaps, it'd be cool to try but marines do everything well (or you can at least find a marine army that does something as well or almost as well as just about any other force and just switch over to that book), and as such it's hard to design things to encourage other armies to be played, and the basic pickup game most players want to engage in when they walk in is generally centered around playing the rulebook missions that most tournaments use that marines are generally good at.

I dunno about that. Something as simple as restrictions of 3+ save units taking up extra slots in organization for campaigns does a lot for it.

Melissia wrote:The game is almost always a list building exercise....

Yes and no. You can tailor your SM list more than other races. You typically have twice the resources at your disposal.

Slow down with the posts or I'll never get the 9828 posts to get caught up.

Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.

mcyeatman wrote:

Melissia wrote:The game is almost always a list building exercise....

Yes and no. You can tailor your SM list more than other races. You typically have twice the resources at your disposal.

Slow down with the posts or I'll never get the 9828 posts to get caught up.

I can tailor a Guard list to take on pretty much everything.

I could do that before this supposed 'overpowered' book.

It's nothing new. 40k has been a list building exercise for a long while.

Melissia wrote:Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.

Exactly!

Thanks for defending my position.

mcyeatman wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.

Exactly!

Thanks for defending my position.

Actually, she was invalidating it.

Tailoring your list isn't hard to do. Every codex is really able to do it to pretty much the same extent Marines can.

The only difference is simply that not every codex can then with no real work at all be turned into one of two of the other 'OP' codices.

mcyeatman wrote:Thanks for defending my position.

I didn't. Pay attention.

Kanluwen wrote:

mcyeatman wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not really? I can tailor my Guard to do any damned thing I want them to. Sure it's hard to do the same with my Sisters, but that's because they have (along with Necrons) the oldest codex in the game.

Exactly!

Thanks for defending my position.

Actually, she was invalidating it.

Tailoring your list isn't hard to do. Every codex is really able to do it to pretty much the same extent Marines can.

The only difference is simply that not every codex can then with no real work at all be turned into one of two of the other 'OP' codices.

This is the model count (roughly) for each army (excluding other SM chapters).

Chaos Daemons – 29
CSM – 34
GK – 19
Dark Eldar – 29
Eldar – 27
IG – 25
Necron -13
Orks – 29
SM – 41
Tau – 17
Nids – 31
WH - 21

SM = more listly.

lol, you really don't understand the armies very well...

C:IG has more variation than C:SM, in fact.

There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?

I think I get the 'list building exercise' argument. If not correct me.

I think the point was that (with majority playing SM), 40k has become an exercise of building lists to overcome enemies/situations as opposed to adapting strategy.

Basically you buy and build 2000pts worth of codex marines and you can field a list for every situation. Some armies with fewer resources can't change their lists all that much, and actually have to just fight more tactfully/strategically. Aka use more brain power.

Does that make any sense?

*edit* well feth me! No wonder I feel limited. My tau have less than half the model options SM have! LOL

Not really, because tailoring your list still means you have to know what you're facing beforehand.

I know I've embarrassed some people by bringing my Guard army instead of the Sisters army they tailored their lists to destroy

SickSix wrote:I think I get the 'list building exercise' argument. If not correct me.

I think the point was that (with majority playing SM), 40k has become an exercise of building lists to overcome enemies/situations as opposed to adapting strategy.

Basically you buy and build 2000pts worth of codex marines and you can field a list for every situation. Some armies with fewer resources can't change their lists all that much, and actually have to just fight more tactfully/strategically. Aka use more brain power.

Does that make any sense?

*edit* well feth me! No wonder I feel limited. My tau have less than half the model options SM have! LOL

+1

Better put than my attempt.

i just hate them because of they have a new codex every 3-5 ed mouth

Why do we "greatly dislike" SM?

Reason 1-
TO MANY
Where I play, %80 of the players play some form of SM

Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?

I don't think we can count those though since it is the same vehicle in the end.

NamTaey wrote:
Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!

lol

@Melissia If you read the actual novel by Robert Heinlein "Starship Troopers" ,not the novel of the movie, its Space Marine armor types right at the first and then flashbacks to training and such. The IG seemed way out of place in your comment on the novel.

purplefood wrote:

Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.

Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?

But that would only lead to "I hate the "Why I hate the "I hate why hate threads" thread within a matter of weeks. Nay, days even!

NamTaey wrote:Why do we "greatly dislike" SM?

Reason 1-
TO MANY
Where I play, %80 of the players play some form of SM

Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?

I don't think we can count those though since it is the same vehicle in the end.

I know of a great deal of people who would argue that all the seperate SM codeci are essentially the same codex with slightly different bits added on...

Blood Necrons arise! Cast off your Power Armour disguises and claim Baal as your Tombworld once more

Traitor Tau would be awesome. Wasn't there a traitor commander in the Tau codex? Chaos tau could be a lot of fun

I'd love a generic 'cultist' dex, with an assortment of equipment and the ability to loot vehicles from the other races

Ascalam wrote:Blood Necrons arise! Cast off your Power Armour disguises and claim Baal as your Tombworld once more

Traitor Tau would be awesome. Wasn't there a traitor commander in the Tau codex? Chaos tau could be a lot of fun

I'd love a generic 'cultist' dex, with an assortment of equipment and the ability to loot vehicles from the other races

There are no 'chaos' Tau. They have no presence in the warp. But I'm sure Matt Ward will change that for us. And we'll like it!

But yes, there is a renegade Tau commander. As in defied the ethereals and all that. But he's been long dead now. However I'm sure his renegade enclave still carries on his 'teachings'.

Shayden wrote:It seems I've hit a nerve...

Hardly
It is just that this crops up rather a lot more than any real hatred as mentioned above.

If people do really hate a fictional futuristic Space Knight represented by non true scale models the size o'my thumb then they are beyond responding reasonably.
So the thread will just get replies in the vein of, "Why the hate thread?" or a flame grill from the despisers.

Either way the best thing to do is use the search engine and read the plethora of identical posts if you really want to know.

Zakiriel wrote:@Melissia If you read the actual novel by Robert Heinlein "Starship Troopers" ,not the novel of the movie, its Space Marine armor types right at the first and then flashbacks to training and such. The IG seemed way out of place in your comment on the novel.

That's EXACTLY what I said!

infinite_array wrote:I do believe that if you decided to play as Vanilla Marines because you read Starship Troops - and that's READ, not watched - then you've got an out.

purplefood wrote:

NamTaey wrote:Why do we "greatly dislike" SM?

Reason 1-
TO MANY
Where I play, %80 of the players play some form of SM

Reason 2-
Way to many variants of the SM codex! You don't see Traitor Tau or Blood Necrons! I mean come on!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

There's what, seven Leman Russ variants?

I don't think we can count those though since it is the same vehicle in the end.

I know of a great deal of people who would argue that all the seperate SM codeci are essentially the same codex with slightly different bits added on...

I can see people saying that but it is a bit of a stretch. I mean why else would GW have a different section for Grey Knights on the website?
To tell you the truth, I'd be happy if they just combined all of the SM codeci in one codex. This codex would be called, the Space Marine Codex
There would be restrictions of course. Like you couldn't take Grey Knights with Mephiston, you would have to run a Grey Knight HQ.

I wouldn't be happy with that...
1 Codex straight away would be a bad low from the 6 codeci high. Better to gradually shed them instead and end up with 2/3 are maybe even 1 if they were done right.