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LoL. I haven't even looked in this forum for 2 years. After getting tired of the low quality of play/ painting/ conversion/ conversation in my local store, I returned to computer gaming, where you can always find a game, and the hygiene is better. The only space marine I'm interested in these days is the one being produced for a soon to be released 'SPACE MARINE" computer game (cheers). For my 40K hit these days, I got Dawn of War 2 Retribution for less than the price of one box of 'marine miniatures'. It also offers a hellof a lot more bang for the buck (X1000). I can get a co-op, campaign or competitive game any time of the day or night, and you don't have to make your own sound effects lol.

The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.

+1

Shayden wrote:Why? Everywhere I look people are hating on the Space Marines! I understand that they are very popular with newbies, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason. Are they just considered cheap? Is it because of Matt Ward? Help me out here!

Its a carefully hewn nexus between GW and marines players going Spass Marniez HURR!


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purplefood wrote:

Nerivant wrote:I've seen more "why the hate" than "hate" threads this week.

Ironic isn't it?
Can we make a "I hate why hate threads" thread?

Please do.

I don't hate Space Marines, but I do hate how their Dexes are so forgiving compared to even IG. Space Marines can take some brutal losses and still pull a pretty solid win. Other armies can afford one or maybe two turns going south then pretty much accept a downward spiral in a more competitive setting.


As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.

That would be worth it. Plenty of runway for good fluff and adjacent products.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.

That is a perfect contrast! The grimy, lower tech, humans versus the clean, sleek, ultra-tech alien race. It is the 'classical' sci-fi match-up! I would be all for that.

Orc Town Grot wrote:LoL. I haven't even looked in this forum for 2 years. After getting tired of the low quality of play/ painting/ conversion/ conversation in my local store, I returned to computer gaming, where you can always find a game, and the hygiene is better. The only space marine I'm interested in these days is the one being produced for a soon to be released 'SPACE MARINE" computer game (cheers). For my 40K hit these days, I got Dawn of War 2 Retribution for less than the price of one box of 'marine miniatures'. It also offers a hellof a lot more bang for the buck (X1000). I can get a co-op, campaign or competitive game any time of the day or night, and you don't have to make your own sound effects lol.

And nothing of value was lost.

Orc Town Grot wrote:LoL. I haven't even looked in this forum for 2 years. After getting tired of the low quality of play/ painting/ conversion/ conversation in my local store, I returned to computer gaming, where you can always find a game, and the hygiene is better. The only space marine I'm interested in these days is the one being produced for a soon to be released 'SPACE MARINE" computer game (cheers). For my 40K hit these days, I got Dawn of War 2 Retribution for less than the price of one box of 'marine miniatures'. It also offers a hellof a lot more bang for the buck (X1000). I can get a co-op, campaign or competitive game any time of the day or night, and you don't have to make your own sound effects lol.

this reminds me of those pweople who get on WoW and pronounce how much better thier lives have been since they quite WoW... that's great for them they probably played it to much and spent to much time on it neglecting other things in thier life, but hobbies can be good. also i would say everybody i play with has good hygene btu i cna imagine in some areas that might not be the case

SickSix wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.

That is a perfect contrast! The grimy, lower tech, humans versus the clean, sleek, ultra-tech alien race. It is the 'classical' sci-fi match-up! I would be all for that.

Even as a die-hard UM player, I'd be all for Tanith, Cadia, and the like being the new poster boys (an IG vs DE or CWE would be awesome)

I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.

GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.

Seaward wrote:I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.

GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.

And by the same token what's popular is so because it gets pushed and has constant support and is amongst the cheaper armies to build.

It was hard to play Dark Eldar for 5 years when it literally had 0 presence in stores. You didn't see it, you couldn't buy it. You had to get it all online. This was of course 7 years after being introduced and then getting absolutely no support thereafter.

If you don't support other lines, of course they aren't going to be popular or sell.

If you constantly update one product and introduce new things for it, of course it's going to be vastly more popular than products which get almost no marketing or development efforts in comparison.

Vaktathi wrote:

Seaward wrote:I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.

GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.

And by the same token what's popular is so because it gets pushed and has constant support and is amongst the cheaper armies to build.

It was hard to play Dark Eldar for 5 years when it literally had 0 presence in stores. You didn't see it, you couldn't buy it. You had to get it all online. This was of course 7 years after being introduced and then getting absolutely no support thereafter.

If you don't support other lines, of course they aren't going to be popular or sell.

If you constantly update one product and introduce new things for it, of course it's going to be vastly more popular than products which get almost no marketing or development efforts in comparison.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I promise you that GW's motive is to turn the largest profit possible. If they thought they could do that by releasing a codex for every Imperial Guard regiment, every Craftworld, every Hive Fleet, etc., then they would.

And thats the rub, I'm starting Red Scorpions, and yet now sad that I have to look forward to fighting nothing but other space marines D:

Seaward wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Seaward wrote:I'm amused that so many people think Space Marines are popular because GW pushes them in your face.

GW pushes them in your face because Space Marines are popular. You dance with the girl that brung ya. More importantly, you sell to the demand that exists, rather than supplying the demand that doesn't.

And by the same token what's popular is so because it gets pushed and has constant support and is amongst the cheaper armies to build.

It was hard to play Dark Eldar for 5 years when it literally had 0 presence in stores. You didn't see it, you couldn't buy it. You had to get it all online. This was of course 7 years after being introduced and then getting absolutely no support thereafter.

If you don't support other lines, of course they aren't going to be popular or sell.

If you constantly update one product and introduce new things for it, of course it's going to be vastly more popular than products which get almost no marketing or development efforts in comparison.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I promise you that GW's motive is to turn the largest profit possible. If they thought they could do that by releasing a codex for every Imperial Guard regiment, every Craftworld, every Hive Fleet, etc., then they would.

I'm not denying that SM's won't always be popular, but there is such a thing as oversupport and choking off other lines, and yes, GW as a business can and does make mistakes (like *borrowing* money to pay *dividends*...convienently doubling Mr. Kirby's yearly income).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Crippling or destroying two dozen strike cruisers, and cutting off all the guns of a battle barge, in addition to butchering in excess of 750 (500 active on the ground after suffering 50% casualties, less than a halfway point in the battle, and only some percent in excess of 50% of the survivors at the end managed to flee; so out of a thousand Marines, more than 75% were killed, all in the time it took the nearest neighboring noble houses (to differentiate from the ones they landed on top of) to realize something was going on) Marines in the span of a few minutes, is probably the most anyone is allowed to beat up on them. They are "everyone's" favorite little Mary-Sues, after all.

Yeah they beat up on them pretty good for several days, but let's face it... There's no way any marines should have escaped. Not with all their body parts still in their original places anyway. Which reminds me of the bit about the 'Eldar killing' Imperial Guard who disappeared one day. Shortly thereafter a bunch of headless, armless bodies were seen running around, bumbling down the streets of Commorragh... That story would only be made better if they had been SMs, but GW would never allow that.

Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?

Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command

Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.

And this is why I play Rogue Chaos Malal serving Sons of Malice on the side of my Necrons so I can beat up on any person who thinks Ultrasmurfs are the best.

Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?

Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command

Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.

I understood that... I just thought it was a sneaky excuse to let them live. I think that under those circumstances, SMs should have failed escape and been quickly dismantled, then utterly violated. The story just made me feel like everywhere I turn, the worst the SMs suffer is a hard fought battle where they lose many brethren, but they always successfully escape.

I think 'The Fall of Damnos' would have been a better book if the Ultramarines' means of escape had been neutralized and they got wiped out with the rest of the planet.

I would probably like SMs if they weren't so ridiculously perfect all the time. It's just such a contrived meme...

Archonate wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?

Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command

Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.

I understood that... I just thought it was a sneaky excuse to let them live. I think that under those circumstances, SMs should have failed escape and been quickly dismantled, then utterly violated. The story just made me feel like everywhere I turn, the worst the SMs suffer is a hard fought battle where they lose many brethren, but they always successfully escape.

I think 'The Fall of Damnos' would have been a better book if the Ultramarines' means of escape had been neutralized and they got wiped out with the rest of the planet.

I would probably like SMs if they weren't so ridiculously perfect all the time. It's just such a contrived meme...

Fall of Damnos is a terrible book, no matter what you change.

I actually rather prefer that Vect used the spacemarines and threw them away when they were of no further use, especially sinc ethey seem to be completely unaware that they were being staged every step of the way, in AND out

It makes the SM look like a bunch of tools

Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?

Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command

Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.

Right, he let them in, sabotaged the defense effort and used the opportunity to assassinate the leaders of the most prominent noble houses, then freed the captured strike cruiser and had his forces set upon the pursuers so they could escape. It wasn't about preserving the city, though: his goal was the utter humiliation of his political opponents, and had the Space Marines not been allowed to flee, they'd have been eradicated, which would have salvaged some of the noble houses' honor.


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SickSix wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

As for the poster boys, I would love the new poster boys to be the IG, this isn't the 80s, people are more into the Halo/Crysis realistic look rather than the clunky old Sci-fi nowadays. I'd prefer Cadians fighting sleek Tau anyday over the old 1980s heavy metal Space Marine v Chaos Space Marine.

That is a perfect contrast! The grimy, lower tech, humans versus the clean, sleek, ultra-tech alien race. It is the 'classical' sci-fi match-up! I would be all for that.

You mean the elite, ridiculously high-tech humans versus the primitive but straight-forward xenos tech, right? Some Tau tech might be more tactically useful, but it's still comparatively primitive (example: battlesuits versus power armor: battlesuits are the size of a dreadnought, provide protection mildly inferior to basic power armor, require a giant jet engine to move around at any speed, and require the use of an even-more-unstable version of the tech that the Imperium reserves for its titans in order to control; the battlesuit is more technologically primitive, even if fills a more useful role).

Much better to have Guard versus Orks, Nids, or Cultists (which would necessitate bringing back rules for them).

Archonate wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Did no-one grasp that they were allowed to leave?

Vect used them to achieve his goal, and then allowed them to get out of the way so that he could assume command

Keeping them in the city longer would have damaged the city further, and not further his goals any.

I understood that... I just thought it was a sneaky excuse to let them live. I think that under those circumstances, SMs should have failed escape and been quickly dismantled, then utterly violated. The story just made me feel like everywhere I turn, the worst the SMs suffer is a hard fought battle where they lose many brethren, but they always successfully escape.

I think 'The Fall of Damnos' would have been a better book if the Ultramarines' means of escape had been neutralized and they got wiped out with the rest of the planet.

I would probably like SMs if they weren't so ridiculously perfect all the time. It's just such a contrived meme...

That's right bro, its not enough that they were mauled and completely used like tools; they need to be cornered and mutilated like the dogs they are for being too good at what they're designed for!

The story was not a "sneaky excuse"; it was written at every angle to give Vect the edge, and to not annoy Salamanders fans by making them look like utter fools. Everyone involved reacted in a way that had neither come off as the less competent, but Vect was three steps ahead of everyone from the beginning.

Ironsight wrote:The story was not a "sneaky excuse"; it was written at every angle to give Vect the edge, and to not annoy Salamanders fans by making them look like utter fools.

Who gives a flying feth if SMs are made to look like utter fools? Every other race is made a fool of by SMs in one story or another.

Oh don't worry, GW's writers make Marines look like fools all the time. Just look at the battle for macragge.

I just got into the hobby and I chose space marines (crimson fists to be exact). I didn't realize how over-saturated the power armored soldiers were and if I could go back and choose again I would probably pick up Eldar. The main reason I chose space marines was the $$$$$. Other armies are just too expensive to field.

Having read through a few codecies I don't fully understand why there's so many SM codecies. I feel like you can feel the difference between a salamander army and a white scar army and a crimson fist army. Just because they all have the same access to units they can be played in totally different ways.

Once I get a few games under my belt and some cash flow I will probably start an Eldar army. Hopefully not to be brutalized by all the MEQS running around.

Most people start as marines such as myself but then move on to other armies. Marines especially in England are big every kid collects them however you can have lot's of different types with different themes and I would prefer it alot more if the Ultramarines went from there current image to the tyranid hunters of the last codex.

That would be cool, I want to make my army geared somewhat against orks, but I feel like I have to prepare to fight MEQs more than the vile greenskins.
Didn't an older edition book allow you to pay some points and make your army more skilled against a certain race? That could be cool to have again.

however you can have lot's of different types with different themes

My main issue is that it's still playing against T4 3+ with AV11. No matter what style of marines you are playing against, one of those two will be there in abundance (if not AV12 walkers, but I've never come across that). It all ends up feeling very similar. Of course, the guard off set this not with their T3 5+, but their AV12 with high firepower. Mainly, I want to play armies that play completely different from marines (would be nice to have some Dark Eldar, demons, orks and Tau in the area, but that's a local environment issue).

The ironic thing is I've always thought marines as equal in number as Eldar (both supposedly being rare) but that's not true. Eldar are (I believe) far more numerous than marines. The number of games against marines just skews perception so horribly though. But based on business there isn't much you can do about it. Marines do sell, and they are pretty cool. I think they just lose a bit of their individuality because they all have the same stat line (not that they shouldn't). While they may play very differently, playing against them feels the same (you deal with T4 3+ the same way really).

Smacks wrote:The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.

+1 to this. GW is to blame for the current loyalist MEQ heavy environment. Too many loyalist MEQ releases and not enough balance amongst all the factions. Players who wish to play a 5th edition codex have currently have a choice between 4 loyalist MEQ factions, IG, Tyranids and DE (in other words, 5 “hero” factions 2 “villain” factions). Choice is pretty much a no brainer in these cases. If you don’t like DE or Tyranids and you wish to play a 5th edition codex, you have to choose a loyalist MEQ faction.

Now if GW was like PP and target multiple factions with an update rather than slowly and individually, we probably wouldn’t be having this thread.

candy.man wrote:

Smacks wrote:The fly in the ointment however is that so far half the people I've played so far were also playing BA or SW . It might sound hypocritical but even I as marine player get kind of fed up with all the other marine players. I really want to try out my army against Guard or Nids but they just aren't as common. Marines fighting marines just doesn't seem as interesting.

+1 to this. GW is to blame for the current loyalist MEQ heavy environment. Too many loyalist MEQ releases and not enough balance amongst all the factions. Players who wish to play a 5th edition codex have currently have a choice between 4 loyalist MEQ factions, IG, Tyranids and DE (in other words, 5 “hero” factions 2 “villain” factions). Choice is pretty much a no brainer in these cases. If you don’t like DE or Tyranids and you wish to play a 5th edition codex, you have to choose a loyalist MEQ faction.

Now if GW was like PP and target multiple factions with an update rather than slowly and individually, we probably wouldn’t be having this thread.

Agreed... something for everyone at a good pace is better than the current "suspense" (read also: frustration) and feast/famine mode we currently have. And we really don't need as many MEQ codices as other codices. I really think (as I've said before) that two comprehensive marine hard back codices would make more sense than the current madness (though holistically, I really really like 5th edition rules, just not the update process).