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Kanluwen wrote:I'd rather let an Astartes of the Dark Angels or Raven Guard Chapters run a covert operation than a Thorian Inquisitor, but I wouldn't have a Space Wolf or Black Templar run the same covert operation.

Run one... maybe, as a good sergeant or captain is bound to have leadership skills for such a small scale endeavor. PARTICIPATE? No. The Astartes would give himself away even if he was dressed in civvy clothes.

The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.

They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity. Astartes have faster reaction speed, I'd grant you that, but there honestly isn't anything in their extra organs or their training indicating that they're going to have a higher intellectual capacity than any common human.

In fact, humans can also receive hypnotherapy and mental indoctrinations. Assassins do this, as do the Mechanicus (albeit via a different route). Even psykers often receive levels of hypnotherapy as part of their sanctioning.



As a side note and somewhat unrelated, my scholar in Dark Heresy has an intelligence far beyond anything a Marine can ever hope to achieve... Having Unnatural Intelligence (4) or so by the end of her Ascension xp, and an intelligence rating of 70 or so, giving her an intelligence bonus of 28, about seven times that of the average Deathwatch Astartes. Even before she ascension, she had 60 and a bonus of 12...

Effectively, she was knowledgeable and intelligent enough to be able to teach Imperial tactics to veteran Astartes of the deathwatch. It was hilarious.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'd rather let an Astartes of the Dark Angels or Raven Guard Chapters run a covert operation than a Thorian Inquisitor, but I wouldn't have a Space Wolf or Black Templar run the same covert operation.

Run one... maybe, as a good sergeant or captain is bound to have leadership skills for such a small scale endeavor. PARTICIPATE? No. The Astartes would give himself away even if he was dressed in civvy clothes.

Covert operations do not necessarily require dressing in civvy clothes and talking to civilians with a cover identity. That's "espionage", specifically.

To give an example: the Raven Guard ran "covert operations" on Ork held worlds prior to Kastorel-Novem to gather intelligence. They used Scout Squads in hidden observation posts, listening posts, and simple visual confirmation of various Klans, etc involved.

Putting it bluntly: "investigations" don't need to be conducted in the manner you're referring to exclusively. If you were to ask a member of the Dark Angels to find a heretic cell on an Imperial world, I can confidently say they'd find it--but their methods to find it wouldn't be pretty.

The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.

They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity. Astartes have faster reaction speed, I'd grant you that, but there honestly isn't anything in their extra organs or their training indicating that they're going to have a higher intellectual capacity than any common human.

In fact, humans can also receive hypnotherapy and mental indoctrinations. Assassins do this, as do the Mechanicus (albeit via a different route). Even psykers often receive levels of hypnotherapy as part of their sanctioning.

Part of the mental indoctrinations and hypnotherapy is the kind of stuff that makes the Astartes able to 'do things by instinct' such as assembling weapons unfamiliar to them, etc.

As a side note and somewhat unrelated, my scholar in Dark Heresy has an intelligence far beyond anything a Marine can ever hope to achieve... Having Unnatural Intelligence (4) or so by the end of her Ascension xp, and an intelligence rating of 70 or so, giving her an intelligence bonus of 28, about seven times that of the average Deathwatch Astartes. Even before she ascension, she had 60 and a bonus of 12...
Effectively, she was knowledgeable and intelligent enough to be able to teach Imperial tactics to veteran Astartes of the deathwatch. It was hilarious.

Yeah, that's an example of when I'd say "Ignore the smartypants, it's a backseat tactician".

You might, but she was also a combat veteran. I mean, you HAVE to be to survive in Dark Heresy-- you try playing an Adept from 0 XP to the last rank of Ascension and having her actually survive with most of her limbs intact...

It's a lot harder than it sounds, even for Dark Heresy. Adepts have the lowest wound count of any DH character...

Part of the mental indoctrinations and hypnotherapy is the kind of stuff that makes the Astartes able to 'do things by instinct' such as assembling weapons unfamiliar to them, etc.

But as I said, that's something normal humans can and do receive.

It's not like the implants, which are unique to Astartes...

Melissia wrote:You might, but she was also a combat veteran. I mean, you HAVE to be to survive in Dark Heresy-- you try playing an Adept from 0 XP to the last rank of Ascension and having her actually survive with most of her limbs intact...

It's a lot harder than it sounds, even for Dark Heresy. Adepts have the lowest wound count of any DH character...

Aemos was a combat veteran, by your definition in that he "survived".
He was also completely useless in combat, but had an absurdly high theoretical grasp of tactics.

Just sayin'

Part of the mental indoctrinations and hypnotherapy is the kind of stuff that makes the Astartes able to 'do things by instinct' such as assembling weapons unfamiliar to them, etc.

But as I said, that's something normal humans can and do receive.

It's not like the implants, which are unique to Astartes...

I dunno. They make it seem like Astartes are a bit more 'open' to the hypnoconditioning process due to their overall conditioning.

Actually she got the most kills out of the group aside from the heavy stubber wielding brute we had as a guardsman...

Her hand cannon was notorious for getting high damage headshots

It's possible... but I doubt it. It's probably more likely that the methods aren't well known.

Armadeus wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Armadeus wrote:So its not posible to have an "inquisator chapter master" is it then?

Not possible. You could have a chapter like the exorcists, or red hunters, that works very closely with the inquisition.

Thats basicly the idea for my chapter, but it declared itself an army of the inquasition, and its chapter master is both a space marine and an inquisator. It would also have inquisators in chapter command (but only the chapter master is both space marine AND inquisator, the others are just inquisators).

A space marine chapter master that has the power to take any military/political position and supplies he wants? There is a book dealing with this, the Codex Astartes, power was seperated to stop the Horus Heresy happening again. It is highly unlikely that a modern space marine to be made an inquisitor and impossible for an active chapter master to be one.

The only evidence I have seen that marines have a higher intellegence than humans is from the Inquisitor RPG.

A SM has the basic Sagacity of 75 where as a well educated man would be around 50 and an inquisitor will have 75 - 95 depending if they are an acolite or lord.

Way back to the OP, yes a space marine might be able to become an inquisitor (but, I assume would end up leaving his chapter). It is very strongly hinted to at the end of the Grey Knight novels that Alaric has the opportunity to leave his Chapter (Grey Knights) and become an member of an inquisition team... which at least leaves the possibility of him becoming an inquisitor.

An Astartes is a terrible thing to waste. Few and not easily replaced, I seriously doubt their chapter would let their finest go, even if it`s the Inquisition who's calling.

Really, Astartes are bioengineered supersoldiers, literally bred for combat. Even if some individual marines know better about daemons and heretics than your average inquisitor, their place is in the battlefield, not doing police work that, important as it may be, could be carried out by ordinary, unmodified humans.

It would technically be possible for a Space Marine to be an Inquisitor. The Astartes and Inquisition both operate with basically no oversight, so there isn't really anyone to tell them they couldn't do this if they wanted to.

Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.

DarknessEternal wrote:It would technically be possible for a Space Marine to be an Inquisitor. The Astartes and Inquisition both operate with basically no oversight, so there isn't really anyone to tell them they couldn't do this if they wanted to.

No, it would not. The Inquisition does not admit Astartes within their ranks.

And the Inquisition has oversight. The Inquisition itself. They garner an atmosphere of paranoia and "Trust Noone" for a reason.

Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.

So false I'm not even sure why you'd post it.

There is no "typical" reason why Marines do not get along with the Inquisition at large. That's not true and is a fallacy that is established based on Astartes reactions dealing with specific Inquisitors and their methods.

For example: the Astartes would object if an Inquisitor showed up in their fortress-monastery and started ordering them around and refusing to treat them with the respect that they deserve as inheritors of the Emperor's legacy.
Why? The Astartes are not under the purview of the Inquisition. There's no reason for an Inquisitor to start doing that, and Inquisitors who tend towards behaving that way aren't usually on the up and up.

In many cases, if that Inquisitor were to show up and petition the Astartes for aid--they'd get it no questions asked.

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it would not. The Inquisition does not admit Astartes within their ranks.

The Inquisition was founded with Astartes as their original members, so that's flat out incorrect. That they don't typically do it now is irrelevant to whether or not they could. They don't typically keep pet Hormaguants either, but one Inquisitor certainly does.

Kanluwen wrote:
And the Inquisition has oversight. The Inquisition itself. They garner an atmosphere of paranoia and "Trust Noone" for a reason.

Right, that's the definition of no oversight.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.

Kanluwen wrote:
So false I'm not even sure why you'd post it.

Because that's been the background since both organizations have existed in the 40k fluff. Space Marines don't take kindly to being ordered around as they believe they are not subject to Imperial authority. The Inquisition believes they have the right to order everyone else in the Imperium around. Those two things don't mix and it's come up numerous times in the background.

Kanluwen wrote:
In many cases, if that Inquisitor were to show up and petition the Astartes for aid--they'd get it no questions asked.

And in some cases, the Inquisition is fired upon, no questions asked, when they show up in Space Marine territory. Space Wolves are at a state of declared open war with the Inquisition.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it would not. The Inquisition does not admit Astartes within their ranks.

The Inquisition was founded with Astartes as their original members, so that's flat out incorrect. That they don't typically do it now is irrelevant to whether or not they could. They don't typically keep pet Hormaguants either, but one Inquisitor certainly does.

Actually the Inquisition being founded with Astartes as their original members is pure speculation at this point.

Kanluwen wrote:
And the Inquisition has oversight. The Inquisition itself. They garner an atmosphere of paranoia and "Trust Noone" for a reason.

Right, that's the definition of no oversight.

Uh no. It's called "internal oversight".

DarknessEternal wrote:
Typically, Marines do not get along with the Inquisition, because they both consider themselves to be the higher authority on most things, so such a thing would be very unlikely.

Kanluwen wrote:
So false I'm not even sure why you'd post it.

Because that's been the background since both organizations have existed in the 40k fluff. Space Marines don't take kindly to being ordered around as they believe they are not subject to Imperial authority. The Inquisition believes they have the right to order everyone else in the Imperium around. Those two things don't mix and it's come up numerous times in the background.

Space Marines don't take kindly to being ordered around by someone who proclaims himself the Emperor's will made manifest, when the Space Marines are effectively the "Grandsons of the Emperor".

This isn't a case of "they believe they are not subject to Imperial authority". This is a case of "We know our usage and place better than you".
If an Inquisitor comes in and demands an entire Chapter serve as frontline troops in a warzone, they'll laugh and throw his arse right back on his ship--with good reason, too.

Kanluwen wrote:
In many cases, if that Inquisitor were to show up and petition the Astartes for aid--they'd get it no questions asked.

And in some cases, the Inquisition is fired upon, no questions asked, when they show up in Space Marine territory. Space Wolves are at a state of declared open war with the Inquisition.

You still have yet to prove why this would be the one inviolable rule of the Inquisition. They use aliens, make pacts with daemons, hold aliens in slave labor, exterminate their own innocent populace, etc.

They do whatever they feel like doing. They do whatever it takes. How is inviting a Space Marine into the Inquisition less tolerable than cavorting with daemons, for example?

Quick question where does it say that marines can't join the inquisition? Doesn't an Imperial fist join draco in the inquisition trilogy books and (correct me if i'm wrong on this) but doesn't an inquisitor offer Alaric a job at the end of the last grey knights book, if a space marine can be recruited into a warband couldn't he possibly become an inquisitor if deemed worthy?

They should be able to be inquisitors

Why?
It just allows SM to be even more Mary Sue than they already are and they are pretty Mary Sue already.

No, its not possible.
Stop doing fluff gymnastics. Actually think about the issue and it becomes clear that this scenario is nonsense.

DarknessEternal wrote:You still have yet to prove why this would be the one inviolable rule of the Inquisition.

You've yet to prove that it's not.

They use aliens, make pacts with daemons, hold aliens in slave labor, exterminate their own innocent populace, etc.
They do whatever they feel like doing. They do whatever it takes. How is inviting a Space Marine into the Inquisition less tolerable than cavorting with daemons, for example?

You must not read much fluff.

They 'use aliens and hold aliens in slave labor'--because they believe it is their right, as the Emperor's will made manifest and in the greater interests of humanity, to do such a thing. They play aliens off against one another more often than they "use aliens" as bodyguards and line troopers.
The Jokaero thing is actually a retcon to earlier fluff where every time the Jokaero were 'captured'--the Jokaero built a device and escaped.

Making pacts with Daemons is grounds for being called a heretic and put to death by the Inquisition. That's the whole point of the Eisenhorn series, btw, wherein an Inquisitor becomes more and more jaded and realizes more that "the ends justify the means" is the worst possible way to go.

Exterminating "their own innocent populace" is actually rarely done. They don't just wake up and say "Y'know, I feel like killing a world today". It's usually done in such a dire situation that it would be stupid for them not to do it.

Kanluwen wrote:-because they believe it is their right, as the Emperor's will made manifest and in the greater interests of humanity,

And somehow this can never be "have a Space Marine in the organization"? That makes less sense that keeping a hormaguant as a guard dog, which is canon.

The only thing the Inquistion will never do is limit themselves. If they wanted a Space Marine Inquisitor, they would make it happen. They've made far more ludicrous decisions.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:-because they believe it is their right, as the Emperor's will made manifest and in the greater interests of humanity,

And somehow this can never be "have a Space Marine in the organization"? That makes less sense that keeping a hormaguant as a guard dog, which is canon.

The only thing the Inquistion will never do is limit themselves. If they wanted a Space Marine Inquisitor, they would make it happen. They've made far more ludicrous decisions.

And how, praytell, would a Space Marine become an inquisitor?

Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.

You'd have to focus on -

1.) Why would the Inquisition specifically want a space marine as an inquisitor? Does the Inquisition need a space marine specifically (And if so, why? It'd be much easier just to borrow a handful as is usually done.)? Or is there something unusual about the marine in question?
2.) Why would the marine want to leave his chapter to join the Inquisition? The marine has spent almost his entire life in the chapter. Fighting is what he was designed to do and it's what he understands. Why would he leave that life in order to go running around the galaxy chasing shadows? A space marine has lots of experience performing assaults on well-defended structures and similar sorts of things. While inquisitors do sometimes see that sort of thing, it's the exception more than the rule. Working as an inquisitor would require the marine to develop an entirely new skillset.
3.) Why would the marine's Chapter Master agree to allow the marine to leave the chapter? Presumably, the marine in question has a rather unusual skillset, which is why he's being released to the Inquisition. Why would the Chapter Master agree to allow the marine to leave the chapter permanently?

These aren't insurmountable by any means, but they're something that needs to be thought if you want to try to develop this properly.

Melissia wrote:Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.

I'd agree with this...

Melissia wrote:Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.

Thats probably more or less fair. Save for "and they shall know no fear", chaplains, librarians, dreadnoughts, many company captains and above, also the Grey Knights and chapters akin to the Exorcists.
For the rank and file, I think that might be fair. Of course, its a much more complex issue than simply labeling it as "willpower"

The methods by which an Inquisitor is trained are far more intense than the training methods of an Astartes.

Inquisitors are willing to put an entire planet in jeopardy just to test a single Interrogator to see if he or she is worthy to the title.

One example given is that a single test for then-Interrogator Okonawk caused over 100,000 people to die, and the entire thing was completely and utterly orchestrated by his Inquisitor to test his fortitude. It's common enough that they have a name for it, the "Armageddon Protocol", where the cadre in question is forced to try to prevent the destruction of an entire world, even as the destruction is being orchestrated by the Inquisitor. Frequently, they don't even allow the Inquisitor-to-be any chance of success, the entire mission being specifically a zero-sum mission, and the test is about their will to keep going on no matter the situation.

Let me repeat-- hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people are killed off merely as a single test of many.

Space Marines are lightly trained in comparison to Inquisitors.

yes, and astartes pull the trigger of Exterminatus

People, Its not that a biological Astartes cannot be an Inquisitor. It's that someone from the Chapters cannot be in the Inquisition. They are two distinct entities and there's a conflict of interest. You're either in the Inquisition or you're not. It has nothing to do with the physiology. A lot of Inquisitors do much weirder stuff to themselves than an Astartes could ever think of. Some are much less human than Astares or even AdMechA.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:People, Its not that a biological Astartes cannot be an Inquisitor. It's that someone from the Chapters cannot be in the Inquisition. They are two distinct entities and there's a conflict of interest. You're either in the Inquisition or you're not. It has nothing to do with the physiology. A lot of Inquisitors do much weirder stuff to themselves than an Astartes could ever think of. Some are much less human than Astares or even AdMechA.

This

DEUS VULT wrote:yes, and astartes pull the trigger of Exterminatus

Most of the time, no.