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Seaward wrote:Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?

No, I have no intention of holding on to the believe that you have that all fluff is considered equal.

Yes, everyone has an opinion. This is mine. Saying "omg tahts juts ur opnion" is nonsensical . No gak it's mine. Do you have a point?

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?

No, I have no intention of holding on to the believe that you have that all fluff is considered equal.

Yes, everyone has an opinion. This is mine.

My point was, specifically, that all fluff isn't equal.

It was also mild amusement at your habit of disregarding the GW sources that don't support your opinion in favor of the ones that do.

Edit: And to answer the edited sentiment...stop presenting your opinion as fact. It ain't. Wishing doesn't make it so.

Seaward wrote:Edit: And to answer the edited sentiment...stop presenting your opinion as fact. It ain't. Wishing doesn't make it so.

The fact that you interpret stated opinions as fact is your failure.

This is an internet forum. The unstated words before every post is "in my opinion". Some opinions are better sourced than others, some are correct but are unsourced, some are incorrect but have sources, some are completely nonsensical and irrelevant to everything in the discussion. You, personally, will value each opinion differently depending on your own point of view.

I shouldn't have to copy and paste "in my opinion" into every single post I make. So you say "that's just your opinion", and I respond "no gak captain Sherlock McObviouspants" and have a good laugh. Because yes indeed, that is what my posts are. I'm glad you noticed!

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Edit: And to answer the edited sentiment...stop presenting your opinion as fact. It ain't. Wishing doesn't make it so.

The fact that you interpret stated opinions as fact is your failure.

This is an internet forum. The unstated words before every post is "in my opinion". Some opinions are better sourced than others, some are correct but are unsourced, some are incorrect but have sources, some are completely nonsensical and irrelevant to everything in the discussion. You, personally, will value each opinion differently depending on your own point of view.

I shouldn't have to copy and paste "in my opinion" into every single post I make. So you say "that's just your opinion", and I respond "no gak captain Sherlock McObviouspants" and have a good laugh. Because yes indeed, that is what my posts are. I'm glad you noticed!

I'm glad we're in agreement that your assertions are worth no more than anyone else's. For a while there, you seemed to be taking yourself awfully seriously about highly trivial things.

BluntmanDC wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?

That's simply not true. A boy just has a much higher chance to survive Astartes augmentation.

Two examples:
Leman Russ' warriors on Fenris insisted on undergoing the full augmentation procedure despite their advanced age. Many did not survive, some did.

There's a blurb in one of the Chaos Space Marine codecies from the point of view of a soldier in a rebellion. All of the survivors of that battle undergo augmentation. At least he survives to become a full marine.

Apart from the fact that every other source backs my point

No, every other source does not. Those were just two examples. There are many more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Deathwatch also supports this conclusion. Marines are no more intelligent than the average Inquisitorial acolyte.

Marines are 10 points smarter in those two systems at the start.

Melissia wrote:
I shouldn't have to copy and paste "in my opinion" into every single post I make. So you say "that's just your opinion", and I respond "no gak captain Sherlock McObviouspants" and have a good laugh. Because yes indeed, that is what my posts are. I'm glad you noticed!

Boy, if only they hand a short hand way to show something was In My Opinion on forums... then people would be expected to actually use it.

Melissa, I lurk way more than I post, and you have a nasty habit of calling out any BL fluff as poorly written, or overstated... and even whine about plot armor in GW codices as being unrealistic and therefore ignorable. And then turn around and cite whatever you want as being canonical because some out of house company published it. You can't have it both ways (or if you keep trying, you increase the chances of people ignoring you (IMO) ).

I think its very clear that BL stuff operates with different rule systems and universal truths than WH40k the TT game and neither of them perfectly jive with the RPG.

Just look at all the effects that an SM captain with a command squad (or a lone commissar) has on a battle field in BL stuff... then compare that to the WH40k battlefield. Clearly not the same effects are typically noticed (IMHO).

Lobukia wrote:Boy, if only they hand a short hand way to show something was In My Opinion on forums... then people would be expected to actually use it.

Oh please, I'm not going to say IMO every time I post. That would be stupid.

DarknessEternal wrote:Marines are 10 points smarter in those two systems at the start.

Not really.

The Marines of Deathwatch are veterans with several thousand experience point to start off with. Effectively, they basically have already purchased two advances in most of their stats over a human. Hell, this is actually pretty accurate, considering they only have four advances compared to a human having six... the human's being cheaper for their initial advances I should note.

Humans start out at 0 XP, the Deathwatch Marines are veterans, and start out at 13,000. By the time humans get up to 13,000 xp, most classes can easily exceed the stats that Deathwatch marines have except for strength and toughness. And have more talents and skills to boot to suit their given roles (an Adept being a fountain of knowledge and logic, for example). But the Deathwatch have superior biology and equipment. The Inquisition makes use of both, because both are very useful.

Which is, you know, pretty accurate to the lore.

purplefood wrote:Lets just say no the the OP...

Seaward wrote:So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.

Are you *seriously* discussing whether or not Goto should be considered lore? Or even the equivalent of other sources?

/facepalm


On another note...

Despite the rather detailed list of modifications that go into a space marine, there haven't yet been any that mentioned an increase in intelligence. Given that we even know they can spit acid and eat the flesh of their enemies to gain information, the lack of mention of boosted intelligence seems rather telling.

Tis true. There's no brain boosting implant that I know of. Memory is different than intelligence. They also has astounding powers of focus and concentration but this is most likely from living like Buddhist monks more than anything.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:I don't have to answer that, because Dark Heresy was originally worked on by GW itself, and consistently sends writers to work on its supplements. The lore within Dark Heresy is GW lore, through and through.

So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.

Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?

A kindred soul! i agree sir, 100%!

As for marine intelligence id like to point out that there are many kinds of intellect, some of which are hard to rate or meassure. Im sure, that the marines can be considered smarter considering that emotions rarely cloud their judgement and that they dont develop insanities at the same rate as your typical guardsman.

Besides, its all relative... i know the reference is wierd but superman is often described as a genius in the comics yet manages to get outsmarted by idiots all the time.

Eumerin wrote:

Seaward wrote:So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.

Are you *seriously* discussing whether or not Goto should be considered lore? Or even the equivalent of other sources?

/facepalm

Nah. I was pointing out that GW slaps their seal on all sorts of worthless crap, and it's up to the end user to determine which is authoritative and which isn't. I, for instance, don't think someone's Mary Sue tabletop RPG inquisitor retinue character or whatever having higher intelligence than a Marine is definitive proof that inquisitors are smarter than Marines, but that's me.

Seaward wrote:I'm glad we're in agreement that your assertions are worth no more than anyone else's. For a while there, you seemed to be taking yourself awfully seriously about highly trivial things.

Oh snap!

Wait... let me consult the chart to make sure I'm using that correctly.



Let's see... yes... carry the one... okay! Everything seems in order. The "Oh snap!" stands.


That said, I have no doubt the average Inquisitor is far more intelligent than the average Astartes, if only by virtue of their upbringing. The Inquisitors usually start off with "normal" human lives, go through rigorous education that goes beyond, "Anoint thy bolter and shooteth the heretic in the gonads" on all sorts of subjects, and are expected to interact with a far wider assortment of individuals in the course of their day to day work (again, beyond just meeting interesting people, and perforating them with mass-reactive rounds).

Inquisitors are also expected to know far, FAR more about the galaxy than Space Marines are as well, enough to shatter most people's worldviews, and quite easily enough to cause Marinse to turn to Chaos (Emperor knows they've turned to Chaos for far more petty reasons).

tarnish wrote:
Besides, its all relative... i know the reference is wierd but superman is often described as a genius in the comics yet manages to get outsmarted by idiots all the time.

Very true!

He's described as a genius because he can understand and solve any maths or physics related problem in a second, he can speak any language and he can build incredible machines.

However, all this genius does not make him the best at tactics or politics.

I imagine it's the same with Marines; they've got incredible memories, can learn languages quickly and pick up any task as though born to it. And, of course, the have a very sound grasp of on the move tactics (as anyone would with 300+ years of experience).

But this doesn't automatically translate well to other areas of intelligence.

Seaward wrote:Nah. I was pointing out that GW slaps their seal on all sorts of worthless crap, and it's up to the end user to determine which is authoritative and which isn't. I, for instance, don't think someone's Mary Sue tabletop RPG inquisitor retinue character or whatever having higher intelligence than a Marine is definitive proof that inquisitors are smarter than Marines, but that's me.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. The impression I got was that Melissia was largely using RPG stats in general and for the most part not referencing her adept specifically. She mentioned her adept early on, but the mentions since then have mostly been generalized and referencing the Dark Heresy/Deathwatch systems as a whole.


And no offense, but in this instance we're pretty much reduced to looking at whether marines have a "super smarty" gland. And since even that doesn't appear to be helping to settle things (they don't have such a gland, but tarnish is already arguing that it's irrelevant more or less "just because"). the only other thing that you really have to fall back on for any kind of evidence is stats in an RPG that was developed by GW (and then subsequently handed off to FFG).

If you've got something better, then by all means lets see it.

As for my Adept, she most assuredly wasn't mary sue. Her fellowship was about a 5 or 10 out of 100 (because she was a Blank, and therefor had notoriously and hilariously bad fellowship, as all Blanks do). She couldn't sweet talk her way out of bumping into someone in a hallway that was in a reasonably good mood, nevermind someone important.

Dark Heresy is fun like that. The only way to get ridiculously high stats in any of FFG's games is to focus on that stat and forego either the other stats or skills/talents in your tree. You never have enough XP, and your character is never good enough for the job. You just have to work with what you have.

Melissa wrote:Dark Heresy is fun like that. The only way to get ridiculously high stats in any of FFG's games is to focus on that stat and forego either the other stats or skills/talents in your tree. You never have enough XP, and your character is never good enough for the job. You just have to work with what you have.

Many are called, most are found wanting.

DH classes are designed to be that way: their range, depth and breadth of skills ensure that two players, both making characters of the same class, will create radically different, individual characters with different skills, strengths, weaknesses and applications.


@OP: To answer your question... no. Space Marines may serve the Inquisition, but they cannot become Inquisitors.

Which is roughly equivalent to how things work out in real life. Not exactly so, but then, that's why you have elite advances and class replacement packages.

@OP: No.
@The SM Intelligence debate: I don't remember reading anything about Intelligence Super-Implants included in the paackage, fluff and codex wise, so, in my honest **GUESS**, I think SM intelligence varies from every marine. Just like humans. But there's probably some standards for recruitment
They probably get smarter over their years of service, too.

Agent_Tremolo said

An Astartes is a terrible thing to waste. Few and not easily replaced, I seriously doubt their chapter would let their finest go, even if it`s the Inquisition who's calling.

Really, Astartes are bioengineered supersoldiers, literally bred for combat. Even if some individual marines know better about daemons and heretics than your average inquisitor, their place is in the battlefield, not doing police work that, important as it may be, could be carried out by ordinary, unmodified humans.

Agreed out of 1000 applicants 1 will become a full fledged battlebrother. With GK I think its 1 of 100000000000 I think correct me if I am wrong please.

MendedDragon wrote:
@The SM Intelligence debate: I don't remember reading anything about Intelligence Super-Implants included in the paackage, fluff and codex wise, so, in my honest **GUESS**, I think SM intelligence varies from every marine. Just like humans.

Heresy-era marines sure seem to think they had modified intellectual capabilities, so sayeth the HH series.

DarknessEternal wrote:

MendedDragon wrote:
@The SM Intelligence debate: I don't remember reading anything about Intelligence Super-Implants included in the paackage, fluff and codex wise, so, in my honest **GUESS**, I think SM intelligence varies from every marine. Just like humans.

Heresy-era marines sure seem to think they had modified intellectual capabilities, so sayeth the HH series.

Eh, I was about to read that next, after I got done with Guant's Ghosts. I was making a guess for Post-Heresy, please pardon

Space marines are bred for war, they are warriors. All their training and ideology focus around one thing, how to kill the guy over there before he can kill you.
They know no fear, they know no pity, they know no remorse. They are arrogant recluses who move from battlefield too battlefield waiting to die gloriously in the name of a corpse god.
They know nothing outside their world of perpetual warfare.

A space marine becoming a inquisitor wont happen, they do not know how to be one. They know nothing else but war and death. An inquisitor has to be cunning, they have to outsmart the greatest threats that face the Imperium on a daily basis.
Anyway, inquisitors greatest weapon is being unknown, that spreads fear and respect far more effectively then a gun. A 7 foot tall super warrior would stand out a bit too much.

Malivon wrote:Agent_Tremolo said

An Astartes is a terrible thing to waste. Few and not easily replaced, I seriously doubt their chapter would let their finest go, even if it`s the Inquisition who's calling.

Really, Astartes are bioengineered supersoldiers, literally bred for combat. Even if some individual marines know better about daemons and heretics than your average inquisitor, their place is in the battlefield, not doing police work that, important as it may be, could be carried out by ordinary, unmodified humans. .

Inquisitors are anything but "ordinary" humans. Unmodified, sometimes, but by no means "ordinary".

Indeed, individual Inquisitors are more unique,special, and overall capable than individual Astartes in every area but war.

Can we not just go with no already?
If you want to do it for fluff it reeks of Mary Sue which is never a nice thing to in a story 40k or otherwise.

Melissia wrote:Indeed, individual Inquisitors are more unique,special, and overall capable than individual Astartes in every area but war.

And given the right amount of credits, could be physically enhanced to be the equal of an Astartes. They won't have the centuries of experience in open warfare, but I'm sure there is an Inquisitor or two out there who could beat an Astartes at arm-wrestling.

purplefood wrote:Can we not just go with no already?

If a half-eldar, astropath can be an honorary Ultramarine, the sky's the limit.

This setting goes to 11.

DarknessEternal wrote:
This setting goes to 11.

Does that mean its louder?

But doesn't mean it's better composed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:

Melissia wrote:Indeed, individual Inquisitors are more unique,special, and overall capable than individual Astartes in every area but war.

And given the right amount of credits, could be physically enhanced to be the equal of an Astartes. They won't have the centuries of experience in open warfare, but I'm sure there is an Inquisitor or two out there who could beat an Astartes at arm-wrestling.

I think it was Eisenhorn who used an Astartes bolt pistol effortlessly, WITHOUT power armor, was it? he'd probably be a good example.