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Melissia wrote:

nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?

What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review?

Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.

I'm not the one claiming that Astartes lack the authority to call for exterminatus, considering that they only answer to the Emperor (and he's not talking much these days).

There are examples in the codices, books, etc where they do call for exterminatus and are not brought to task for it, perhaps because they only resort to it in extreme circumstances and don't just leap to using it to clear Genestealer and Chaos cult infestations

Space marines are genetically altered,psychologically conditioned,and spiritually molded for War. There are some,Chapter masters and Captains mostly, who do ok in political situations.

An Inquisitor cannot always be guns out blazing away.For the most part they have to root out the Herectics,Xenos,or Chaos first. And that involves red tape, a thing most marines would find unbearable.

Then when they are aware of the ongoings,they investigate.How easy can a gigantic man( as space marines would be seen) hide in a crowd of normae l people?

Also Space marines have Chaplains to whom they go to keep their soul pure.Librarians to sense corruption at its start.Who would a Space marine Inquisitor go to? What makes a Space marine also destroys the human in them.They sacrifice their humanity to protect Humanity itself. Without the Chaplains and Librarians how easily will a Space Marine Inquisitor fall to the lure of Chaos he is hunting?

nobody wrote:

Melissia wrote:

nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?

What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review?

Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.

I'm not the one claiming that Astartes lack the authority to call for exterminatus, considering that they only answer to the Emperor (and he's not talking much these days).

There are examples in the codices, books, etc where they do call for exterminatus and are not brought to task for it, perhaps because they only resort to it in extreme circumstances and don't just leap to using it to clear Genestealer and Chaos cult infestations

Astartes answer to the Lords of Terra, the Emperor's representatives. The Inquisitors also carry the Emperor's authority, so Astartes very much answer to them as well.

That's also proven to be wrong, many Astrartes don't agree with and actively go against the Inquisition, refusing to take order from them, although it's only ever when The Inquisitor tries to order them around like he's the authority, or does something very stupid. they essentially co-exist due to the fact that their goals generally over-lap I'm not even sure they answer to The High Lords.

Yes, a space marine can be an inquisitor. Y'all need to read your massive collections of fluff.

Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)

Even the Horus Heresy shows astartes taking on unusual roles of power. (Nemesis)

Some mystery fluff hints at astartes involvement as well. (Inquisitor)

Omegus wrote:

nobody wrote:

Melissia wrote:

nobody wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the source on your statement that Astartes cannot declare exterminatus?

What source do you have to say that they have the authority to put to death billions upon billions of people and irrevocably remove the resources of an entire planet from the Imperial arsenal without Inquisitorial review?

Even an Inquisitor can be punished for declaring exterminatus. Astartes are far, far less than an Inquisitor.

I'm not the one claiming that Astartes lack the authority to call for exterminatus, considering that they only answer to the Emperor (and he's not talking much these days).

There are examples in the codices, books, etc where they do call for exterminatus and are not brought to task for it, perhaps because they only resort to it in extreme circumstances and don't just leap to using it to clear Genestealer and Chaos cult infestations

Astartes answer to the Lords of Terra, the Emperor's representatives. The Inquisitors also carry the Emperor's authority, so Astartes very much answer to them as well.

To an extent, yes. Astartes can and do reject Inquisitional requests, albet with potential consequences (see also, Celestial Lions).

But to the point of the matter, the Astartes can and do carry out Exterminatus, and do not require Inquisitional authority to do so.

DeffDred wrote:Yes, a space marine can be an inquisitor. Y'all need to read your massive collections of fluff.

I think you need to, as Space Marines can't in fluff.

Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)

Wrong, Inquisiors have never been turned into Astartes

Even the Horus Heresy shows astartes taking on unusual roles of power. (Nemesis)

What roles of power were these?

Some mystery fluff hints at astartes involvement as well. (Inquisitor)

Involvement in what? They are sometimes part of retinues, in The Deathwatch, or in The Grey Knights.

DeffDred wrote:Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)

Citations, please. Future Grey Knights are taken at a very young age. They wouldn't have the opportunity to start out as inquisitors before becoming a marine.

And geneseed doesn't implant into a fully matured individual. So even if someone wanted to make an exception for a specific inquisitor, it still wouldn't be possible.

iproxtaco wrote:That's also proven to be wrong, many Astrartes don't agree with and actively go against the Inquisition, refusing to take order from them, although it's only ever when The Inquisitor tries to order them around like he's the authority, or does something very stupid. they essentially co-exist due to the fact that their goals generally over-lap I'm not even sure they answer to The High Lords.

I would like to see a citation for them "actively" going against the Inquisition (even Logan wasn't able to do much in the face of the Inquisition's decision to crap all over Armaggeddon for example). Yes, they may resist/ignore an order of an Inquisitor (what's t-at, sir? y--r sig-n-l is bre--ing up *click*) if they are acting completely obnoxious or asking for something ridiculous, but that's different from active opposition. More than one chapter has been excommunicated (or declared tratoris blah blah faux latin of choice blah) at an Inquisitor's order.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.

They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity.

Sure they have. You appear to have a tendency to confuse the difference between being aware of the correct tactics for survival and simply not making use of them versus not knowing them in the first place. There are plenty of examples of Space Marines having the opportunity to retreat and survive and choosing not to do so, for a variety of reasons. Honor, symbolism, fatalism, stubbornness. They're archaic, not idiots. I know that perception provides the warm fuzzies when you compare them to the paragons of all that is good and awesome in the form of Sisters of Battle, but it's just nor born up by reality.

Melissia wrote:Quite frankly, and I know this is gonna cause a gakstorm, Space Marines don't have the indomitable willpower that inquisitors do.

I'd say they do. Far as I know, the only folks who haven't had members of their organization give in to Chaos are the Grey Knights. Other chapters have had Astartes fall, the Inquisition's had inquisitors fall...if the test for 'indomitable willpower,' is the ability to push on in the face of overwhelming odds, you're shortchanging the 40K poster boys considerably.


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Omegus wrote:
Astartes answer to the Lords of Terra, the Emperor's representatives. The Inquisitors also carry the Emperor's authority, so Astartes very much answer to them as well.

That's debatable, and varies from chapter to chapter. Helbrecht, for example, answers to nobody but Helbrecht. And the Lords of Terra don't push the issue.

It's been a long time since I've read any Dark Angels fluff, but I'm fairly sure they've shot an inquisitor or two who was poking around too close for comfort. Inquisitors tend to leave the Astartes alone, and the Astartes tend to do the same. An Inquisitor can request Astartes aid, but I don't recall any examples of them ever outright ordering it for non-Grey Knights chapters.

Cadian Blood's a good example.

DeffDred wrote:Grey Knights are the most notable. They often times are inquisitors turned into astartes. (Index Astartes)

That is a ridiculous statement, it takes decades for a person to become an inquisitor (from fluff/codex) and that is after they have worked their way up the ranks from helper to apprentice.

A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's also proven to be wrong, many Astrartes don't agree with and actively go against the Inquisition, refusing to take order from them, although it's only ever when The Inquisitor tries to order them around like he's the authority, or does something very stupid. they essentially co-exist due to the fact that their goals generally over-lap I'm not even sure they answer to The High Lords.

I would like to see a citation for them "actively" going against the Inquisition (even Logan wasn't able to do much in the face of the Inquisition's decision to crap all over Armaggeddon for example). Yes, they may resist/ignore an order of an Inquisitor (what's t-at, sir? y--r sig-n-l is bre--ing up *click*) if they are acting completely obnoxious or asking for something ridiculous, but that's different from active opposition. More than one chapter has been excommunicated (or declared tratoris blah blah faux latin of choice blah) at an Inquisitor's order.

Maybe 'actively' isn't a good word, as it implies that they are going out to try and fight the Inquisition. There are examples of Chapters trying to counter the actions or refusing the orders of Inquisitors when they encounter each other, even killing inquisitors who medal too much.

Hrm...

Seaward wrote:
Cadian Blood's a good example.

Spoiler:

The Raven Guard likely would've been damn useful in finding the Chaos ship, but Gaius - was it Gaius? - didn't even bother to ask, aware that they had their own agenda with the Death Guard.

This is kind of a skewed example. The thing you're missing is that the Inquisitor and the 88th wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the ship without the Raven Guard "having their own agenda".

Or are you forgetting that the Raven Guard's "agenda" was to launch hit and run attacks to piss off the Death Guard and keep them from overwhelming the entry site for the search?

BluntmanDC wrote:
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?

That's simply not true. A boy just has a much higher chance to survive Astartes augmentation.

Two examples:
Leman Russ' warriors on Fenris insisted on undergoing the full augmentation procedure despite their advanced age. Many did not survive, some did.

There's a blurb in one of the Chaos Space Marine codecies from the point of view of a soldier in a rebellion. All of the survivors of that battle undergo augmentation. At least he survives to become a full marine.

Kanluwen wrote:Hrm...

Seaward wrote:
Cadian Blood's a good example.

Spoiler:

The Raven Guard likely would've been damn useful in finding the Chaos ship, but Gaius - was it Gaius? - didn't even bother to ask, aware that they had their own agenda with the Death Guard.

This is kind of a skewed example. The thing you're missing is that the Inquisitor and the 88th wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the ship without the Raven Guard "having their own agenda".

Or are you forgetting that the Raven Guard's "agenda" was to launch hit and run attacks to piss off the Death Guard and keep them from overwhelming the entry site for the search?

Even so. The boys in black didn't just come out of nowhere at the end of the story. They were around quite a bit before, and pretty clearly not subject to any of the chains of command present - Inquisitorial included.

I fully admit I haven't read every Black Library novel out there, but of the ones I have that included both Space Marines and Inquisitors, I can't recall any non-Grey Knight, non-Deathwatch Marine taking orders from an Inquisitor - nor any Inquisitor giving them orders, for that matter.

DarknessEternal wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
A space marine has to be initiated before they are adults (from fluff), so can you tell me how you think your statement makes any sense?

That's simply not true. A boy just has a much higher chance to survive Astartes augmentation.

Two examples:
Leman Russ' warriors on Fenris insisted on undergoing the full augmentation procedure despite their advanced age. Many did not survive, some did.

There's a blurb in one of the Chaos Space Marine codecies from the point of view of a soldier in a rebellion. All of the survivors of that battle undergo augmentation. At least he survives to become a full marine.

Apart from the fact that every other source backs my point and there is a difference between the augmentation process seen in many followers of primarches and the space marine augmentation process. Index Astartes has this clearly written and GW has not superceded this.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.

They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity.

Sure they have.

Except that they haven't?

Deathwatch also supports this conclusion. Marines are no more intelligent than the average Inquisitorial acolyte.

Seaward wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Hrm...

Seaward wrote:
Cadian Blood's a good example.

Spoiler:

The Raven Guard likely would've been damn useful in finding the Chaos ship, but Gaius - was it Gaius? - didn't even bother to ask, aware that they had their own agenda with the Death Guard.

This is kind of a skewed example. The thing you're missing is that the Inquisitor and the 88th wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the ship without the Raven Guard "having their own agenda".

Or are you forgetting that the Raven Guard's "agenda" was to launch hit and run attacks to piss off the Death Guard and keep them from overwhelming the entry site for the search?

Even so. The boys in black didn't just come out of nowhere at the end of the story. They were around quite a bit before, and pretty clearly not subject to any of the chains of command present - Inquisitorial included.

The Inquisition didn't get involved until the halfway point of the novel. The Raven Guard weren't around for the end or even for the majority of the story either. The only part they played/were shown to be in was advising during a planning session with a general who they felt was a pompous arse.

I fully admit I haven't read every Black Library novel out there, but of the ones I have that included both Space Marines and Inquisitors, I can't recall any non-Grey Knight, non-Deathwatch Marine taking orders from an Inquisitor - nor any Inquisitor giving them orders, for that matter.

Eisenhorn gave orders to a Marine during the Helican Disaster and another Marine during the subsequent hunt for one of the loosed Psykers. Neither of them were Grey Knights or Deathwatch. They were from the White Consuls.

Marines are, in the end, soldiers. If they don't have contradictory orders, they're probably gonna obey the ranking commander on the field, and that's what a talented Inquisitor is. Not all Inquisitors are commanders, some of them are scholars, others warriors, etc. The one thing that binds all Inquisitors is that they have the authority and iron will to protect the Imperium whatever the cost, above all other factions... be they human or Astartes.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "average Astartes" is more intelligent than your basic adept or arbites.

They haven't really demonstrated that, nor do their implants necessarily grant any intellectual capacity.

Sure they have.

Except that they haven't?

You'll need to explain why you feel that way some point.

Deathwatch also supports this conclusion. Marines are no more intelligent than the average Inquisitorial acolyte.

How does Deathwatch support that conclusion? I do so hope you don't mean in terms of the stats.


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Melissia wrote:Marines are, in the end, soldiers. If they don't have contradictory orders, they're probably gonna obey the ranking commander on the field, and that's what a talented Inquisitor is. Not all Inquisitors are commanders, some of them are scholars, others warriors, etc. The one thing that binds all Inquisitors is that they have the authority and iron will to protect the Imperium whatever the cost, above all other factions... be they human or Astartes.

I thoroughly enjoy how you simply ignored my argument against this. I'm beginning to sense that repetition equals victory in your eyes.

Yes, stats. But not just stats, also availability of skills and lores. For example, Space Marines don't have access to "Unnatural Intelligence", which doubles the intelligence modifier of the character (Similar to how Marines have Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength, which double the toughness and strength modifiers).

Nor do they have access to the Unnatural Willpower or The Indomitable Will of the Inquisition traits.

Melissia wrote:Yes, stats. But not just stats, also availability of skills and lores. For example, Space Marines don't have access to "Unnatural Intelligence", which doubles the intelligence modifier of the character (Similar to how Marines have Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength, which double the toughness and strength modifiers).

Nor do they have access to the Unnatural Willpower or The Indomitable Will of the Inquisition traits.

Do you consider the Dawn of War games to be perfectly canonical in every aspect? I ask because, much like the tabletop RPGs, they're produced under license by a third party. Not that that's the crux of my argument against basing your entire assumption on Deathwatch, of course; that would be the number of fluff/stats contradictions one can point out in 40K rules alone. Lil' thing called game mechanics trumping everything else.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, stats. But not just stats, also availability of skills and lores. For example, Space Marines don't have access to "Unnatural Intelligence", which doubles the intelligence modifier of the character (Similar to how Marines have Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength, which double the toughness and strength modifiers).

Nor do they have access to the Unnatural Willpower or The Indomitable Will of the Inquisition traits.

Do you consider the Dawn of War games to be perfectly canonical in every aspect? I ask because, much like the tabletop RPGs, they're produced under license by a third party.

Actually Dark Heresy was produced by GW and then taken over by FFG.

GW also constantly sends its writers over to write fluff for Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch.

The RPGs aren't a perfect example, as they are balanced of course (better than tabletop 40k anyway, there's still much grumblings on about the Arbites tree and a few other things), but they do show what I was saying, along with the fact that there's no actual biological reason why Marines would be smarter.

In the Horus Heresy books, I believe eidetic memory is mentioned several times as a boon of the augmentation process, although I don't recall if it was exclusive to the Thousand Sons

Omegus wrote:In the Horus Heresy books, I believe eidetic memory is mentioned several times as a boon of the augmentation process, although I don't recall if it was exclusive to the Thousand Sons

Memory is different from intelligence, but it doesn't matter. We've descended to trying to use third-party game stats to prove a point; we may as well start quoting the collected works of C.S. Goto.

Biases are always going to trump, so it's a useless argument.

As to the original question, no, it's not possible for a Space Marine to become an inquisitor in any meaningful sense - and if they did, they certainly wouldn't be leading a chapter of Marines around, at least not as part of that chapter.

Indeed. It's also a common trait of adepts/scholars (in 40k, it's something that can be trained, possibly through the same methods used to produce it in Astartes) and a trait that basically all Adeptus Mechanicus Techpriests have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

Omegus wrote:In the Horus Heresy books, I believe eidetic memory is mentioned several times as a boon of the augmentation process, although I don't recall if it was exclusive to the Thousand Sons

Memory is different from intelligence, but it doesn't matter. We've descended to trying to use third-party game stats to prove a point; we may as well start quoting the collected works of C.S. Goto.

Dark Heresy is FAR more accurate than Goto.

Actually, Dark Heresy / Deathwatch gives a far more flattering view of Marines than Goto's Dawn of War series. Goto treats Marines like forgetful retards who don't have enough strength to overpower a spore mine. Deathwatch depicts them as highly skilled and trained supersoldiers capable of incredible feats of heroism.

Melissia wrote:Dark Heresy is FAR more accurate than Goto.

Oh? I wasn't aware GW had put one above the other in terms of accuracy.

Pretty sure they haven't, come to think of it. I'll ask my question again: Do you consider the Dawn of War games to be perfectly canonical in every aspect?

I don't have to answer that, because Dark Heresy was originally worked on by GW itself, and consistently sends writers to work on its supplements. The lore within Dark Heresy is GW lore, through and through.

Lets just say no the the OP...

Melissia wrote:I don't have to answer that, because Dark Heresy was originally worked on by GW itself, and consistently sends writers to work on its supplements. The lore within Dark Heresy is GW lore, through and through.

So's the lore in Goto novels, inasmuch as Abnett's is.

Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the fluff contradicts itself all the time, and that everyone's personal opinion on anything is just that?