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Kanluwen wrote:

The problem is everyone just simply sees the kinds of threads out there regarding "The Green/Grey/Black and White/Red/Purple/Blue Space Marines" and jumps on the bandwagon.

With proper guidance and a little bit of elbow grease--Dark Angels can be made into something far more unique and interesting. They did not receive that when they were being redone. They were to be the glorious flagship launch of a revamped Space Marines line--but flopped on its face, because some of the design team didn't like it afterwards.

People don't "jump on the bandwagon", people hate the massive over representation of one of the smallest (fluffwise) factions in the game. Every marine codex has exactly the same core units and statline. Saying they could be especially unique is simply saying "they could be the biker/stealthy/angry marines". Reading your last comment, all I saw was more plasma guns and dreadnought sergeants. It doesn't matter how many things like that you can come up with, they'll still have essentially the same playing style as every other marine faction+plasma. Meanwhile literally dozens of far more unique, interesting codices could be made out of IG forces alone, not to mention things like Hrud and other small factions that could be awesome.

Kinda agree Troll, but if they are made unique, then they should be, IMO they arent unique atm and as such shouldnt have a new codex. So long as they are made different, then full steam ahead as it were.
Although you have just tried to justify the Hrud as being a faction 'large enough' to be called one (when they are far less well known/ encountered/ of them than Marines.

TrollPie wrote:t doesn't matter how many things like that you can come up with, they'll still have essentially the same playing style as every other marine faction+plasma. Meanwhile literally dozens of far more unique, interesting codices could be made out of IG forces alone, not to mention things like Hrud and other small factions that could be awesome.

Except BA don't play the same as GK who don't play the same as SW who don't play the same as CSM.

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Although you have just tried to justify the Hrud as being a faction 'large enough' to be called one (when they are far less well known/ encountered/ of them than Marines.

There's certainly more than a million of them, and each one is pretty deadly-very difficult to spot, and living in close proximity to one can cause you to age decades in the space of a few months. (source: Lexicanum)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TrollPie wrote:t doesn't matter how many things like that you can come up with, they'll still have essentially the same playing style as every other marine faction+plasma. Meanwhile literally dozens of far more unique, interesting codices could be made out of IG forces alone, not to mention things like Hrud and other small factions that could be awesome.

Except BA don't play the same as GK who don't play the same as SW who don't play the same as CSM.

But they do play the same as space marines with assault marines as troops.
They do play the same as space marines with psychic powers.
They do play the same as space marines with all heavy slots taken up by devestators.

The only thing that we know for certain is:

1.) This game doesn't need more than one space marine book because a single book with FOC swaps can mirror the same thing the older (non-5th) SM books offered.
2.) Other armies are suffering with the over-representation of marines because they go multiple editions without a codex update.
3.) That if DA were given the same attention as BA, SW, or GK they'd be just as diverse as BA, SW, or GK are now in their new book.
4.) DA are going to get their own book simply because they were given one in the past which is the only reason BA, SW, GK, and possibly BT were updated.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TrollPie wrote:t doesn't matter how many things like that you can come up with, they'll still have essentially the same playing style as every other marine faction+plasma. Meanwhile literally dozens of far more unique, interesting codices could be made out of IG forces alone, not to mention things like Hrud and other small factions that could be awesome.

Except BA don't play the same as GK who don't play the same as SW who don't play the same as CSM.

Except each relies on mostly mid-range shooting with varying emphasis on assault, have exactly the same basic statline and exactly the same core units. Contantly playing dreads, termies, razors & vindis in different combinations with mounds of 3+ armour gets really boring. Besides, you could get much more variety with IG, Daemons etc where you have hundreds of planets/minor Gods each with less standardised equipment and unique units that aren't "vanilla unit +1!!!1!"

TrollPie wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Although you have just tried to justify the Hrud as being a faction 'large enough' to be called one (when they are far less well known/ encountered/ of them than Marines.

There's certainly more than a million of them, and each one is pretty deadly-very difficult to spot, and living in close proximity to one can cause you to age decades in the space of a few months. (source: Lexicanum)

Well it actually says 'premature aging' but OK.
There is no mention of numbers (apart from stating that they were 'all but wiped out', and now 'widely infest certain areas of the Galaxy', again no mention of numbers), i am not saying there arent more than a million (or the 1-2 mil that has recently been discussed), but theres no definitive answer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nvs wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TrollPie wrote:t doesn't matter how many things like that you can come up with, they'll still have essentially the same playing style as every other marine faction+plasma. Meanwhile literally dozens of far more unique, interesting codices could be made out of IG forces alone, not to mention things like Hrud and other small factions that could be awesome.

Except BA don't play the same as GK who don't play the same as SW who don't play the same as CSM.

But they do play the same as space marines with assault marines as troops.
They do play the same as space marines with psychic powers.
They do play the same as space marines with all heavy slots taken up by devestators.

APart from all their unique rules and units you mean?

The only thing that we know for certain is:

1.) This game doesn't need more than one space marine book because a single book with FOC swaps can mirror the same thing the older (non-5th) SM books offered.
2.) Other armies are suffering with the over-representation of marines because they go multiple editions without a codex update.

True, no question, but thats not really an answer. The SMs are the Poster boys of 40k, they will always be garnished with attention. Its a shame the other races arent as well granted.

3.) That if DA were given the same attention as BA, SW, or GK they'd be just as diverse as BA, SW, or GK are now in their new book.

But you just said they arent diverse

4.) DA are going to get their own book simply because they were given one in the past which is the only reason BA, SW, GK, and possibly BT were updated.

As above. They are all totally different to Codex Marines, thats kinda the point.

I've said from the very beginning in this thread and many of the others that I hate the idea of 6 different marine books, that I think this game is harmed/hindered by it and players pay the price.

But I've also always said from the very beginning in this thread and many others that the only reason DA don't have anything unique is because their codex is so old and that none of the other books offered anything to warrant their own books until very recently (5th SW book). And that if DA get the same attention as the others, as they no doubt will (and arguably should), they'll be one of the most unique SM codex available.

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

TrollPie wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TrollPie wrote:t doesn't matter how many things like that you can come up with, they'll still have essentially the same playing style as every other marine faction+plasma. Meanwhile literally dozens of far more unique, interesting codices could be made out of IG forces alone, not to mention things like Hrud and other small factions that could be awesome.

Except BA don't play the same as GK who don't play the same as SW who don't play the same as CSM.

Except each relies on mostly mid-range shooting with varying emphasis on assault, have exactly the same basic statline and exactly the same core units. Constantly playing dreads, termies, razors & vindis in different combinations with mounds of 3+ armour gets really boring.

Here's an idea then: complain to your group, not us. Introducing the problem to your group will help you find a solution. We, as the Internet, cannot solve your dilemma.

Besides, you could get much more variety with IG, Daemons etc where you have hundreds of planets/minor Gods each with less standardised equipment and unique units that aren't "vanilla unit +1!!!1!"

There's not really such a thing as "minor Gods" in 40k. There's just various Daemons who've ascended to a level where one might consider them as "minor gods".

And you're not going to get "much more variety with IG", simply because the equipment is in fact, standardized . Autoguns have roughly the same penetrative power as lasguns, just like a local variant of the battlecannon on a Leman Russ is going to be using the same stats as a normal Leman Russ.
At best, what you're going to get is "Flying Guard", "Walker Guard", "Tank Guard", and "APC Guard". And then we'll hear the exact same complaints, just swapping Valkyries/Vendettas for Razorbacks/Vindicators et al.

By the by, Hrud as an "army idea" is worse than the Jokaero getting a full list of their own. The Hrud aren't fighters. They aren't really anything except simply existing and scavengers.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

But company veterans are NOT stern/vanguard. They exist PER company instead of being first company only. In fact, since the first company is Deathwing, DA don't have anything like stern/vanguard. Kan pretty much already mentioned this.

Which would be a problem with blanket special characters. Allowing a special character in C:SM to take terminators as troops does not in any way represent the real Deathwing (no sg/vg) without having a bunch of rules like "But with this character you may not field etc."

CrazyThang wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

But company veterans are NOT stern/vanguard. They exist PER company instead of being first company only. In fact, since the first company is Deathwing, DA don't have anything like stern/vanguard. Kan pretty much already mentioned this.

I am well aware of this, but the introduction of Sternguard and Vanguard pretty much rules out the need for Company Veterans IMO. What do the Company Veterans do that isnt covered by one or the other?
Yeah maybe the DA can keep their 'normal' Veterans and that can be unique for them, but how in any way does this change what company they are from?

Revenent Reiko wrote:Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Honestly, until the 4th ed WD list, the only thing that differentiated BA from Codex Chapters was Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and Vets with Jump Packs(and that was only intro'd in 3rd). It wasn't until relatively recently that they became more divergent than Dark Angels with regards to unique units and organization.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

But company veterans are NOT stern/vanguard. They exist PER company instead of being first company only. In fact, since the first company is Deathwing, DA don't have anything like stern/vanguard. Kan pretty much already mentioned this.

I am well aware of this, but the introduction of Sternguard and Vanguard pretty much rules out the need for Company Veterans IMO. What do the Company Veterans do that isnt covered by one or the other?
Yeah maybe the DA can keep their 'normal' Veterans and that can be unique for them, but how in any way does this change what company they are from?

Not sure I understand. DA literally do not have stern/vanguard. That and the fact that stern/vanguard are 1st company only and company veterans exist in every company.

I actually think I see. You are saying you could still take stern/vanguard and just call them veterans, yes?

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Honestly, until the 4th ed WD list, the only thing that differentiated BA from Codex Chapters was Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and Vets with Jump Packs(and that was only intro'd in 3rd). It wasn't until relatively recently that they became more divergent than Dark Angels with regards to unique units and organization.

I know, well that and Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests and.. something else i cant remember, damn!

BUt then DA only have Deathwing, Ravenwing and Company Veterans...

Revenent Reiko wrote:

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Company Veterans are not covered by Sternguard and Vanguard.

The Deathwing is an Inner Circle, entirely sworn to the task of eradicating the Fallen and purging the slight upon the Dark Angels' honor. They're also not ascended to the position simply by dint of experience. They're ascended to the position by dint of trust.

The Ravenwing is, for all intents and purposes, the Dark Angels' Scout Company. Unlike other Chapters where Land Speeders, Bikes, etc are all part of individual Companies--the Ravenwing has them all grouped into a single formation that can be deployed at once. They're also, again, not simply given the position because of experience. They're given it because they're trusted enough to actively seek out a corrupting and insulting force upon the Dark Angels' honor.

This alone is not the only "divergence".

Company Veterans are COMPANY VETERANS. They are not veterans from the First Company doled out as necessary to Companies going to war. They are a cadre of veterans, permanently within the Company, who help train and indoctrinate their fellow brothers into the mysteries of the Dark Angels' Inner Circle. Many of these Company Veterans have been at one point or another within the Deathwing or Ravenwing and are highly trusted individuals.

If the Space Wolves can be considered 'unique' because of the "Wolf Guard", then I'd say the Company Veterans are a FAR FAR more interesting version of veterans.
The Dark Angels are also one of the few Chapters where Librarians regularly lead forces, or where ostensibly the Master of Recruits can outrank a Captain due to the Master of Recruits being higher within the Inner Circle. Seeing a "Scout-Captain" and being able to field a shooty hero who would be y'know...unique.

I could go on, but I'd be getting into theorizing off mentions of small things within recent books and dropped hints.

Kanluwen wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

And I'd certainly rank DA at the very top next to space wolves as being the most divergent chapter and warranting their own book. Certainly more than BA or BT. GK I've never liked so won't get into it.

Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Company Veterans are not covered by Sternguard and Vanguard.

The Deathwing is an Inner Circle, entirely sworn to the task of eradicating the Fallen and purging the slight upon the Dark Angels' honor. They're also not ascended to the position simply by dint of experience. They're ascended to the position by dint of trust.

The Ravenwing is, for all intents and purposes, the Dark Angels' Scout Company. Unlike other Chapters where Land Speeders, Bikes, etc are all part of individual Companies--the Ravenwing has them all grouped into a single formation that can be deployed at once. They're also, again, not simply given the position because of experience. They're given it because they're trusted enough to actively seek out a corrupting and insulting force upon the Dark Angels' honor.

This alone is not the only "divergence".

Company Veterans are COMPANY VETERANS. They are not veterans from the First Company doled out as necessary to Companies going to war. They are a cadre of veterans, permanently within the Company, who help train and indoctrinate their fellow brothers into the mysteries of the Dark Angels' Inner Circle. Many of these Company Veterans have been at one point or another within the Deathwing or Ravenwing and are highly trusted individuals.

I know all this Kan, and im not disputing it.

If the Space Wolves can be considered 'unique' because of the "Wolf Guard", then I'd say the Company Veterans are a FAR FAR more interesting version of veterans.
The Dark Angels are also one of the few Chapters where Librarians regularly lead forces, or where ostensibly the Master of Recruits can outrank a Captain due to the Master of Recruits being higher within the Inner Circle. Seeing a "Scout-Captain" and being able to field a shooty hero who would be y'know...unique.

This i didnt know, thanks

I could go on, but I'd be getting into theorizing off mentions of small things within recent books and dropped hints.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Honestly, until the 4th ed WD list, the only thing that differentiated BA from Codex Chapters was Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and Vets with Jump Packs(and that was only intro'd in 3rd). It wasn't until relatively recently that they became more divergent than Dark Angels with regards to unique units and organization.

I know, well that and Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests and.. something else i cant remember, damn!

BUt then DA only have Deathwing, Ravenwing and Company Veterans...

Which still fundamentally changes how the chapter works in terms of what you can take. Just like BTs mixing neophytes and initiates, just like SWs taking terminators as sergeants, just like... I don't know much about the newest BA 'dex actually.

EDIT:

Kan is giving far more information that I >.< I should have mentioned the trust as opposed to pure veterancy as well.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Honestly, until the 4th ed WD list, the only thing that differentiated BA from Codex Chapters was Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and Vets with Jump Packs(and that was only intro'd in 3rd). It wasn't until relatively recently that they became more divergent than Dark Angels with regards to unique units and organization.

I know, well that and Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests and.. something else i cant remember, damn!

BUt then DA only have Deathwing, Ravenwing and Company Veterans...

Honor guard were a Command squad with jump packs, Sanguinary priests were Apothecaries. I forgot they also had the Baal. But ALL of those were added in 3rd to justify them getting their own book.

I didn't count the Company Vets when I stated that because, unlike the BA, the DA had no units added to give them a codex in 3rd. Everything in their 3rd ed book was simply taken from their 2nd ed book. GW literally had to pull out new things to make BA different enough for a new book, they didn't for DA.

CrazyThang wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Honestly, until the 4th ed WD list, the only thing that differentiated BA from Codex Chapters was Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and Vets with Jump Packs(and that was only intro'd in 3rd). It wasn't until relatively recently that they became more divergent than Dark Angels with regards to unique units and organization.

I know, well that and Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests and.. something else i cant remember, damn!

BUt then DA only have Deathwing, Ravenwing and Company Veterans...

Which still fundamentally changes how the chapter works in terms of what you can take. Just like BTs mixing neophytes and initiates, just like SWs taking terminators as sergeants, just like... I don't know much about the newest BA 'dex actually.

I know it does, i already said ages ago that they need their Characters to allow the DW and RW to be taken as Troops or something (ie changing what you can take etc.)


I actually want some ideas from people for how to make them unique as a 'Dex, because right now i cant justify it in my own mind (yeah fair enough im nothing whatsoever to do with GW's Codex writing team but still )

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:Really, how come?
Since other than the Deathwing and Ravenwing, they are a Codex Chapter (please correct me if im wrong, and i dont mean Company Veterans btw, they are covered by Sternguard and VV)...

Honestly, until the 4th ed WD list, the only thing that differentiated BA from Codex Chapters was Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and Vets with Jump Packs(and that was only intro'd in 3rd). It wasn't until relatively recently that they became more divergent than Dark Angels with regards to unique units and organization.

I know, well that and Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests and.. something else i cant remember, damn!

BUt then DA only have Deathwing, Ravenwing and Company Veterans...

Honor guard were a Command squad with jump packs, Sanguinary priests were Apothecaries. I forgot they also had the Baal. But ALL of those were added in 3rd to justify them getting their own book.

I didn't count the Company Vets when I stated that because, unlike the BA, the DA had no units added to give them a codex in 3rd. Everything in their 3rd ed book was simply taken from their 2nd ed book. GW literally had to pull out new things to make BA different enough for a new book, they didn't for DA.

And 4th added Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes, Librarians with different powers than vanilla marines, and interrogator chaplains. Not to mention the lack of some C:SM options.

Ahhh the Baal,thats what i forgot. Thank You Platuan4th!

Revenent Reiko wrote:
I know it does, i already said ages ago that they need their Characters to allow the DW and RW to be taken as Troops or something (ie changing what you can take etc.)


I actually want some ideas from people for how to make them unique as a 'Dex, because right now i cant justify it in my own mind (yeah fair enough im nothing whatsoever to do with GW's Codex writing team but still )

But taking them as troops doesn't a Deathwing make.

Kanluwen wrote:
Here's an idea then: complain to your group, not us. Introducing the problem to your group will help you find a solution. We, as the Internet, cannot solve your dilemma.

It's not quite as simple as your local group. People who have an SM army can have difficulty finding games if everyone is tired of playing them, and people aren't exactly willing to invest hundreds of pounds on a new army, or using an army they don't play anymore due to being outdated/boring to them if they're told the group needs more variety. In tournies or events, where you have little control over who you play, the experience is a whole lot worse when you're constantly hopping from playing marines 1 to marines 2.

Besides, you could get much more variety with IG, Daemons etc where you have hundreds of planets/minor Gods each with less standardised equipment and unique units that aren't "vanilla unit +1!!!1!"

There's not really such a thing as "minor Gods" in 40k. There's just various Daemons who've ascended to a level where one might consider them as "minor gods".

And you're not going to get "much more variety with IG", simply because the equipment is in fact, standardized . Autoguns have roughly the same penetrative power as lasguns, just like a local variant of the battlecannon on a Leman Russ is going to be using the same stats as a normal Leman Russ.
At best, what you're going to get is "Flying Guard", "Walker Guard", "Tank Guard", and "APC Guard". And then we'll hear the exact same complaints, just swapping Valkyries/Vendettas for Razorbacks/Vindicators et al.

I was just using them as an example to explain how other factions could have as much or more variety than SM variants if they got mini-dexes, without being drastically over represented when compared with their size in the fluff.

By the by, Hrud as an "army idea" is worse than the Jokaero getting a full list of their own. The Hrud aren't fighters. They aren't really anything except simply existing and scavengers.

Again, I'm simply using an example of a minor alien race that could be given a completely unique codex, if GW decided not to use an already overrused faction for a new army idea.

Revenent Reiko wrote:I actually want some ideas from people for how to make them unique as a 'Dex, because right now i cant justify it in my own mind (yeah fair enough im nothing whatsoever to do with GW's Codex writing team but still )

Ah, ok.

Taking cues from GW's past:

A new type of HQ(Kan's Scout-Captain fills that nicely)

Mortis Dreads(and not just Riflemen, I mean ALL variants)

Put in the Land Speeder Tempest as a new Fast Attack 'Flyer' for Ravenwing

A new Land Raider variant designed for the Death Wing, maybe even one designed for dedicated long range anti-tank

Give the DW the Plasmablaster as a heavy choice

Elite slots Librarians(like BA Chappies and Sanguinary Priests)

CrazyThang wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
I know it does, i already said ages ago that they need their Characters to allow the DW and RW to be taken as Troops or something (ie changing what you can take etc.)


I actually want some ideas from people for how to make them unique as a 'Dex, because right now i cant justify it in my own mind (yeah fair enough im nothing whatsoever to do with GW's Codex writing team but still )

But taking them as troops doesn't a Deathwing make.

True, but i did say 'or something'. As it stands, what else makes up the Deathwing then? (in fluff if not in game)

CrazyThang wrote:

And 4th added Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes, Librarians with different powers than vanilla marines, and interrogator chaplains. Not to mention the lack of some C:SM options.

Umm, no, it didn't. The 2nd ed book had Ravenwing bikes, Interrogator Chaplain, and Deathwing Terminators. They even had different rules than the Blood Angels versions that were in the SAME BOOK.

As for the different powers than Codex Marines, every variant chapter in 3rd ed with Librarians had different powers(Salamanders had Fury of the Ancients, DA had Weaken Resolve, Blood Angels had Quickening).

Stop arguing something you apparently know nothing about.

I've always been a fan of allowing Deathwing squads to actually take a low level character in lieu of a Sergeant.

Something like a Librarian with a single, 'minor' power or a Deathwing 'Champion'.

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:I actually want some ideas from people for how to make them unique as a 'Dex, because right now i cant justify it in my own mind (yeah fair enough im nothing whatsoever to do with GW's Codex writing team but still )

Ah, ok.

Taking cues from GW's past:

A new type of HQ(Kan's Scout-Captain fills that nicely)

Mortis Dreads(and not just Riflemen, I mean ALL variants)

Put in the Land Speeder Tempest as a new Fast Attack 'Flyer' for Ravenwing

Yes to all of the above.
The Mortis Dread if nothing else should really be improved upon for the DA (having all the options i mean)

A new Land Raider variant designed for the Death Wing, maybe even one designed for dedicated long range anti-tank

LR Ultra? (sp?)or the Godhammer surely both fulfill this role?
But they should be allowed to take them yes. (im right in thinking they cant right now yes?)

Give the DW the Plasmablaster as a heavy choice

Elite slots Librarians(like BA Chappies and Sanguinary Priests)

Yes to both again.
Thanks for the ideas

Platuan4th wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

And 4th added Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes, Librarians with different powers than vanilla marines, and interrogator chaplains. Not to mention the lack of some C:SM options.

Umm, no, it didn't. The 2nd ed book had Ravenwing bikes, Interrogator Chaplain, and Deathwing Terminators. They even had different rules than the Blood Angels version that were in the SAME BOOK.

In that case, that supports my argument even better (having already had unique stuff).

The Deathwing in fluff.

As Kan mentioned, simply being a veteran does not get you into the Deathwing. You must be a HIGHLY trusted brother, as to join the Deathwing is to learn the truth of Luther, the betrayal of their chapter, and the hunt for the fallen.

The Deathwing also fight exclusively in terminator armor. All venerable dreadnoughts are in the Deathwing (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost 100% sure I read that >.< ). I'm actually not sure about Land Raiders and how they fit in.

They do not have the normal structure of a first company. They are 20 5 man terminator squads with Belial and his command squad (apoth, standard bearer, and interrogator chaplain) at its head.


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Platuan4th wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

And 4th added Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes, Librarians with different powers than vanilla marines, and interrogator chaplains. Not to mention the lack of some C:SM options.

Umm, no, it didn't. The 2nd ed book had Ravenwing bikes, Interrogator Chaplain, and Deathwing Terminators. They even had different rules than the Blood Angels versions that were in the SAME BOOK.

As for the different powers than Codex Marines, every variant chapter in 3rd ed with Librarians had different powers(Salamanders had Fury of the Ancients, DA had Weaken Resolve, Blood Angels had Quickening).

Stop arguing something you apparently know nothing about.

Really? Oh no I didn't play in 2nd edition. Sue me.