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It is my opinion that the Dark Angels desperately need either a new codex or a rules update. Their rules are currently extremely outmatched by other codexes, and this gives us the disadvantage in most battles(except against the Ultra Marines. An example of the comparison of our rules to another new codex is basically any new Space Marine codex. They all have new units, and even though those units are better than ours, they still cost less than some of our units that are terrible compared to them. Then we go to a different codex, the new Grey Knights. Now, before I say anything, I must admit that they have some pretty cool models( although the nemesis dread could use some getting rid of the servos). They have(YES!!) epic Terminators. Our Terminators are 43 points each, and do almost nothing special apart from having a pretty epic Company Master. Their Terminators( correct me if I am wrong here) are 46 points per model, but are a heluva lot better than ours. They can upgrade, for a few points,to paladins, becomIng epic tools of destruction. And let's not forget about their leader. Anyways, I think it's about time that we get a new Codex.

Do DA deserve a new codex? Yes.
Should DA get a new codex? No.
Should any SM chapter have their own dex? No.

That said, DA are going to be a very hard job for GW seeing as how the army has no real identity left. The bike and terminator theme is available to nearly every army now and that is all they have going for them.

Now granted a lot of the other books didn't have anything substantial going for them either before their 5th edition books, but is the status quo enough of a reason to continue releasing 6 marine books every edition when GW clearly can't manage a single update for every codex for every edition as it is?

We have DE have have just got one 3 editions and 10 years later.

We have Necrons, Tau, Sisters, BT, and DA that are all on the verge of missing 5th edition. Sisters missed out on 4th too. It's a safe bet that if they didn't spend 3/4 of their cycle time working on imperial forces, these books wouldn't go 5-10 years without an update.

all that said, I voted yes simply because if GW is going to update all of the others, DA deserver theirs too.

The deathwing portion of the book doesn't need any more updating. The ravenwing part probably could use it. The rest of the book desperately needs it.

No, they just need 3 or 4 characters made part of the Codex Space Marine characters.

DarknessEternal wrote:No, they just need 3 or 4 characters made part of the Codex Space Marine characters.

This, sorry DA players, i love your fluff (most of it anyway), but everything you can do, C:SM can do better (except Deathwing AFAIK, that needs to be an added feature).

Claiming that SS/Cyclone FNP scoring termies are somehow bad feels a tad overdone. Claiming that no variant Marine Codex should exist without backing it up with arguments is, while common, in complete contrast to how one should conduct in a constructive discussion.

Back on topic, I think it'd be for the best if neither the Templars nor the Angels got a new Codex before 6th hits. The FAQs are enough to let us get by without getting a new dex that would only get out of date after a short while anyway, much like the current DA dex. With the BT/DA FAQ and the incoming SoB WD update, I get the feeling that GW might actually be learning from Fantasy, updating armies to the new edition with FAQs and PDFs. In my opinion this is a good trend, as it'll, if done properly, prevent any army from ever being as far behind as the current Necron dex.

Honestly the Deathwing and Ravenwing could be very easily made into two special characters in the Space marine codex.


I would rather see a Space Marine codex with more special characters that are NOT Ultras.
Ultras should have at most 2 special characters, the rest should be other 1st founding chapters, like the Iron Hands.


Belial makes terminators and assault terminators troops and Terminators trade Combat Tactics for Fearless. He can take a special terminator command squad.

Sammy makes bikes troops and Bikes/Attack bikes trade combat tactics for Scouts. There already is a bike command squad, they gain scouts too.

DONE.

Everything else DA is represented just fine by the rest of the codex as the other 8 Companies (mostly) follow the codex.

To be completely serious, I think that I would probably be fine if they put the Dark Angels specials into the Marine codex. I only have a problem with the other chapters that have their own codexes when they are soooooooo much better. And I also believe that they should do some updating with the Ravenwing and possibly the Librarians and Company Masters. And yes, they need to have a more varied H.Q choice in the marine codex and not like 20 Ultrarines choices(thanks svendrex).

As an afterthought, is I allowed to combine my codex with the regular SM codex?

There has easily been at least 10 threads on this topic in the last month. Should they? Yes, of course, they've had codices for a long time now, people who play an out of date army can cry all they want, the fact of the matter is that they will get a new one.

Something you guys need to keep in mind when making the comment of special character swaps for the DA is that you could have done the same thing with all of the books before they got their 5th edition things.

Space Wolf HQ: Doesn't count as an HQ, tactical marines get +1 attack.

Blood Angels HQ: Assault Marines are jump infantry and Veterans count as jump infantry for no additional cost.

Black Templar HQ: 1-10 scouts may join a tactical squad.

You get the general idea. This is all the other books really had going for them before their 5th edition updates and if you're going to continue to see SW, BT, GK, etc then we should continue to see DA.

But hopefully we wont see anything but Codex Astartes in 6th.

Yeah, those suggestions totally wouldn't make a mockery of the differing modus operandi of different Chapters that even the CSM Codex would recoil from in disgust. /sarcasm

What did SW have in their 3rd edition codex that set them apart from CSM?

What did BA have in their 3rd edition codex that set them apart from CSM?

What did BT have in their 3rd edition codex that set them apart from CSM?

Like I said, until recently, these armies didn't have enough to warrant their own books and they only got them because of 2nd edition. But if we're going to flesh out BA, BT, GK, and SW, then I would hope they'd flesh out DA too.

They either need a new 'dex, or some special characters in White Dwarf and a little paragraph saying 'these may be taken in a Codex: Space Marines army as HQ choices.'

It would also put something useful in White Dwarf.

I voted no. I love the fluff, but, as has been said, they're just another SM codex that leaves far more unique codexes *coughNecronscoughTaucough* even more outdated.

Nvs wrote:What did SW have in their 3rd edition codex that set them apart from CSM?

0-1 Leman Russ Exterminator, Wolf Scouts, 0-4 HQs, HQ Dreads, army wide wacky rules, etc so on. Check out the codex.

What did BA have in their 3rd edition codex that set them apart from CSM?

Black rage, Death Company, etc so on.

What did BT have in their 3rd edition codex that set them apart from CSM?

First LR Crusader, vows, neophytes, army wide wacky rules.

Like I said, until recently, these armies didn't have enough to warrant their own books and they only got them because of 2nd edition.

Umm. No. BA had 2nd, 3rd and 4th (WD) codexes. (3.5 codexes counting 5th)
SW had 2nd and 3rd codexes. (3 codexes counting 5th)
BT started in 3rd as their own list in Codex: Arma and then got a 4th Ed codex. (2 codexes)

But if we're going to flesh out BA, BT, GK, and SW, then I would hope they'd flesh out DA too.

Though to be fair, DA had 2nd, 3rd and 4th codexes. So DA is actually ahead of the game, since they've gotten three codexes and BT only have had two.

Can a mod just delete this or merge it with the thread 1 or 2 pages back? DA are eventually getting a new codex no matter what anyone wants, marine dexes simply make GW too much money for that not to happen. But this topic has been done to death with both sides just feeling annoyed afterward.

svendrex wrote:Honestly the Deathwing and Ravenwing could be very easily made into two special characters in the Space marine codex.


I would rather see a Space Marine codex with more special characters that are NOT Ultras.

You do realize that excluding Calgar(who in reality is a 'unique' character, no matter how you try to spin it)--the rest of the "Ultras characters" were, just like the Imperial Guard characters meant to be a framework for counts-as characters of your own design yeah?

You had Chronus, who could easily be any experienced tank commander.
You had Sicarius, who could easily be any experienced field commander.
You had Telion, who could easily be any experienced or legendary Scout.
and so on and so forth

Ultras should have at most 2 special characters, the rest should be other 1st founding chapters, like the Iron Hands.

The Iron Hands 'character' is supposed to be The Master of the Forge.

Since y'know, they don't really like individuality and all. That's not meant to be a cop-out, but it's pretty much something that's true. The Iron Hands, from all the fluff available on them right now, just do not like anyone to really be 'too different'. They find that 'The Flesh Is Weak' and are very much like the Mechanicus in that they get rid of identifying features early on.

Really, all the Iron Hands needed was a return of their ability to put Terminator Sergeants into standard Tactical Squads and thunderhammers, etc.

Belial makes terminators and assault terminators troops and Terminators trade Combat Tactics for Fearless. He can take a special terminator command squad.

Except the Deathwing as it stands are only given 5 man squads so they could have Fearless.

They're also disallowed Transports, which is another issue but eh.

Sammy makes bikes troops and Bikes/Attack bikes trade combat tactics for Scouts. There already is a bike command squad, they gain scouts too.

Sammael and Belial were a big mistake to actually name them. Now everyone thinks they're supposed to be one-shot characters, rather than the placeholders that they were meant to be.

Oh well. Everyone thinks they can "fix" DA by just putting them into C: SM. That's not the problem. The problem is a combination of things, addressing it in the next response.

DONE.

Everything else DA is represented just fine by the rest of the codex as the other 8 Companies (mostly) follow the codex.

No, they don't actually.
Every Company has a veteran contingent. There are veteran scouts. There are veteran devastators. There are veteran assaulters, there are veteran tacticals, et al.

There's a reason the Dark Angels codex didn't have "Veterans" but "Company Veterans". You don't 'ascend' to the First Company or Second Company because of veterancy, necessarily.

You do it because of trust. That's the whole reason all the "Inner Circle" characters had the 'Deathwing' trait in the previous book.

However, as has been mentioned:
The reason "everything else DA is represented just fine by the rest of the codex"?

Because the vanilla Codex was done after Dark Angels, and Dark Angels was meant to be them trying something 'new' for Space Marine armies. It did not carry through.

Okay let me just put it this way.

I would rather see the CSM book divided into 2 books to better represent the fighting style of all nine Traitor Legions than to have another loyalist marine book with new invented differences.
(essentially a God Specific Cult Marine book, and a Chaos Undivided Marines+Human Cultists book)

In a perfect world, I would not mind having both, but GW has limited time to work on stuff.



What I meant was I would like to see more special characters with unique Combat Tactics, rather than the kinda bland Ultra Characters. For example an Iron hands character that Trades Combat tactics for something that represents Bionics (limited FNP or an INV save maybe?)

I know that the ultras do not have to be painted blue, but I would rather have special characters that changed up the play style than just being an extra good Chaplain for a few more points.




Company veterans can be represented by the Command squad, Sternguard, and Vanguard units. Yes they do not have the correct name, but that is what I meant by "Represents"
Veteran scouts, can not be represented, but they were also taken out of the Space Marine and Blood Angel books.


To put it simply, the biggest difference that the DA have are the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, which could be represented by a special character and some Combat tactics.
Everything else is very close to the Standard Codex organization (not exactly, but close enough that you could still play a fluffy list)

Of course they could invent all kinds of new stuff to make the DA different, but again I would rather they took away a separate DA book so they could make 2 CSM books.

I vote no. Dark Angels would be SM Codex number 5 since 5th Edition. Time and resources would be better spent in a Tau, Necron, Ork, Eldar or Chaos Space Marines Codex. Frankly, even a Squat codex would be more welcome than Over-powered, fluff-ignoring, ridiculously-named Space Marines part 5.

TEMPERUS MAXIMUS wrote:I vote no. Dark Angels would be SM Codex number 5 since 5th Edition. Time and resources would be better spent in a Tau, Necron, Ork, Eldar or Chaos Space Marines Codex. Frankly, even a Squat codex would be more welcome than Over-powered, fluff-ignoring, ridiculously-named Space Marines part 5.

Want some cheese?

Orks are in a much better position than DA at the moment, the Necrons are up next and the Chaos Space Marines are still Marines. I won't even bother with the "OP" part as it is blatantly false.

yep

I don't know how his OP comment was 'blatantly false' while the 3 most recent marine books are all ranked among the top 5 books in power rankings by players.

And it needs to be said again, that DA deserve a book for the same reasons that SW, BT, BA, and GK did/do. None of them offered much of anything until they were redone. It's safe to assume DA could/would/should get the same treatment.

Do Dark Angels need a new Codex?
Yes

Do Dark Angels need a new Codex NOW?
Probably not. FAQ made me perfectly playable again until their time comes.

Nvs wrote:I don't know how his OP comment was 'blatantly false' while the 3 most recent marine books are all ranked among the top 5 books in power rankings by players.

Overpowered is not the same thing as powerful. The fact that 5 out of the 6 most recent books are the most highly ranked suggests that this isn't something unique to marine books, but rather that GW is learning how to make good rules for 5th edition.

As a Dark Angels player, I feel that while we would benefit from a new codex just so that our models are competitively priced compared to the newer Codices (the proper spelling for the plural of Codex btw), I don't think we need a new Codex anywhere near as badly as Chaos Space Marines (which I also play), Tau, Eldar and Necrons. I would like to see GW give more time to non-Imperial armies, especially since 6 of the 8 Codices they have updated for 5th edition have been Imperial armies. The FAQ went a long way towards making Dark Angels and Black Templar more competitive in the current edition and those players can ride the FAQs until they eventually get a new book.

Also, the arguments for a single Space Marine codex would remove nearly all individuality from the non Codex Astartes chapters and homogenize what should be a rich and varied feel to the armies, both in story and how they are played. There is a reason they aren't currently all wrapped up in the C:SM Codex and it should stay that way. Just because you can take Korsarro Khan and field a White Scars biker army does not make them a Ravenwing equivalent just as a Terminator Captain allowing Terminator Troops would not make them a Deathwing army. You can draw similar conclusions for Blood Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves. In fact, ask a Space Wolf player how he would enjoy having his Codex options rolled into a single C:SM book, see how well that goes over.

Zweischneid wrote:Do Dark Angels need a new Codex?
Yes

Do Dark Angels need a new Codex NOW?
Probably not. FAQ made me perfectly playable again until their time comes.

This isn't true.
The FAQ made Deathwing and Ravenwing 'perfectly playable again until the time comes'.

But as has been stated repeatedly: Deathwing and Ravenwing are not necessarily the only 'unique' part that could be done with Dark Angels.

The problem is everyone just simply sees the kinds of threads out there regarding "The Green/Grey/Black and White/Red/Purple/Blue Space Marines" and jumps on the bandwagon.

With proper guidance and a little bit of elbow grease--Dark Angels can be made into something far more unique and interesting. They did not receive that when they were being redone. They were to be the glorious flagship launch of a revamped Space Marines line--but flopped on its face, because some of the design team didn't like it afterwards.

And quite frankly the constant saying of "I'd rather see the CSM book divided into 2 books to 'better represent the fighting style of all 9 Traitor Legions'." is a logical fallacy.

Two books would not cover the "fighting styles of all 9 Traitor Legions". It can, to be perfectly blunt, be done in one. Do you know why?
Because their fighting styles are not all that different. The only things that really separate the Alpha Legion from the Word Bearers is the methodology of their infiltrations.
The only thing that separates the Night Lords from the Iron Warriors is that they don't field artillery, but instead rely upon orbital assets and sabotage for their sieges.
The differences between the Black Legion and Red Corsairs are practically nonexistent as well. They both are forces where literally anything and everything within the scope and breadth of the forces of Chaos can be found. Traitor Guard, cultists, daemons, Cult troops, et al.

The list goes on and on. But yet, what would make them work for "2 or more books"?
Fluff and fleshing them out.

Which is exactly what Dark Angels needed, but did not get.

What sort of unique things would the Dark Angels have? Honest questions here, not being a jerk.


Unique Psy-powers.

Interrogator Chaplains (How are they different on the tabletop from normal chaplains?)

Mortis Dreads (Dreads with 2 shooting arms, like the 2x Auto cannon dread that everyone loves)

Extra Plasma stuff?

Company veterans (Again, how would they be different on the table top from Vanguard and Sterguard)

Fleet Based Chapter (extra Skimmers or Orbital assault rules, but if everyone gets the Storm Raven, then that might cover this role)

Would normal DA marines have some special rule to represent their hunt for the fallen? What could that rule be? (Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines or something else)


Is there anything else in the DA fluff already that makes them different?
What sort of stuff would fit their theme to make them more different?

We need Belial and Azrael added as special characters in the next marine codex that let you take termies and bikes as troops respectively.

Oh my, did I just condense most of the Dark Angels' original flair into two character entries on a sheet of A4? Yeah, I did...

Henners91 wrote:We need Belial and Azrael added as special characters in the next marine codex that let you take termies and bikes as troops respectively.

Oh my, did I just condense most of the Dark Angels' original flair into two character entries on a sheet of A4? Yeah, I did...

Well you forgot that its Sammael who is the Master of the Ravenwing......

svendrex wrote:What sort of unique things would the Dark Angels have? Honest questions here, not being a jerk.


Unique Psy-powers.

Interrogator Chaplains (How are they different on the tabletop from normal chaplains?)

Mortis Dreads (Dreads with 2 shooting arms, like the 2x Auto cannon dread that everyone loves)

Extra Plasma stuff?

Company veterans (Again, how would they be different on the table top from Vanguard and Sterguard)

Fleet Based Chapter (extra Skimmers or Orbital assault rules, but if everyone gets the Storm Raven, then that might cover this role)

Would normal DA marines have some special rule to represent their hunt for the fallen? What could that rule be? (Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines or something else)


Is there anything else in the DA fluff already that makes them different?
What sort of stuff would fit their theme to make them more different?

I've given ideas before, pages worth of them in fact. Things like making them the "artifact" book, where you can field repeater plasma guns on Terminator heavy weapon mounts, Dreadnoughts as leaders for Deathwing squads, etc. There's a lot that can be done--the problem is simply DOING IT. If it's done in a fairly good way, the book can effectively become a home for 'counts as' Iron Hands, Heresy/Crusade era forces, et al.

And by the by, despite being a fleet based Chapter and well-known for precision strikes and having pinpoint accuracy for their bombardments...they have not a single character with Orbital Bombardments within the book. And for some stupid reason, Azrael Master of the bloody Unforgiven Chapters, as in every single one of the Dark Angels Successors as well as the Dark Angels themselves answer to him, cannot take Deathwing Terminators as troops. Despite him clearly being the head of the Deathwing Order and Inner Circle both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:We need Abaddon and Kharn added as special characters in the next marine codex that let you take CCWs and Terminators with combiweapons as troops respectively.

Oh my, did I just condense most of the Chaos Book's original flair into two character entries on a sheet of A4? Yeah, I did...

Fixed.