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Revenent Reiko wrote:

A new Land Raider variant designed for the Death Wing, maybe even one designed for dedicated long range anti-tank

LR Ultra? (sp?)or the Godhammer surely both fulfill this role?
But they should be allowed to take them yes. (im right in thinking they cant right now yes?)

They can take the Ultra in Apoc and the standard Land Raider(I assume that's the Godhammer, which is actually what pattern the Lascannons are, not the Raider). I wouldn't call the standard dedicated as it's a very confused tank.

I mean more like a light version of the Ultra: no transport with a 3rd twin-linked AT gun(either lascannon or like a Helios with an AT/AA Hyperios Launcher instead of the Whirlwind launcher).

Actually, the 5 man Terminator squad thing is new. It used be that they were 10 10-man Terminator Squads with the Master of the Deathwing assigning himself a bodyguard from it as he chose.

Platuan4th wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

A new Land Raider variant designed for the Death Wing, maybe even one designed for dedicated long range anti-tank

LR Ultra? (sp?)or the Godhammer surely both fulfill this role?
But they should be allowed to take them yes. (im right in thinking they cant right now yes?)

They can take the Ultra in Apoc and the standard Land Raider(I assume that's the Godhammer, which is actually what pattern the Lascannons are, not the Raider). I wouldn't call the standard dedicated as it's a very confused tank.

I mean more like a light version of the Ultra: no transport with a 3rd twin-linked AT gun(either lascannon or like a Helios with an AT/AA Hyperios Launcher instead of the Whirlwind launcher).

Forgot the Ultra was Apoc only
(i know the Godhammer is the Lascannons, i just use that for ease of reference to the 'standard' LR in comparison to the others )
Agree its a bit confused, and a true AT LR would make a nice change.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, the 5 man Terminator squad thing is new. It used be that they were 10 10-man Terminator Squads with the Master of the Deathwing assigning himself a bodyguard from it as he chose.

Yes and no. They were 20 5 man squads in 2nd, due to 2nd having fixed 5 man Termie squads for loyalists even in fluff(they actually did the same with Scouts being fixed squads of 4 initiates and a sgt even in fluff). They got moved to 10x10 in 3rd when that was changed.

Platuan4th wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, the 5 man Terminator squad thing is new. It used be that they were 10 10-man Terminator Squads with the Master of the Deathwing assigning himself a bodyguard from it as he chose.

Yes and no. They were 20 5 man squads in 2nd, due to 2nd having fixed 5 man Termie squads for loyalists even in fluff(they actually did the same with Scouts being fixed squads of 4 initiates and a sgt even in fluff). They got moved to 10x10 in 3rd when that was changed.

What I was meaning is that in the minidex, it was 5 man squads with the *option* of getting the rest, and hinting at them commonly fielding in 10 man squads and then breaking up in deployment orders.

Kanluwen wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, the 5 man Terminator squad thing is new. It used be that they were 10 10-man Terminator Squads with the Master of the Deathwing assigning himself a bodyguard from it as he chose.

Yes and no. They were 20 5 man squads in 2nd, due to 2nd having fixed 5 man Termie squads for loyalists even in fluff(they actually did the same with Scouts being fixed squads of 4 initiates and a sgt even in fluff). They got moved to 10x10 in 3rd when that was changed.

What I was meaning is that in the minidex, it was 5 man squads with the *option* of getting the rest, and hinting at them commonly fielding in 10 man squads and then breaking up in deployment orders.

I know, just pointing out that the fluff has been flexible on it.

Then it's time for 20 man Deathwing Squads! All of them Librarians!

For new DA units, I would like to see Chaplain Dreadnoughts that have large loud speakers for spouting their Litanies of Hate and granting that rule to all friendly units within 12", a Rosarius Invulnerable save, a super sized Crozus Arcanum DCCW and a Hurricane Bolter arm. I would also like to see it allowable for HQ and Elite slots on the FOC for a starting price of 225 points with options for other ranged weapons and Extra Armor.

I think Chaplains should be Elite choices in the same manner as Blood Angels Chaplains and Interrogator Chaplains should stay HQs.

Mortis Dreadnoughts have already been mentioned and I agree with them, and allow them to be Heavy Support options.

More special Dark Angel psychic powers, only having 2 isn't really cutting it and only Ezekiel has a third power. Powers that force Morale checks at a negative modifier (like the BA one whose name escapes me) or causes enemy units to not be able to move in the opponent's turn, including running in the Shooting Phase or making Assault moves.

Army wide Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines.

Ravenwing Bikes have Locator Beacons instead of Teleport Homers but increase their base cost accordingly.

Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikers as Troops choices, but if both are fielded only either Deathwing or Ravenwing count as Troops while the other counts as Elites or Fast Attack as normal. That way you don't need a unique character to field an army of either.

Chaplains aren't really the Dark Angels' "signature" unit.


Frankly, they're the only one of the Astartes armies that don't have one.

However, I would go for Deathwing armies being able to take Dreadnoughts as both Elite and Heavy Support.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Henners91 wrote:We need Belial and Azrael added as special characters in the next marine codex that let you take termies and bikes as troops respectively.

Oh my, did I just condense most of the Dark Angels' original flair into two character entries on a sheet of A4? Yeah, I did...

Well you forgot that its Sammael who is the Master of the Ravenwing......

That... is embarassing.

Kanluwen wrote:

svendrex wrote:What sort of unique things would the Dark Angels have? Honest questions here, not being a jerk.


Unique Psy-powers.

Interrogator Chaplains (How are they different on the tabletop from normal chaplains?)

Mortis Dreads (Dreads with 2 shooting arms, like the 2x Auto cannon dread that everyone loves)

Extra Plasma stuff?

Company veterans (Again, how would they be different on the table top from Vanguard and Sterguard)

Fleet Based Chapter (extra Skimmers or Orbital assault rules, but if everyone gets the Storm Raven, then that might cover this role)

Would normal DA marines have some special rule to represent their hunt for the fallen? What could that rule be? (Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines or something else)


Is there anything else in the DA fluff already that makes them different?
What sort of stuff would fit their theme to make them more different?

I've given ideas before, pages worth of them in fact. Things like making them the "artifact" book, where you can field repeater plasma guns on Terminator heavy weapon mounts, Dreadnoughts as leaders for Deathwing squads, etc. There's a lot that can be done--the problem is simply DOING IT. If it's done in a fairly good way, the book can effectively become a home for 'counts as' Iron Hands, Heresy/Crusade era forces, et al.

And by the by, despite being a fleet based Chapter and well-known for precision strikes and having pinpoint accuracy for their bombardments...they have not a single character with Orbital Bombardments within the book. And for some stupid reason, Azrael Master of the bloody Unforgiven Chapters, as in every single one of the Dark Angels Successors as well as the Dark Angels themselves answer to him, cannot take Deathwing Terminators as troops. Despite him clearly being the head of the Deathwing Order and Inner Circle both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:We need Abaddon and Kharn added as special characters in the next marine codex that let you take CCWs and Terminators with combiweapons as troops respectively.

Oh my, did I just condense most of the Chaos Book's original flair into two character entries on a sheet of A4? Yeah, I did...

Fixed.

Come now, we'd at least need the special chars for each God to give us their troop choices Plague Marines and Berzerkers don't suck after all.

No, sorry. Plague Marines are just normal Marines with FNP. You just need an Apothecary to make those.

And notice I said "Kharn". As in Kharn the Betrayer, king berzerker.

Plague Marines are quite different from regular marines. They are riddled with disease and are extremely difficult to kill (T5, FNP), and use unique grenades using various plagues/diseases/toxins of Barbarus/etc.

As for the Dark Angels, they are a codex chapter with some dresses and emo angst tacked on. Keep the special characters that grant Deathwing and Ravenwing status, and you're done. There is nothing to differentiate them from other Chapters. Space Wolves and Black Templar? Sure, they follow a very different organization from other Chapters (they are more Legions than anything). Blood Angels really should be a codex chapter too, but at least they have Death Company and a lot of unique tech to set them apart (Furiosos, Baals, souped-up engines... they've had those staples for a while).

Omegus wrote:Plague Marines are quite different from regular marines. They are riddled with disease and are extremely difficult to kill (T5, FNP), and use unique grenades using various plagues/diseases/toxins of Barbarus/etc.

So defensive and offensive grenades, T5 and a built in Apothecary.

Bam. Finished. Death Guard army is entirely viable.

As for the Dark Angels, they are a codex chapter with some dresses and emo angst tacked on. Keep the special characters that grant Deathwing and Ravenwing status, and you're done.

The same can be said about any army in existence.
Tau are simply Eldar with hooves and forehead slits.

And frankly, you can take your "emo" garbage and put it where it belongs: the Blood Angels book.
At best, Dark Angels are obsessive.

Anyways, the fact that people continually focus on "Deathwing and Ravenwing" ignores the fact that the Dark Angels are not simply those two formations. They're supposed to be one of the few Chapters that regularly fields Terminators in most of their campaigns. They're also one of the few Chapters that is renowned for pinpoint assaults utilizing Drop Pods and teleport attacks in conjunction.

There is nothing to differentiate them from other Chapters. Space Wolves and Black Templar? Sure, they follow a very different organization from other Chapters (they are more Legions than anything).

This is a ridiculous fallacy that needs to be put to bed, here and now.
The Space Wolves and Black Templars are not organized like Legions.
Space Wolves being "organized like Legions" is conjecture. At most, each "Great Company" acts as a Successor Chapter. The organization of the Space Wolves is far closer to the Dark Angels than you seem to think.

Black Templars are, quite frankly, in the same boat. They are not organized "like a Legion". They are simply not splintered into Successor Chapters.
The only difference between them is that the Dark Angels, while retaining close ties with all of their Successor Chapters(read the codex sometime. The Chapter Masters of each Successor Chapter answer directly to the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels. He decides who is initiated into the Inner Circles of the Successor Chapters and their Deathwing/Ravenwing forces)--still have separated their Successor Chapters from the main fold.

If Azrael were to one day tell them "Okay guys, we're all going to start being Dark Angels" there would be no debate whatsoever.

[ Blood Angels really should be a codex chapter too, but at least they have Death Company and a lot of unique tech to set them apart (Furiosos, Baals, souped-up engines... they've had those staples for a while).

Furiosos as 'a staple' were simply Dreadnoughts with 2x CCWs and some of the army USRs.
Dark Angels didn't even GET their fething signature Dreadnought in their book, despite IA volume 2 featuring it(the Mortis pattern). It has been put into practically every Space Marine Codex since then, however.
The Baal is hardly "unique". It's a Predator with Assault Cannons. The only reason it's not widespread is that the Blood Angels zealously guard the plans for it--much like the Dark Angels do with the Mortis pattern Dreadnought...which they do not even fething get in their book.
The only reason Blood Angels "have a lot of unique tech to set them apart" is because work was put into them to seriously differentiate them from the Codex and they needed the work done to truly justify them getting their own book.

Let's keep it polite.-Mannahnin

DarknessEternal wrote:No, they just need 3 or 4 characters made part of the Codex Space Marine characters.

I agree completely.

Uhhuh.

Because clearly, the Dark Angels are the Chapter who spend their days writing poetry and painting artwork.

Waaaaait a second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShatteredBlade wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:No, they just need 3 or 4 characters made part of the Codex Space Marine characters.

I agree completely.

And you'd be wrong. Completely.

No, they spend it wearing dresses, brooding and chasing midgets around their catacombs.

Kanluwen wrote:Uhhuh.

Because clearly, the Dark Angels are the Chapter who spend their days writing poetry and painting artwork.

Waaaaait a second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShatteredBlade wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:No, they just need 3 or 4 characters made part of the Codex Space Marine characters.

I agree completely.

And you'd be wrong. Completely.

Considering the Space Marine codex practically stole everything from the Dark Angels Codex, I fail to see any reason why yet another Marine codex will be released while Sisters of battle, necrons, tau and Eldar are shoved to the side.

Omegus wrote:No, they spend it wearing dresses, brooding and chasing midgets around their catacombs.

So then they're not emo at all, they're a frat who throws excellent keggers?

Platuan4th wrote:

Omegus wrote:No, they spend it wearing dresses, brooding and chasing midgets around their catacombs.

So then they're not emo at all, they're a frat who throws excellent keggers?

TOGA TOGA TOGA!

ShatteredBlade wrote:
Considering the Space Marine codex practically stole everything from the Dark Angels Codex, I fail to see any reason why yet another Marine codex will be released while Sisters of battle, necrons, tau and Eldar are shoved to the side.

I'm sorry, where did anyone whatsoever say "Screw them, release Dark Angels now!"?
Oh right. Nowhere. Plus, releasing a poorly conceived book just to release a book is exactly what caused this problem leading to these terrible threads which are posted almost every other week lately in the first place.


By the by: Necrons and Sisters of Battle are all but confirmed to be in the pipeline, and approaching a release. Tau have been worked on as well, with Robin Cruddace stated to be the author.

Sisters of Battle are getting a crappy White Dwarf codex and will probably languish in that state for years. Cruddace does bad work, his books are notorious for horrible internal balance.

Necrons, Tau, and Eldar need to be updated, and Chaos probably deserves two books before Dark Angels get looked at.

ShatteredBlade wrote:
Considering the Space Marine codex practically stole everything from the Dark Angels Codex, I fail to see any reason why yet another Marine codex will be released while Sisters of battle, necrons, tau and Eldar are shoved to the side.

It's a lil' thing called cash money. Games Workshop likes it, and has long since discovered its customers will fork it over in exchange for Space Marines.

What you guys are doing is, essentially, telling McDonald's to stop selling so many varieties of burgers in order to start supporting the Filet-o-Fish better.

If they *must* remain a separate army? The FAQ did a lot, primarily by making SS's 3++, so they aren't in the dire need they were, but still aren't great, though the CSM's probably need it more as they don't have the SS spam gimmick.

That said, they really don't *need* their own book, neither really do the other loyalist variants, but certainly least of all the Dark Angels as they've never really been all that different from C:SM, at least not that a couple paragraphs and FoC swap options couldn't fix, and so really should be folded into C:SM.

Kanluwen wrote:
This is a ridiculous fallacy that needs to be put to bed, here and now.
The Space Wolves and Black Templars are not organized like Legions.
Space Wolves being "organized like Legions" is conjecture. At most, each "Great Company" acts as a Successor Chapter. The organization of the Space Wolves is far closer to the Dark Angels than you seem to think.

The fallacy lies with you, I'm afraid. Before you get so hot and bothered, you should get your facts straight.

The intro to the 3rd edition SW codex describes their organization as being "radically different to those found in other Chapters". The 5th edition codex states "the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military tradition of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred the teachings of Russ... even to this day."

The Black Templar codex states that despite new chapters being created from the ranks of the Imperial Fists, the majority (as in, way more than 1000 marines) were renamed Black Templar and "chose not to adhere to the Codex Astartes".

The Dark Angels, on the other hand, are very much a Codex Chapter, with the only deviation being having two companies that are either exclusively all terminators, or all bikers/speeders. If you take the half-page that explains the rules for Deathwing and Ravenwing out of their book, the remainder is stock vanilla. The only other purely in fluff difference is their predilection for plasma weapons.

What they really need to do with both loyalists and Chaos is to bring back the Index Astartes rules, perhaps expanding them a little.

Kanluwen wrote:

ShatteredBlade wrote:
Considering the Space Marine codex practically stole everything from the Dark Angels Codex, I fail to see any reason why yet another Marine codex will be released while Sisters of battle, necrons, tau and Eldar are shoved to the side.

I'm sorry, where did anyone whatsoever say "Screw them, release Dark Angels now!"?
Oh right. Nowhere. Plus, releasing a poorly conceived book just to release a book is exactly what caused this problem leading to these terrible threads which are posted almost every other week lately in the first place.


By the by: Necrons and Sisters of Battle are all but confirmed to be in the pipeline, and approaching a release. Tau have been worked on as well, with Robin Cruddace stated to be the author.

Way to deflect my argument and focus on something else My argument is opposed to releasing yet another marine codex whom really do not deserve it. They're codex marines, whom vary in the fluff but not in the crunch enough to warrent another book. You could just throw them into the Space Marine Codex. Its the same as when people are stating there should be a Salamanders codex I think. Putting yet another Marines codex in the pipeline is going to shove another army out of the way.

I don't quite understand why people get so riled up about old Dark Angel Codexes having little that seems unique.

That, certainly, will be easily changed. Wolves didn't ride Giant Wolves before their now book. Blood Angels had no shiny golden flying boys. Hell, Black Templar were by and large black Ultramarines before they got their own book. Fluff/Unit-History is irrelevant.

What matters is that Dark Angels have a fairly unique look with their Robed-Marines/Native-American-Termies. They also have a suitably large fanbase that goes for that look. Unique Minis + Fans who want to buy them = their own release. Fluff and Game Mechanics can and likely will be changed to fit.

ShatteredBlade wrote: Putting yet another Marines codex in the pipeline is going to shove another army out of the way.

I doubt it. The last 3 Marine Codex releases taken together had less new units than the Dark Eldar release all by itself. One release does not equal one release. And Marine releases, at best, are only 2 or 3 plastic boxes and 2 or 3 Finecast Characters at most. Not doing a Marine release will certainly not make room for a "large" (and less profitable.. because less double-use) Xenos-release. All it will do is reduce the number of available armies by 1 and thereby make the game less diverse.

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
This is a ridiculous fallacy that needs to be put to bed, here and now.
The Space Wolves and Black Templars are not organized like Legions.
Space Wolves being "organized like Legions" is conjecture. At most, each "Great Company" acts as a Successor Chapter. The organization of the Space Wolves is far closer to the Dark Angels than you seem to think.

The fallacy lies with you, I'm afraid. Before you get so hot and bothered, you should get your facts straight.

The intro to the 3rd edition SW codex describes their organization as being "radically different to those found in other Chapters". The 5th edition codex states "the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military tradition of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred the teachings of Russ... even to this day."

The Black Templar codex states that despite new chapters being created from the ranks of the Imperial Fists, the majority (as in, way more than 1000 marines) were renamed Black Templar and "chose not to adhere to the Codex Astartes".

The Dark Angels, on the other hand, are very much a Codex Chapter, with the only deviation being having two companies that are either exclusively all terminators, or all bikers/speeders. If you take the half-page that explains the rules for Deathwing and Ravenwing out of their book, the remainder is stock vanilla. The only other purely in fluff difference is their predilection for plasma weapons.

What they really need to do with both loyalists and Chaos is to bring back the Index Astartes rules, perhaps expanding them a little.

The first and second company do not adhere to the codex at all. It's not just an all terminator option or an all bike option. They aren't self-sufficient companies like all other active companies should be per the codex. In addition to this, the purpose of these companies isn't the codex approved either as both have a specific function and for all intents and purposes don't exist to outsiders.

In addition to this, the successor chapters of the Dark Angels aren't their own chapter. They all answer directly to the inner council and azrael. If you're going to consider the great wolf companies as still being space wolves by and large, the same is true for the Dark Angels. I forget where it was written, but one of the 'successors' for the Dark Angels was specifically requested by the Dark Angels to be created and none except Azrael knows the reason for this (I've long since forgotten the name of the successor, but I'm sure others know it).

So yea, if we're going by most divergent chapters I'd argue that Dark Angels, that are effectively an intact legion just like the Space Wolves, who have 2 companies that don't adhear at all to the codex, a third armoured company that doesn't adhere to the codex, and enough pull to have 'successors' created at their whim to be far more deserving of a codex than BT (whos divergence is only found in their background) and blood angels (that until recently had nothing but assault troops that is a far cry from being divergent).

Zweischneid wrote:I don't quite understand why people get so riled up about old Dark Angel Codexes having little that seems unique.

That, certainly, will be easily changed. Wolves didn't ride Giant Wolves before their now book. Blood Angels had no shiny golden flying boys. Hell, Black Templar were by and large black Ultramarines before they got their own book. Fluff/Unit-History is irrelevant.

What matters is that Dark Angels have a fairly unique look with their Robed-Marines/Native-American-Termies. They also have a suitably large fanbase that goes for that look. Unique Minis + Fans who want to buy them = their own release. Fluff and Game Mechanics can and likely will be changed to fit.

ShatteredBlade wrote: Putting yet another Marines codex in the pipeline is going to shove another army out of the way.

I doubt it. The last 3 Marine Codex releases taken together had less new units than the Dark Eldar release all by itself. One release does not equal one release. And Marine releases, at best, are only 2 or 3 plastic boxes and 2 or 3 Finecast Characters at most. Not doing a Marine release will certainly not make room for a "large" (and less profitable.. because less double-use) Xenos-release. All it will do is reduce the number of available armies by 1 and thereby make the game less diverse.

To be fair, that Dark Eldar codex did take over a decade to come out.

ShatteredBlade wrote:Putting yet another Marines codex in the pipeline is going to shove another army out of the way.

And GW will do it in a heartbeat if they think it'll increase their profits. Want more xenos support? Get everyone you know to stop buying Space Marines and have them start buying Eldar or whatever. Then get the majority of all other Games Workshop customers to do it, too.

Nvs wrote:
So yea, if we're going by most divergent chapters I'd argue that Dark Angels, that are effectively an intact legion just like the Space Wolves, who have 2 companies that don't adhear at all to the codex, a third armoured company that doesn't adhere to the codex, and enough pull to have 'successors' created at their whim to be far more deserving of a codex than BT (whos divergence is only found in their background) and blood angels (that until recently had nothing but assault troops that is a far cry from being divergent).

Gonna pull out that bullgak again? No devastators, no Librarians, no organized squads, no Companies, no sergeants, no Whirlwinds, Vows, mixed Crusader Squads, Holy Hand Grenades etc etc etc. Having 6k+ Space Marines that don't adhere to the Codex is more divergent than having 3 Companies of Space Marines that don't adhere to the Codex, at least in the world I live in.