Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

dajobe wrote:I think that the emporer should have killed Lorgar, he was emo and pissed off all the time, and I dont think he would have been missed, and then just told all of the other primarchs that lorgar sucked and they didnt need him or the Word Bearers

Lorgar was the most faithful of the primarchs and wished to be more than a killing machine. His father than destroyed his greatest achievement and humiliated him in front of his other brother. I'd be a little emotional as well.

that is a good point, but being a demi god, should have moved on

He failed to cut off the crust on their DOOMBREAD sandwiches, so of course they rebelled.

if my dad didnt cut off the crust of my sandwhiches id rebel too! This almost makes me side against the emperor, but ive fought for him for so long...i just cant...change, im just a stick in the mud

In The Lightning Tower audiobook Dorn and Malcador are having a discussion about why they traitors turned and Dorn says he wish he knew why, Malcadors response is basically 'I don't think even the Emperor fully understands chaos, because to understand chaos is to know madness, it is better not to know and maintain your sanity.'
According to Malcador the Emperor knows he doesn't understand everything about chaos but knows that its better that way.

dajobe wrote:that is a good point, but being a demi god, should have moved on

Demi gods are very emotional since they are half human and growup around humans. Having a human half means that they are capable of having human flaws.

Lorgar also had nightmares all his life since his pod took the worst beating of any of them, having spent the longest time in the warp being humped by various daemons trying to get inside. Then he kept an utterly corrupt human around as a father figure, even elevating him to be captain of the 1st company.

Yeah I belive the people around him did more damage to the imperium than he did. He was more or less just a puppet to their ambitions. He always seemed so hesitant to turn from his father. Had he of had more "trustworthy" confidants instead of two power mad egotists whispering venom in his ears. It is my belief that he would have never been led down the path of chaos had he never met those 2

You've put me in mind to rewatch "The Great Santini."

Omegus wrote:Lorgar also had nightmares all his life since his pod took the worst beating of any of them, having spent the longest time in the warp being humped by various daemons trying to get inside. Then he kept an utterly corrupt human around as a father figure, even elevating him to be captain of the 1st company.

If you mean beating as in "the Chaos Gods took care of him in warp" then you would be correct.

Lorgar appears to be a pretty poor judge of character agreed Also very easily led and a bit naive.

He wasn't the only one who had visions, Night Haunter and Sanguinius both. Not sure about the others though.

He did let them have fun go and shot things and get shot at is basicly like paintballing but with live rounds and swords lol.

I understand maybe not telling them about Chaos, because some like magnus or lorgar would most likely disobey, out of curiosity

But not telling them about the Webway gate? WHY????
Why keep that secret from your military generals who could would have benefited from knowing about it and able to make plans ahead of time to prepare for it

Instead what you get as a result is Chaos is able to lie to Horus about what hes actually doing at Terra
It makes no logical sense at all

Was he just planning to say hey guys, I fixed this thing that should kill the Eldar for good, now start waging war on them.
By not telling them, even if he had got it working it wouldve taken months or years to get together a campaign to put together a attack, which could've been prepared by the time he fixed it instead

jonolikespie wrote:In The Lightning Tower audiobook Dorn and Malcador are having a discussion about why they traitors turned and Dorn says he wish he knew why, Malcadors response is basically 'I don't think even the Emperor fully understands chaos, because to understand chaos is to know madness, it is better not to know and maintain your sanity.'
According to Malcador the Emperor knows he doesn't understand everything about chaos but knows that its better that way.

The very nature of Chaos makes it impossible to understand.

Asuron wrote:
But not telling them about the Webway gate? WHY????
Why keep that secret from your military generas who could would have benefited from knowing about it and able to make plans ahead of time to prepare for it

Instead what you get as a result is Chaos is able to lie to Horus about what hes actually doing at Terra
It makes no logical sense at all

Was he just planning to say hey guys, I fixed this thing that should kill the Eldar for good, now start waging war on them.
By not telling them, even if he had got it working it wouldve taken months or years to get together a campaign to put together a attack, which could've been prepared by the time he fixed it instead

Yeah, it might have turned out better.

But then again your sons are off on Crusades trying to reunite the Imperium the way you told them to do it, in Ships, then you make a new discovery that might make Warp travel obsolete. I think there would be a lot of angry people and some of his sons more redundant than others.

He possibly also didn't want Horus putting his oar in and trying to help, when he should have been uniting the Imperium.

Horus would have understood, being the only of the Primarchs that was like a real son.

iproxtaco wrote:Horus would have understood, being the only of the Primarchs that was like a real son.

Maybe, maybe not.

There's no maybe. Magnus would have been a bother though.

There is a maybe, if being the favorite son wasn't enough then what would be. All the Primarchs knew that he was the favorite, even Horus knew he was the favorite. Yet despite of all he and the Emperor did together he still stabbed his father in the back.

Its because Horus was a loser!

Remember Horus is like the kid from Pet Cemetery (or the reanimated Zaknafein)... he's resurrected by evil in an evil way to do evil things.

So for him to have all these twisted thoughts and carry through with them after the one bad choice, listening to the trusted advisor that claims to be in your dreams to save your soul, really isn't a reflection of his character... its a reflection on how thoroughly Chaos had used Lorgar (the broken little tool) to screw over the galaxy.

To me, the complete mishandling of Magnus and Lorgar are the two big mistakes that the Big E made (that and not killing Angron and Conrad on first introduction)... and a good chunk of those errors lies on Malcador (who if not for his final sacrifice, I would suspect as being an agent of Chaos).

If he had made Lorgar the PR chief of for the Imperium (after a primer on Chaos) and Magnus the sue chef for the Imperial Webway, well its an entirely different game.

I should also note that Lorgar and Magnus both had great ideas that were embraced by Guilliman and other primarchs after the heresy (Chaplains and Librarians).

iproxtaco wrote:There's no maybe. Magnus would have been a bother though.

Bother? Magnus is the only one who could even understand what the Emperor was doing, the webway was being build for him to run. He was among the most loyal of sons, to the point of being ready to commit suicide along with his whole Legion, but was finally forced to action by the Space Wolves' savagery and his sons desperate entrieties.

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:There's no maybe. Magnus would have been a bother though.

Bother? Magnus is the only one who could even understand what the Emperor was doing, the webway was being build for him to run. He was among the most loyal of sons, to the point of being ready to commit suicide along with his whole Legion, but was finally forced to action by the Space Wolves' savagery and his sons desperate entrieties.

Agreed... even the Chaos books strongly hint at him still being loyal to the Big E, just not the Imperium of Man... still hates the SW though

yeah, i really dont like SW, because thousand sons are my favorite chaos chapter, to the point where i might buy a squad even though i definitely have no intention of ever playing chaos

Lobukia wrote:Agreed... even the Chaos books strongly hint at him still being loyal to the Big E, just not the Imperium of Man... still hates the SW though

I don't know about that... he definitely has some regrets, but Chaos has managed to twist a lot of his thoughts into feelings of betrayal. "My father kept me in the dark. My father didn't believe me. My father sent a stupid donkey-cave to kill me. My father intended me to be a shrunken corpse in a golden box while he ascended to godhood."

Magnus is a broken man. The future of the Thousand Sons is squarely in the hands of Ahriman. He will achieve justice for the betrayed Thousand Sons. I have high hopes for Atlas Infernal.

Omegus wrote: Magnus ...finally forced to action by the Space Wolves' savagery and his sons desperate entrieties.

His motivation was lack of conviction. He tried to make the right choice, then gave up on it half way through. It had nothing to do with any change taking place on the battlefield. He knowingly committed his legion and planet to utter annihilation long before the battle took place. He just didn't have the stomach for it when his death was actually on the line.

It wasn't his death, it was Ahriman's entreaties that finally got him moving. And then he proceeded to kick Russ' ass until Russ got a lucky glancing blow on Magnus' eye in a masterful display of flailing.

But I won't disagree that lack of conviction is his biggest character flaw. We saw the same thing in Battle of the Fang... he would lose his confidence or certainty and would be driven back by regular Astartes, then would remember who the hell he is and what he's trying to do and proceed to annihilate everything effortlessly.

If my dad was the most powerful human ever to have existed I think I would just shut up and do what he says.

HE should of had daughters, they are alot more loyal plus the worst thing they could do is sleep with other men, or each other >.>

Thousand Sons>Space wolves
Magnus>Leman Russ
this is one of the few times i will speak against the imperium

No way, then you woud have them dressing slutty and sneaking out late at night to jump on khornes motorcycle while the emperor runs down the porch stairs with a shotgun