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Fulgrim was very heavily edited though. You can't help but wonder what it was like un-edited.

Asuron wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Mechanicum was garbage. The "main" character was a total Mary Sue. "Main" gets to go in quotes because there's no protagonist since there's no plot for that group at all; they just wander around aimlessly.

It was poorly written drivel.

You know when someone says something is bad, they're kinda supposed to back it up witha reasonable explanation
Here I'll show you how its done

"I think the main character is a Mary Sue because..."

Everyone loved her for no given reason. She had magical powers and destiny, once again, for no given reason. She had no flaws other than being too perfect for this sinful earth.

As I stated before, there was no plot. Half the book was Mary Sue and her Sueified posse crossing the planet for no reason except "we must". The other half was chopped into vignettes of dozens of characters with no depth, many of whom were nothing more than a name and the distinction of being the designated protagonist.

Im doing all of them, I absolutely loved legion, but it made me think "Imperial guard regiments could kill absolutely everyone and there isn't much point in space marines"

Out of them all, I only disliked Descent of Angels, the first half of the book was just poor sci fi.

Im halfway through battle for the abyss, its not that bad. But its not as good as horus rising, flight of the eisenstein et al.

All in though, im pleasantly surprised how good the HH books actually are.

There were a couple that I struggled to wade through, and one that I gave up on (whichever it is that is before the Mechanicum book (which is what I am currently up to) - the one by Ben Counter (I think) with the ultramarines - my god that was unremittingly crap).

All in all I think my favorite was the DA book, as it wasn't so different than the others and I needed a change after reading all the others pretty much back to back

After that the first couple were probably best.

- I enjoyed the first three, although less and less with each book. Horus Rising is great, but the characters become less and less believable in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames.

-Flight of the Eisenstein is pretty okay, butt suffers from retreading a lot of the same ground as the book before it. By the time you get to Garro's actual escape you've spent half the book replaying events that you're already familiar with. Also, the Deathguard characters are just dead boring. In fact, both this book and Fulgrim suffer from a cast of super uninteresting marines that are mostly interchangeable and have no real defining features. Abnet did a much better job of defining his characters, and because of that the marines in the first three books are much more interesting.

-Fulgrim is awful. Aside from Fulgrim himself the characters are completely forgettable. The conflicts of the book are largely uninteresting (even though they should be fascinating. Invading an lien planet? Turning on your brother marines? Falling to Chaos?), and Fulgrim's descent to Chaos feels like a mentally challenged child being tricked by a clever bully. Whenever someone tells me they really liked the book I have to really wonder what it is they could possibly enjoy about it.

- Descent of Angels isn't great, but it was much, much better than I had been led to believe. The history of the Dark Angels is actually fairly interesting (and I've never been a fan of the chapter). I was getting a little bored toward the end of the book, but it was nowhere near the slog that Flight was, and it was much better than Fulgrim.

- I'm about halfway through Legion and totally loving it. In fact, after the first few pages I was pretty sure it was going to be the best book of the series.

The thing that works so well with both Horus Rising and Legion is that Abnett knew not to try to make the marines the main characters. I commend Abnett for making Loken, Horus, Abbadon, Tarvitz and several other marines interesting and well rounded characters, but for the most part the marines in this series are very boring, bland people. In contrast, shifting the focus of the story to civilians, to artists and journalists and soldiers makes for much, much more interesting stories. In short, stories about the Space Marines are much more interesting than stories starring the Space Marines.

Aspects of Fulgrim I enjoyed but the majority of it left me disappointed, largely so. Fulgrims fall was made so much less tragic in my opinion.

The Battle for the Abyss, despite it's Scooby Doo villain Word Bearers, was ok I thought. Not much in the way of story but an easy, action packed read.

My favorite is probably the Flight of the Eisentstein. Legion, Mechanicum and the first three have all been other good reads.

Actually, I think Fulgrim has been my least favorite of the series. But I am an old guy who prefers the Slaves to Darkness/ Index Astartes Emperors Children background.

jake wrote:Fulgrim is awful. Aside from Fulgrim himself the characters are completely forgettable. The conflicts of the book are largely uninteresting (even though they should be fascinating. Invading an lien planet? Turning on your brother marines? Falling to Chaos?), and Fulgrim's descent to Chaos feels like a mentally challenged child being tricked by a clever bully. Whenever someone tells me they really liked the book I have to really wonder what it is they could possibly enjoy about it.

Yes, now that I've finished the book, I'm left disappointed. The suicidal urge subsided after I got about half way through the book, but the remainder didn't really redeem it in my eyes. Of course, your analogy is quite appropriate, as all the Primarchs were children with varying degrees of mental ability, and Chaos is the oldest and cleverest bully of them all. But yes, the book states that when not in the presence of the sword Fulgrim could think clearly, yet he didn't balk at the fact that he spent the last week talking to a poop painting of himself.

Omegus wrote:

jake wrote:Fulgrim is awful. Aside from Fulgrim himself the characters are completely forgettable. The conflicts of the book are largely uninteresting (even though they should be fascinating. Invading an lien planet? Turning on your brother marines? Falling to Chaos?), and Fulgrim's descent to Chaos feels like a mentally challenged child being tricked by a clever bully. Whenever someone tells me they really liked the book I have to really wonder what it is they could possibly enjoy about it.

But yes, the book states that when not in the presence of the sword Fulgrim could think clearly, yet he didn't balk at the fact that he spent the last week talking to a poop painting of himself.

That was problematic, wasn't it? The book really didn't do a good job of showing Fulgrim's struggle. He just very, very quickly slipped into flying rodent gak insanity without any real resistance at all. Sure, the demon was obviously very powerful and Fulgrim was really no match for it. I can buy that. I can even buy that Fulgrim was an easy target. But really, Fulgrim's resistance to all of this was just comical. Several times he thinks to himself "Oh, maybe I shouldn't do this" or "Oh no, what have I done", but he never really struggles. He never really tries to resist. It doesn't help that the demon is preying on the emotions and traits that make him a pretty unlikable character anyway. Jealousy, vanity and a massive inferiority complex could make a neat character in the hands of a better writer, but here it just seemed... silly. It's even worse that the few sane characters in the book are pretty much aware of what's happening but can't be bothered to do anything about it.

There's just too much crammed into that book. Fulgrim's fall and The Dropsite Massacre could be two different books.

I think I'll have to be unpopular here and go against perhaps the majority.

I did enjoy reading Fulgrim, and see it as one of the better ones in terms of plot idea and execution, but as has been said the fall of the EC and the dropsite massacre should perhaps have been two different books. Fulgrim not resisting and questioning what he did was a major spoiling part of the book, towards the end as it was clear the sword was sentient and exerting bigger influence I could accept but before it was certainly giving me a pause for thought. If they had split it over two books though it would have had to concluded the full extent of the fall and the tragic end to Fulgrim as the daemon took over totally in the second book and what would have been the bulk of its context? The fighting scenes in it were a bit too long in the tooth, a whole book of it for the massacres would have sent me to sleep. It also made me wonder just what happened to Fulgrim after that did his mind snap witnessing everything and he eventually threw himself into whole heartedly follwing Slaanesh and becoming a daemon prince after, or his DP form the actual Daemon and his mind is still suffering?
I did enjoy Lucius' utter arrogance at the end where the loyalists were under seige of contacting the traitor EC

Mechanicum for me was a bit of a let down. Too broad a view taken and no character with which I felt anything for. The background it uncovered was enjoyable with the Emperor setting up things to create the whole machine god thing, a vast conspiracy that any immortal dictator would be proud of . The revelation of the C'Tan being under the sands of Mars? Wow I hadn't guessed that.... Oh wait sarcasm doesn't translate well into the written word . Overall not the best but it had some merits.

Battle for the Abyss? Erm, you needed a whole book to say the WB have this great warship, which is going to be pivotal in the plans to wipe out the Ultramarines. But some guerilla tactics by the loyalist sabotage it and mess things up? To sum the book up:
An Ultramarine, a Space Wolf, a World Eater and Thousand Son walk into a bar....
Yes, its as enjoyable as a joke with no punchline imo. the whole book could have been done a "secondary" storyline like in Fallen Angels where they jump back and forth between Caliban and the Lion's fleet. It isn't one which I will read again I think unlike the others.

The DA novels in one way I enjoyed, but only for the back ground stuff. They have been very slow paced, haven't shown the first legion having any pre eminence in the crusade or even making any kind of good headway. With the unanswered questions from both these books I hope the concluding part to them ties these loose ends up. All in all, the story isn't really compelling enough for me to care.

My favourites in the series have been Horus rising, False Gods, Legion, The First Heretic and Thpusand Sons. The characters have been fully sympathetic imo to the reader, plots well paced and written in a way which compels you to want to read more. Strange though how the traitor Primarchs so far have been cast ina light which has the reader like them, and yet the ones who are destined to remain loyal are either barely mentioned and shown with a one dimensional personality (Dorn in Flight of the Eisenstein), or are just plain unsympathetic where they have got to take on a large role in the books. (Jonson for example). While I can think well, the group of writers want it this way so it highlights just how tragic the fall of these great figures were, it shouldn't be totally one sided imo. That or the brief mentions will be completely blown away when they get to have a larger role in future novels and the Lion really is that unsympathetic

That's because Fulgrim wasn't aware of any Daemon. He thought it was his own concision and was actually ok with what was happening. Only at the very end does he realize what he has done.

If a painting talked to me I'd be questioning what was going on And certainly would question thoughts which went against my own character. But then vanity is a terrible thing, maybe he though as space marine his awesomeness simply empowered objects to talk to him j/k.

The point is more that how he is presented at the beginning and to that point he begins doing things against his own character and knows something outside is influencing him like at the meeting with the Eldar. Which was perhaps the best fighting scene within the novel ie: it was short

Still overall it was enjoyable and I'd actually say it's worth reading again

The Daemon wasn't really saying things that were against Fulgrims thoughts, it was acting like the bad side of his conscious, voicing Fulgrims darkest thoughts. Essentially, Fulgrim already thought a good deal of what the sword told him, although its not as if there wasn't a hefty amount of manipulation.

it seems what's left to me is the Battle for the Abyss, Mechanicum, the quasi-duology of Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, and Nemesis.

If that is what you have left, I'd recommend:
Nemesis
Mechanicum
BFTA
DoA

I havent read FA so cant comment on it.

My favourites overall to date are definetly First Heretic, Legion and Nemesis.

Biggest disappointment by far and away was Prospero Burns. No actually DoA was.

iproxtaco wrote:The Daemon wasn't really saying things that were against Fulgrims thoughts, it was acting like the bad side of his conscious, voicing Fulgrims darkest thoughts. Essentially, Fulgrim already thought a good deal of what the sword told him, although its not as if there wasn't a hefty amount of manipulation.

That's really the problem with a lot of the Heresy as revealed through the novels.

The Primarchs (for the most part, Horus and Lorgar being the major exceptions) didn't "turn" on the Emperor, they gave the Daemons access to their minds and the daemons took over. It absolves the primarchs (and by extension the Emperor) of any responsibility for their fall.

In this way, the individual Marines of each chapter are more interesting because they made the individual choice to follow their corrupted leaders and fight against the oppresive Imperium.

biccat wrote:
The Primarchs (for the most part, Horus and Lorgar being the major exceptions) didn't "turn" on the Emperor, they gave the Daemons access to their minds and the daemons took over. It absolves the primarchs (and by extension the Emperor) of any responsibility for their fall.

That only happened to Fulgrim.

DarknessEternal wrote:

biccat wrote:
The Primarchs (for the most part, Horus and Lorgar being the major exceptions) didn't "turn" on the Emperor, they gave the Daemons access to their minds and the daemons took over. It absolves the primarchs (and by extension the Emperor) of any responsibility for their fall.

That only happened to Fulgrim.

Lorgar and Horus had the choice of not trusting the Daemons but they did anyway.

Even Fulgrim had responsibility in the way that he followed Horus,the Daemon only gave him a push.

All the traitors knew what they were getting themselves into by joining Horus.

I started reading the Series at Galaxy in Flames and have read each book in sequence. I'm currently starting Battle for the Abyss. So far Legion is my absolute favorite. Sneaky underhanded Space Marines and Guardsmen who can actually fight. Good stuff. I also thoroughly enjoyed Fulgrim. I liked the conflict Fulgrim waqs going through with the Daemon. I also liked seeing Ferrus Mannus, he's one of my favorite Primarchs. I very much disliked Decent of Angels. Jonson is a pompous punk who can't let anyone get in the way of his glory, and I found the main character kind of boring. I enjoyed reading Galaxy in Flames and Flight of the Eisenstein because the shared direct time lines and characters. After reading this thread though I feel like just skipping BFTA. I never really cared for stories including the Word Bearers after I read the Blood Angels Omnibus.

DarknessEternal wrote:

biccat wrote:
The Primarchs (for the most part, Horus and Lorgar being the major exceptions) didn't "turn" on the Emperor, they gave the Daemons access to their minds and the daemons took over. It absolves the primarchs (and by extension the Emperor) of any responsibility for their fall.

That only happened to Fulgrim.

Hm...I could have sworn that at least one other Primarch was taken over by a daemon.

It looks like Magnus was the only one who wasn't tempted by a daemon or anything, but made the conscious choice to switch to Chaos. Admittedly, it was because the "loyal servant" of the Emperor was raging over his homeworld at the time under instructions from Horus, but that's a different thread.

Thousand Sons is probably my favorite out of the series. For one it introduced the whole side of the Thousand Sons which honestly I did not know that much about. It portrays Magnus as this all powerful God but has a very human side, which is his sentimentality towards his Thousand Sons. I thought it was interesting, and also brought interesting debate such as the use of power (in this case it was represented with psychic power), which is something we can all relate to.

Pilau Rice wrote:
All the traitors knew what they were getting themselves into by joining Horus.

No, most of them did not. The whole daemonic pact stuff was pretty much limited to Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, and Magnus.

Alpharius knew about the daemons, but he joined for an alternative reason than insurrection.

Angron, Perturabo, and Mortarion didn't know anything about allying with daemons. Curze not only didn't know about the daemons beforehand, but he opposed to such an alliance afterwards.

Those latter four guys joined up with the Heresy to fight against the Emperor and his Imperium. The former 4 guys thought Chaos was dandy keen.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
All the traitors knew what they were getting themselves into by joining Horus.

No, most of them did not. The whole daemonic pact stuff was pretty much limited to Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, and Magnus.

Alpharius knew about the daemons, but he joined for an alternative reason than insurrection.

Angron, Perturabo, and Mortarion didn't know anything about allying with daemons. Curze not only didn't know about the daemons beforehand, but he opposed to such an alliance afterwards.

Those latter four guys joined up with the Heresy to fight against the Emperor and his Imperium. The former 4 guys thought Chaos was dandy keen.

First of all, Magnus didn't form a daemonic pact. His was directly with Tzeentch, a freaking god man!

Second of all, Magnus didn't turn to Chaos until the Emperor had turned his back on Magnus (assuming you accept the standard fluff).

biccat wrote:
Second of all, Magnus didn't turn to Chaos until the Emperor had turned his back on Magnus (assuming you accept the standard fluff).

DarknessEternal wrote:

biccat wrote:
Second of all, Magnus didn't turn to Chaos until the Emperor had turned his back on Magnus (assuming you accept the standard fluff).

Spoiler:

Magnus formed his pact with Tzeentch when he first dealt with the Flesh Change. While he intended to be loyal to the Emperor, he sold his soul to Tzeentch 200 years before the fall of Prospero.

Pilau Rice wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

biccat wrote:
The Primarchs (for the most part, Horus and Lorgar being the major exceptions) didn't "turn" on the Emperor, they gave the Daemons access to their minds and the daemons took over. It absolves the primarchs (and by extension the Emperor) of any responsibility for their fall.

That only happened to Fulgrim.

Lorgar and Horus had the choice of not trusting the Daemons but they did anyway.

Even Fulgrim had responsibility in the way that he followed Horus,the Daemon only gave him a push.

All the traitors knew what they were getting themselves into by joining Horus.

No, most thought they would kill the emporer by joining Horus. Fulgrim was the only one to get possesed

Fulgrim didn't actually intend to kill Ferrus. The daemon made the blade hit harder than he meant it to, Ferrus could've healed otherwise.



Once you sell your soul to a chaos god it's kind of permanent. You can't renege on it.

And what was the Emperor's deal? I can't find anything but discussions on it.

biccat wrote:

Spoiler:

Like the Emperor did.

You'll note only chaos daemons are making that claim. Unreliable Narrator in action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is still loyal to the Emperor, even though he's trying to kill him

Durza wrote:Fulgrim didn't actually intend to kill Ferrus. The daemon made the blade hit harder than he meant it to, Ferrus could've healed otherwise.

Spoiler:

Alpharius is still loyal to the Emperor, even though he's trying to kill him

Once you sell your soul to a chaos god it's kind of permanent. You can't renege on it.

And what was the Emperor's deal? I can't find anything but discussions on it.

Untrue, he struggled to stop the blade but at that point the daemon's influence was too strong. His moment of realization was when he saw his own reflection in Ferrus' eyes (by the way, whatever happened to Ferrus' eyes? Did the daemon eat them? Turn them into bitchin' earings?)

Anyway, I just read the Descent of Angels, and I actually enjoyed it quite a bit. I read the HH books more for insight on the motivation of the various personages, rather than Spehss Marehne combat. In fact, I find the often overly lengthy depictions of battles extremely tedious, and I found myself skimming over most of those parts in Fulgrim.

Much like Prospero Burns, I liked that DoA focused on the origins and traditions of the warriors of Caliban, as well as delving into the personalities and inner thoughts of many of the members. Not so much the Primarch, of course, but all the Primarchs except maybe Magnus and Horus are woefully underdeveloped (most of them seem to have the same personality of brash, temperamental, arrogant douchebags). And even Magnus and Horus can be seen as somewhat one-dimensional... one possessed of boundless curiosity and the other of boundless ambition. I suppose that's the whole idea of the Primarchs

I must say though, the last few pages of Descent of Angels threw me for a loop. The Lion's action seems to make no sense at all. I do hope Fallen Angels clarifies why he did what he did.

Well of the horus heresy series i would say if you havent read the first herectic read it if you haven't. or Prospero burns. the second book is slow in the begining but picks up alot.