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jordan23ryan wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, its not a tough one.

The Trukk moves "as far as possible". How far is it possible for an immobilised trukk to move? 0"

It does not say ...

The trukk MOVE AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.

It says Move the trukk 3d6 as far as Possible.

It still says 'as far as possible' though, and since you cannot move, the furthest possible is 0". If you roll the 3D6 and the result is 15, you move the greatest amount of those 15" as possible, which is 0" since you cannot move.

jordan23ryan wrote:It does not say ...

The trukk MOVES AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.

It says Move the trukk 3d6 as far as Possible.

Sorry but I edited the quote (highlighted red), because it reads better that way.
Anyway...

I have to admit, it sounds to me like it should be able to move.
It sounds pretty clear as an 'order to move' rather than a 'choice to move'.
Maybe the trukk doesnt have a choice here, even though it's immobilized.

Does it matter what if there is a contradiction because it's a very clear order that tells you to move the model?

Not trying to troll, just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

It tells you to move.

However the BRB restriction on not moving through impassable terrain still applies - so if you are 0" away from the terrain you would move (if you rolled that direction) 0"

And the restriction on not moving off the board still applies - and agian this can mean you move 0"

So why does another BRB restriction, that an immobilised vehicle CANNOT MOVE, get ignored?

Answer: it doesnt.

Actually, it just says to move it as far as possible. The next sentence about models and terrain stopping it is what makes impassable terrain or otherwise stop it, not the previous rules in the BGB.

The ramshackle rule is very points out what the limiting conditions are(enemy models and terrain). Friendly models and table edge were cleared up in the FAQ(spoiler, it stops as soon as it hits them). Anything else that would normally limit movement is ignored, such as having already moved flat out or being immobilized.

The rule only permits the restriction on the kareen to friendly/enemy models, terrain, table edge. Immobilized isn't in the list because it is a special move the will trump other movement rules for its turn.

-cgmckenzie

Move as far as possible - your maximum move when immobilized is 0

there is no specific override of this, si you still obey the base rule

Not that it's a rule here but where we play, we resolve any Codex/Rulebook contradiction by 'Codex always wins'.
If the codex overruled this then I guess the Trukk would move, but I think on this forum, maybe this is more of a perspective issue with the rules?

I've re-read both rules to make sure this makes sense.
I'm trying not to get fluffy here, but here I go:

-The 'Damaged - Immobilised' rule is worded very much as if the trukk itself may no longer move. "It may not move"
-On the other hand, the 'Kareen' rule is worded like the trukk is moved, rather than moving. "Move the Trukk"

Does this mean a vehicle that cannot move 'on its own steam' but rather that it has been effectively 'moved' by another force, possibly the force that brought about 'Kareen'?
This 'Kareen' movement may not be the Trukk moving itself, as it is out of control to the poor Orks that may be embarked inside.
This might be supported by the fact that a scatter dice has to be rolled as this is not in control of the models, and that it can move sideways?

To apply this to a game-world scenario (Here comes the fluffy bit):
The trukk is immobilised. The trukk is shot at, and maybe something explodes, pushing the trukk along the ground (or close enough to it) in a random direction.

That actually sounds quite logical. As a comparison a drop pod may never move, but can be moved by other effects, like a mawloc deep striking onto it.

You are told to move the trukk for this specific situation. The specificity of 'move the trukk this time' is more specific than 'immobilized vehicles cannot move'.

-cgmckenzie

BTW, is 'immobilized' spelled differently in the rest of the world or does GW just put 'immobilised' because they hate grammar?

cgmckenzie wrote:BTW, is 'immobilized' spelled differently in the rest of the world or does GW just put 'immobilised' because they hate grammar?

It's spelled that way because the rules are written by a company in England. Similay to 'armour' and colour' and many others.

And tonne is ton. Just go with it

For starters I'm in the "doesn't move" camp..however i am willing to play devil's advocate because I see the argument that both sides are making.Its just a matter of either side taking a different read on "as far as possible"

Jordan is reading the "as far as possible" in conjunction with the number 3d6 given. He reads it as if you roll a 12 you move 12, not 10, not 9, not 5...12. That is moving it "as far as possible". In the rule it didn't state, "ignore this result if vehicle immobilized".

Nos is reading the " as far as possible" in a different way. He sees the "as possible" to reference the state of the vehicle in the game. i.e...is it even mobile to begin with?

Both sides are following their own logic and both make sense. I would chalk this one up to sketchy rules explanation.

cgmckenzie wrote:Actually, it just says to move it as far as possible. The next sentence about models and terrain stopping it is what makes impassable terrain or otherwise stop it, not the previous rules in the BGB.

The ramshackle rule is very points out what the limiting conditions are(enemy models and terrain). Friendly models and table edge were cleared up in the FAQ(spoiler, it stops as soon as it hits them). Anything else that would normally limit movement is ignored, such as having already moved flat out or being immobilized.

The rule only permits the restriction on the kareen to friendly/enemy models, terrain, table edge. Immobilized isn't in the list because it is a special move the will trump other movement rules for its turn.

-cgmckenzie

Actually you have that kind of backwards. Kareen tells you what happens if it's in a position to break a rule in the book, namely if the vehicle would roll high enough it tells you that it cannot break the 1" rule.

Just to show you something though we'll go with your logic that the book will omit telling me what rules I can't break. Which means by that logic if I wanted to pick up someone's wonderfully painted army during a game then proceed to smash it to bits with a hammer I could. Why? Because the rulebook says it's all in fun, and maybe I'm having a bad day and want to be sadistic. Since the book did not tell me I can be a jerk, the rules support me being a jerk. That's the logic you're suggesting.

Just because Kareen! gives several limitations, does not mean that you have permission to ignore immobilized. In this situation of specific>general the more specific is immobilized, because immobilized tells you, a vehicle that is immobilized may not move. Nothing in the Kareen! result specifically overrides the immobilized rule.

I don't have either Codex in front of me, but if a Grey Knight vehicle is immobilized and a Librarian uses its Summoning power on it, would you say it could not be summoned? Again, I apologize if the wording is sufficiently different so as to not apply, but I would assume that if the wording is similar this would show that you can move a vehicle that has been Immobilized.

For what its worth, I am in the Trukk is moved camp.

Slow internet connection is slow...

flaim wrote:I don't have either Codex in front of me, but if a Grey Knight vehicle is immobilized and a Librarian uses its Summoning power on it, would you say it could not be summoned? Again, I apologize if the wording is sufficiently different so as to not apply, but I would assume that if the wording is similar this would show that you can move a vehicle that has been Immobilized.

For what its worth, I am in the Trukk is moved camp.

that would be a psychic power. If the kareen was a weird boy power, there would be no questions. I do not know the power you are talking about but it looks like it works like mek's tools and can allow vehicle to move again (repair the immobilised result??)

Kareen is a rule special to the trukk.

The rules doesnt say the trukks moves on its own, but the players moves the trukk 3d6 as far as possible.

**EDIT: jidmah edited his post, lol, could not refer to that now

flaim wrote:I don't have either Codex in front of me, but if a Grey Knight vehicle is immobilized and a Librarian uses its Summoning power on it, would you say it could not be summoned? Again, I apologize if the wording is sufficiently different so as to not apply, but I would assume that if the wording is similar this would show that you can move a vehicle that has been Immobilized.

For what its worth, I am in the Trukk is moved camp.

The summoning (when used in conjunction with the warp stabilization field) doesn't actually interact with the immobilized rule. It tells you to remove the vehicle from the table top, and place it within 6" of the model using the power. It doesn't tell you to move the model to within 6" of the target. There is a difference between those two, subtle but there.

Why does everybody pull back to the 'it doesn't say i can't smash your models' argument?

Anyway, the rule for kareen! is more specific than immobilized; it applies only to trukks and only in this scenario. It says to move it, so you move it. Stop if you are going to run over any models, terrain, or board edge. Those are the only limits that have been put forward in both the BGB and the FAQ, so those are the only limits that apply.

Special rule for this one scenario overrides the general rule for immobilized vehicles in all scenarios.

-cgmckenzie

Serder wrote:**EDIT: jidmah edited his post, lol, could not refer to that now

I kinda broke the forum for me - when I posted it turned out to be double-posts, so I edited the last one, and then the first one was gone... I'll just retype it:

Immobilized prevents the trukk from moving on its own, but Kareen! does not tell the trukk to make a move("The trukk moves..."), but rather tells the player to move the trukk("Move the trukk..."). You find similar wordings when using Terror from The Deep, moving models out from under a tank or the Lifta-Droppa. Kareen! might as well be the result of the engine or fuel exploding and sending the trukk flying across the air, no matter how many wheels were left.

cgmckenzie wrote:Why does everybody pull back to the 'it doesn't say i can't smash your models' argument?

Anyway, the rule for kareen! is more specific than immobilized; it applies only to trukks and only in this scenario. It says to move it, so you move it. Stop if you are going to run over any models, terrain, or board edge. Those are the only limits that have been put forward in both the BGB and the FAQ, so those are the only limits that apply.

Special rule for this one scenario overrides the general rule for immobilized vehicles in all scenarios.

-cgmckenzie

The problem is you're saying that because a rule tells you to move, you move. What other people are trying to say is that a rule tells you not to move, you don't move. It's a matter of you have to have specific permission to move when you cannot move. Kareen! is not more specific. By your own words, you cannot kareen into another unit because it says in that case you do not move into them. Going with what your saying, there is precedent where you ignore the moving as far as possible 3d6 inches. If you roll 12, and are 2 inches from a unit, you only moved one inch and stopped dead in your tracks. You did NOT move 12 inches, hence you broke the kareen rule because it told you to break the rule. Where exactly does it tell you to break the rule on immobilized?

Assuming that Trukks aren't fast...

If the Kareen goes off and you role more than 12 on 3d6, does the rule limiting vehicles to 12" of movement stop the trukk at 12"? Or can a trukk that Kareens 18" move the full distance?

biccat wrote:Assuming that Trukks aren't fast...

If the Kareen goes off and you role more than 12 on 3d6, does the rule limiting vehicles to 12" of movement stop the trukk at 12"? Or can a trukk that Kareens 18" move the full distance?

Trukks are fast and open topped

Totally irrelevant since Trukks are fast, but the rule tells you you can move 3D6 and so you can move 3D6. That doesn't change the fact that if you cannot move at all you can't move.

biccat wrote:Assuming that Trukks aren't fast...

If the Kareen goes off and you role more than 12 on 3d6, does the rule limiting vehicles to 12" of movement stop the trukk at 12"? Or can a trukk that Kareens 18" move the full distance?

In that situation the rule tells you to move 3D6. One rule is telling you to move 3D6 inches which overrides the 12" movement if you roll higher than 12.

Jidmah wrote:
Immobilized prevents the trukk from moving on its own, but Kareen! does not tell the trukk to make a move("The trukk moves..."), but rather tells the player to move the trukk("Move the trukk..."). You find similar wordings when using Terror from The Deep, moving models out from under a tank or the Lifta-Droppa. Kareen! might as well be the result of the engine or fuel exploding and sending the trukk flying across the air, no matter how many wheels were left.

But the FAQ regarding moving mycetic spores says;

Q: A Mycetic Spore cannot move itself once it has
entered the battle, but can it be moved by another
model (e.g. by a Mawloc’s Terror from the Deep special
rule)?
A: Yes.

In this case, the trukk is not being moved by another model, it is suffering a damage result.

And Terror from the Deep even says that "Vehicles, including immobile vehicles, retain their original facing if they are moved."
So the specific rule allows an immobile vehicle to be moved out of the way by another model, but the point remains that an immobile vehicle cannot move for the rest of the game.

The ramshackle rule is similar to the 'Don't Press Dat' rule. That one says at the start of the ork movement phase you roll for the looted wagon and if a '1' is rolled the wagon, "...must move directly forward as far as possible..." and again, an immoblie vehicle cannot move at all, that is the farthest it can possibly go.

So how about the Blood Angel's Magna Grapple? It has the same wording as Kareen!, and has no exceptions for immobile vehicles. So immobile vehicles can't be pulled by the grapple?

Corrode wrote:Totally irrelevant since Trukks are fast, but the rule tells you you can move 3D6 and so you can move 3D6. That doesn't change the fact that if you cannot move at all you can't move.

Fair enough, thanks. My ork horde is full of footsloggin' boyz. We don't need no trukks!

Jidmah wrote:So how about the Blood Angel's Magna Grapple? It has the same wording as Kareen!, and has no exceptions for immobile vehicles. So immobile vehicles can't be pulled by the grapple?

Sure they can. The Magna-Grapple rule says if the vehicle isn't destroyed by the shot you roll and if the result is sufficient the dread can 'drag' the vehicle closer. The vehicle itself is not moving, the BA dread (another model) is causing the vehicle to move.
In fact, Magna-Grapple even ends by saying if the vehicle survives the ensuing assault it will be able to move normally in the next turn.
And if it's immobilized, its 'normal' move will be to remain in place.

So how is this different from kareen? The trukk is not moving, but the hit that destroyed it causes it to fly across the board before exploding. The wording is the same, so the effect must be, too.

Kareen! has a very specific list of limitations. It doesn't throw an 'etc' on the end like what is and isn't hull, so the only limits of its movement is what is listed and clarified in the FAQ.

Saying that because it tells you a limit gives you precedent for another limit that isn't mentioned is absurd. It is saying the only exceptions to the 'move the full 3D6 inches', not allowing new exceptions to that statement.

-cgmckenzie

Lone Dragoon wrote:

flaim wrote:I don't have either Codex in front of me, but if a Grey Knight vehicle is immobilized and a Librarian uses its Summoning power on it, would you say it could not be summoned? Again, I apologize if the wording is sufficiently different so as to not apply, but I would assume that if the wording is similar this would show that you can move a vehicle that has been Immobilized.

For what its worth, I am in the Trukk is moved camp.

The summoning (when used in conjunction with the warp stabilization field) doesn't actually interact with the immobilized rule. It tells you to remove the vehicle from the table top, and place it within 6" of the model using the power. It doesn't tell you to move the model to within 6" of the target. There is a difference between those two, subtle but there.

My emphasis on your quote there. Looks as if the wording is such that my reference does not apply.

I am still in the move category, simply was trying to find another side to the argument.