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Everyone ive ever played with plays it as the vehicle not moving. EVery single ork player.

However, the wording is the same for all these rules. Ramshackle is a unique rule, as usually vehicles are the most reliable parts of the army. Orks are a unique army, with almost every second rule having the possibility of going bad, including Kareen!. Just because it's unique in causing forced movement onto itself, it isn't forced movement anymore?

Also if it isn't forced movement done by the player, why is it only limited by immobilized, and not disembarking and maximum movement speed?

Also note that the Ork FAQ predated the BRB FAQ introducing the "can't move of the table"-rule. One of my LFGS actually played it as destroying models tankshocking, hit&running or otherwise speeding off the table by accident. So the Ork FAQ actually did add something to the usual movement rules. It simply was unclear what happens when flying into friendly models or off the table before. I've also heard of it passing through friendly models as well as tankshocking them before the FAQ.

I'd also appreciate an actual response to my arguments rather than a more nicely worded "don't be silly".

Kareen! has the same wording as Lash - and lash is movement.

The BRB FAQ of "no moving off the table" wasnt a new rule - you were never allowed to move off the table, unless you were falling back or had another special rule allowing you to. So you never had permission to move off the table, therefore never could.

Lash has almost completely been replaced by a FAQ, it isn't really an example. That would be like using Nemesis Falchions as precedent for Mork's Teeth, which iirc we both agreed on that RAW was +2A.
Still, it describes a forced move with almost all limitations of a regular move. This does not necessarily make it a regular move, and much less does it make all forced moves regular moves.

Sure, you didn't have permission to move off the table freely back then. But what if a model did have to move off the table? While the rule of the LFGS might border a house rule, it's not that far fetched.

Jidmah wrote:Brother Ramses: Don't be ridiculous. The shunt move discussion is something totally different, and you didn't prove your claim now or then with even one rule. Also note that basically everyone in those discussions agreed how the FAQ would and did turn out.

nos: Every model moving is a player moving a model, but not every time a player moves a model, it's a move done by a model. Just like every duck is a bird, but not every bird is a duck.
So don't brush off that argument just yet. There is also still no proof that forced movements can only be caused by models. You base your point of view on a handful of unproven claims, so no reason to call us a lost cause.

It is the same argument.

Both you and Nos were claiming that because the mechanics of a teleport shunt involved physically moving the model, that it was normal movement and could be done during the Scout Move. Now Nos is claiming that because the mechanics of Kareen physically move the model, it is normal movement and does not override an Immobilized result.

And my point with teleport was right on. I told you that it wasn't normal movement because it was done instead of moving and would not be allowed to be done during the Scout move unless specified by a FAQ like smoke launchers. The FAQ that was released did not allow it thus clarifying that it isn't normal movement as the both of you claimed.

I am actually suprised to see you acknowledging the 3d6 Kareen movement as a rules mechanic and not Movement when you could not acknowledge the 30" movement of a Teleport Shunt as a rule mechanic and not Movement.

Miraclefish wrote:That is another good point. If the Trukk has moved 18" and then gets a Kareen result, the furthest it can move is surely 0"?

The rule says to move it as far as possible, rather than something more useful like 'as far as it is able to move when subject to speed moved last turn, vehicle immobilised results and other factors'.

In light of this, I'd lean towards saying that the Kareen result is independent of all other factors in the game and, when activated, you do what it says regardless of any flags, modifiers and previous actions of the Trukk.

Bold added. This neatly sums up any objection about a vehicle being moved during the Kareem result. Slam Dunk.

Well, yes. It sums up all the objections.

That doesn't mean all those objections are necessarily correct.

BR - no, the claim that it was movement is that it states, 3 times, that it is a move. It was fairly clear. GW, from a balance perspective mainly, ignored their own precedent and ruled against it. Doesnt change the rules however.

I must say that it seems if this problem ever arises in a game I will propose a roll of as somebody suggested here. 1-3 the trukk will sit where it is 4-6 a rolling fireball of debris.

Ramses: You fail to understand my argument, and basically your own too. Even by my argument, the distinction between a model moving and a model being moved, shunt would still be a move done by the model, because first, it is worded that way, and second, it even explicitly says so. Don't compare apples to oranges.

You also shouldn't argue stuff that has already been ruled by GW. Nobody cares who was right before, unless you are in need for a confirmation to boost your ego.

So how far does a Trukk rolling a total of 11" on a Kareen result move after having moved the full flat out 18" in its turn?

Miraclefish wrote:So how far does a Trukk rolling a total of 11" on a Kareen result move after having moved the full flat out 18" in its turn?

That's an easy one. It moves 11".

it is easy because you guys want the rules to favor how you read it. A trukk can never move past 18" inches unless on the road ? Max 24 right ? But when you have to roll Kereem you get to move up to 18" move. My point is that because the rule for Ramshackle tell you to move 3d6 you are able to move again when you are not allowed to move again. The it tell you to get out too. ( Miraclefish ) is saying the same thing. How can you read the rule one way but not the other way >?

jordan23ryan wrote:it is easy because you guys want the rules to favor how you read it. A trukk can never move past 18" inches unless on the road ? Max 24 right ? But when you have to roll Kereem you get to move up to 18" move. My point is that because the rule for Ramshackle tell you to move 3d6 you are able to move again when you are not allowed to move again. The it tell you to get out too. ( Miraclefish ) is saying the same thing. How can you read the rule one way but not the other way >?

Look at the "Moving Fast Vehicles" section on page 70. It says, "A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18"."
Nowhere in there does it say that a fast vehicle can never move past 18".
It just can't be moved farther in that movement phase.
Same with passengers in a vehicle that moved flat out. They can't embark or disembark that Movement phase.
So in the next player turn, the vehicle can move due to a kareen result (unless stunned or immobilized) and the passengers can be forced to disembark.

Yes it does. It tells you that 12 is the Max and then you get to fast and it tells you they have a extra gear to move up to 18. PAGE 57 is what you want to read. If you listen to nosferatu1001 then there is no way to move anymore, Hell since Red Paint Job does not state that it overrides the Movement it only states you add to your movement then that is not a real rule and you should not be able to use it since it does not override a USR ? The hypocrisy is getting out of control.

jordan23ryan wrote:Yes it does. It tells you that 12 is the Max and then you get to fast and it tells you they have a extra gear to move up to 18. PAGE 57 is what you want to read. If you listen to nosferatu1001 then there is no way to move anymore, Hell since Red Paint Job does not state that it overrides the Movement it only states you add to your movement then that is not a real rule and you should not be able to use it since it does not override a USR ? The hypocrisy is getting out of control.

Well it seems you are getting voluntary and compulsory movement mixed up.

With you moving the vehicle 18" in the movement phase that is voluntary movement.

The 3D6 from Kareen is compulsory movement so it is not limited to the maximum voluntary movement speed of the vehicle.

Neither of which can take place if the vehicle is immobile since the vehicle can not move for the rest of the game.

Its like regular infantry move 6" in the movement phase, but when falling back they move 2D6 (That is a Max move of 12") and can travel more than 6" because of the falling back rules.

Can you quote rules to proof your claim?

jordan23ryan wrote:Yes it does. It tells you that 12 is the Max and then you get to fast and it tells you they have a extra gear to move up to 18. PAGE 57 is what you want to read.

Page 57 says nothing about any "extra gears".
Page 70 is the page that talks about fast vehicles and moving flat out,
And you might want to look at page 11 regrding random and compulsory movement.

So, how about kareening after moving and disembarking units?

jordan23ryan wrote:Yes it does. It tells you that 12 is the Max and then you get to fast and it tells you they have a extra gear to move up to 18. PAGE 57 is what you want to read. If you listen to nosferatu1001 then there is no way to move anymore, Hell since Red Paint Job does not state that it overrides the Movement it only states you add to your movement then that is not a real rule and you should not be able to use it since it does not override a USR ? The hypocrisy is getting out of control.

Seriously, please quote a rule, just once. Please.

No hypocrisy.

You cannot move, ever, while immobilised.

The maximum you can choose to move a trukk is 18". Is kareen a choice? No. Is a rule limitiing you to a specific distance when choosing to move applicable to a compulsory move? No

No hypocrisy, just applyhing the right rules in the right situations. You know, all of them, not just the ones you like.

The kareen rule says if kareen happens "The Shot" moves the truck 3d6. So under the rules that an immobilized vehicle cannot move is true. The shot affecting the vehicle moves it, so IMO the truck follows the Kareen rule and moves the 3d6.

I agree, Immobilised trukks can move as far as 0'' Though I think its lame its the rule. Its hazy on both sides of the argument but less hazy on this side.

time wizard wrote:

jordan23ryan wrote:Yes it does. It tells you that 12 is the Max and then you get to fast and it tells you they have a extra gear to move up to 18. PAGE 57 is what you want to read.

Page 57 says nothing about any "extra gears".
Page 70 is the page that talks about fast vehicles and moving flat out,
And you might want to look at page 11 regrding random and compulsory movement.

There is a Important Paragraph you need to read then the Rules might make since to you for Vehicles... Here is the Very first Paragraph for Vehicles. Did you not read the part where I put " then you get to fast" I was meaning Fast Vehicles. I should have made it very clear. I am typing as if everyone knows the rules. Sorry i will Be more clear for the people who dont know the rules.



The first part of this section presents the rules
common to all vehicles. Each of the vehicle types
has a separate entry at the back of the vehicle
section, listing their unique rules and the
exceptions to the normal vehicle rules (walkers
being by far the most different).

Just throwing this in there....

Type

Vehicles come in all sorts of different types, some
are faster than others while some are able to fly or
walk instead of driving along on wheels or tracks.
The different types are Fast, Tank, Open-topped,
Skimmer and Walker. These traits can be combined
to define, for example, a Fast Skimmer or an
Open-topped Walker, in which case the vehicle has
all of the rules for all of its types

nosferatu1001 last time I quoted a Rule you said I was using a illegal copy of the BRB codex. Man you are Picky ! I will do this for you again. So have fun picking it apart.

Unless differently specified, vehicles can either
remain stationary or move at one of two different
speeds – Combat Speed and Cruising Speed.

The speed at which a vehicle moves influences the
amount of weapons it may fire and how easy a
target the vehicle will be if assaulted, as described
later.

A vehicle moves at Combat Speed if it moves up to 6". This represents the vehicle advancing slowly in order to keep firing, albeit with a reduced
firepower.

A vehicle moves at Cruising Speed if it moves more
than 6" and up to 12". This represents the vehicle
concentrating on moving as fast as possible
without firing its guns.

Moving a maximum of 12" may seem relatively
slow for a vehicle, but it represents a cross-country
speed rather than moving flat out on a road

Moving fast vehicles

Fast Vehicles are capable of a third level of speed,
called Flat Out. A Fast vehicle going Flat Out
moves more than 12" and up to 18". This
represents the vehicle moving at top speed,
without firing its guns (in the same way as a non-
fast vehicle would when moving at Cruising
Speed)

ROADS

Vehicles – with the exception of walkers and
skimmers – that follow a road for their entire
Movement phase (including entering along it
if coming from reserve) may move up to
double their maximum speed, but only if they
do not do anything else that turn. They do
not gain this benefit if any of the following
apply: Difficult Terrain tests, shooting,
embark or disembark passengers, or the use
of any vehicle upgrades (such as smoke
launchers or searchlights). In essence, the
vehicle must concentrate on moving down
the road and nothing else.


So can we Agree that fast vehicles can move up to 18" and 24" on the road. You can not move any further. This rules does not state in the movement phase nor any other. Lets go back to a trukk moving 25" "RPJ" and then getting a Kareem later in the Shooting phase. I then roll 18". The question i have is How can i move 18" more if i have already move 25" ?

-------------RAMSHACKLE------------------
If a trukk suffers a vehicle Destroyed! or Vehicle Explodes!(wrecked) result, roll on the Ramshackle table below and apply the result instead of the usual Effects.If the trukk suffers more then one vehicle Destroyed! or Vehicle Explodes ! result, roll one dice per result on the ramshackle table, but only apply the lowest dice roll.


Ramshackle does not state anything about overriding the movement, only the wrecked or Destroyed ? Before I go any further.......... is this right ?

#1 Dont block quote rules. Read the rules of the forum.
#2 if you are going to block quote from a PDF, at least put it within quote tags and remove the extra carriage returns, so it doesnt take up a whole page of one thin column
#3 you seem to have missed that kareen is a compulsory and not voluntary action. Voluntary movement is what you have just described, and kareen is not voluntary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:#1 Dont block quote rules. Read the rules of the forum.
#2 if you are going to block quote from a PDF, at least put it within quote tags and remove the extra carriage returns, so it doesnt take up a whole page of one thin column
#3 you seem to have missed that kareen is a compulsory and not voluntary action. Voluntary movement is what you have just described, and kareen is not voluntary.

First, I did this from my word Doc that i have of the BRB. If i stated something wrong , point it out. Stop being a sissy and hiding behind your # 1 and # 2 answers. Mind Your Business. I know the rules and have talked to a Mod about this already. I put it this way so everyone can read and have there own opinion about this and it is clear since it is broke down.

Just like i thought. You makeno damn since. You know the answer to the question i had. You don't want to come right out and say it. At least you are saying that Kereen is a Rule. You already stated that special rules do not override USR or rules unless they state it otherwise. Kareen does not talk about movement. If you want to say that it is not voluntary action then there are a few people here that say since that would be the case, you would then Move 3d6 since the trukk is moving on its own. So which is it ?

Sorry, struggling with that paragraph here.

I have never, ever, ever denied that Kareen! is a rule. Stop suggesting otherwise. Its not only a ridiculous position for you to suggest, it also makes your argument weaker.

Secondly, enough with the false dichotomy. Seriously.

I have said that specific overrides general. Normal movement is voluntary, so a compulsion to move would override a normal restriction on voluntary movement.

Immobilised stops all forms of movement by the trukk, compulsory or not.

Finally - yes, Kareen talks about movement. Hint: the word "move" is used.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Finally - yes, Kareen talks about movement. Hint: the word "move" is used.

You are right, the rule does state that there is movement. Immobilized is a Rule and Ramshackle is a More Specific rule. You just stated that.

I have said that specific overrides general. Normal movement is voluntary, so a compulsion to move would override a normal restriction on voluntary movement or involuntary

I added or involuntary since the rules don't say or suggest there is a deference. If I am wrong please point this out to me.

Ramshackle is a More specific rule and it tells you to Move if you roll Kereem. So why can a rule that is more specific not move you when the rule does have movement in it? Why would this not override immobilized ? You have Rule vs Rule but one is more Specific and seems to me like a Special rule would win this battle ?

So can we Agree that fast vehicles can move up to 18" and 24" on the road. You can not move any further. This rules does not state in the movement phase nor any other. Lets go back to a trukk moving 25" "RPJ" and then getting a Kareem later in the Shooting phase. I then roll 18". The question i have is How can i move 18" more if i have already move 25" ?

The answer to this would be, A Rule that is More Specific lets you move again. Special is the same as Specific.

No, kareen is a less specific rule. We've been over this. I've shown how it is less specific, you keep asserting it isnt. One is a gooda rgument, the other isnt.

Stop talking about "special" as if it means anything. It doesnt. An immobilised trukk suffering kareen is more specific than a trukk suffering kareen. Done.

Special /= specific. Thats an inane attempt at conflating two terms. Dont.

You have you own idea how it works. You really have not proved anything to anyone but to yourself how you seem to pick or choose what is more specific.

I see it the other way. I dont see how Kareem is less specific when in the rule itself, Ramshackle is more specific. It covers movement and Destroyed or Wrecked.

Yet says nothing about immobilised. Not. One. Jot.

You have yet to show any reasoned argument why Kareen is more specific, apart from trying to claim that "special" is the same as "specific". Which it isnt.