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Attracting newbies is always a gamble. You never know if they're going to finish an army, paint it, then move onto another, or just drop the game entirely.

Most Veteran players I know have large fully painted armies. They often start, and finish, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th armies. Complete armies.


Someone that works at my FLGS has probably 15 armies. I got back into the game about two years ago and in the past year, I've finished a Chaos Space Marines army (1,850 points) and a Mech IG army (1,850, again). Both are comprised of 100% new models. I still have my Space Marines army from 10 years ago, too.


In other words, in my experience, Vets actually tend to spend more. They play more often, begin new armies more often, and complete armies more often.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that "disposable income" is a greater factor than "how many models I already have" in predicting how many miniatures someone is going to purchase.

Do newbies have more disposable income? That is probably a better place to take the discussion. A "Veteran" with his 2nd/3rd-ed Eldar army with all ancient sculpts being carried around in a Wal-Mart tacklebox instead of an Army Transport is probably choosing to do that because he has the same disposable income as the "Newbie" with his mishmash of secondhand models and poorly-assembled new kits.

NuggzTheNinja -see to me you are sort of making the opposite point to your observations. From GWs (or indeed any businesses POV) the Vets have spent and the newbs are going to spend.

My own experience after 20 odd years, this week I spent £100+ on some GK stuff that took my fancy on a whim, first GW purchase in 6 months (2nd in 2 years?). A business would be foolish indeed if it build a business plan around me/my ilk.

Now, hordes of 12-15 years olds who are given regular disposable income each week, now that says Ker-ching to me!

All I can add to this is my own experience, something I suspect should be the case with many posters. I could barely afford to spend anything on hobby stuff when I was new, and a kid. Now that I am an adult, with a job, and a good handle on my money, I spend significantly more. So in this case: Veteran spends more than Newcomer. The pattern is the same for my friends, too.

Mr Mystery wrote:Overall, you make far more out of a beginner, as they need everything, having nothing,

Whilst more experienced gamers might make a big splurge a couple of times a year, that is no business plan. As such, your beginner also provides a more stable income.

And contrary to popular (uninformed, pure opinion) belief, the training GW gives to it's staff is about ensuring the customer gets what the need, rather than just what they want. The stores are naturally geared toward recruitment, as this is what keeps things going. Plus, again your beginner needs a of support. Experienced gamers, well, not so much. That's the advantage of experience.

If you look at it from a very shorted sighted view then yes, beginners are better for buisness, it isn't as simple as the new guy needing everything, keeping the vets happy have a positive effect on word of mouth which for a company that doesn't advertise is very important, Vets will indeed recruit new players to games from gaming clubs which in turn will provide more sales, you think not? it depends if its just a GW gaming club or a general gaming club. I have been to a few that have been a mixture of RPG, card games and table top wargaming, of course if the vet's get annoyed and stop playing and say start playing warmachine are they going to suggest people walk into GW and learn to play (or even teach someone?). Do vets actually buy less? well I think it depends on the price, I think before the release of Marine codex I was spending monthly, just just the odd thing, I would pop into GW on my home from work, if I saw something I wanted to paint I would buy, if I wanted a new army I would make a budget (I was spending between £60-100 a month). Maybe the real problem GW have with vets is that are simply just more price sensitive than newbies, I can't speak for everyone but until the prices got insane I would actually replace older models with the news for my army if they turned out to be a massive improvement ( I did this with my chaos army, Chaos warriors, knights, daemons, you name it, I have a 10k army of the current range).

So why did I stop spending so much money in GW (which actually dropped to just buying paint)? simple, the price just became to high and the WoC book was a massive disappointment, if GW hadn't ridden the prices so dramatically I wouldn't be buying 2nd and trading stuff, I woudl still be buying in GW, you can see the drop in sales yeah from year so obviously more and more people are feeling the same, its either that or GW is pricing themselfs out of the market for newbies.

Mr Mystery wrote:There is precisely sod all point in selling someone a model kit, and not checking that they have the glue and tools. I think we've all made a purchase, and get home to find the glue is lost or used up.

I has nothing to do with that, don't even try and dress it up, its simple link selling, all retailers do it, they don't do it for good of the customer, they do it to increase profits, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, its pure buisness, nothing more, little extras is how a lot of companies make their profit.

htj wrote:All I can add to this is my own experience, something I suspect should be the case with many posters. I could barely afford to spend anything on hobby stuff when I was new, and a kid. Now that I am an adult, with a job, and a good handle on my money, I spend significantly more. So in this case: Veteran spends more than Newcomer. The pattern is the same for my friends, too.

True that.

I would also add that it is comparatively little compared to what I send on other things.

I would like to point out it should NOT be an either or decision.

GW plc could attract NEW customers and retain older ones.

What attracts new customers, awsome looking and sounding world/universe to explore.

GW plc current asthetic ,(minatures art and narrative) provide enough 'pull ' to grab the interest of new customers.
And the store staff are capable of helping them along...
All great so far.
So where does it all fall down?

What keeps the gamers engaged with a companies products?
Gameplay .

And 40k has been developed specificaly for children (11 to 16 yo).
The focus is NOT on long term gameplay.

This is why over 80% of GW customers leave before 18 months, and less than 35% of customers ever play the GW games.(Taken from from GW plc official reports.)

GW plc seem to emphasis thier strenghts , and ignore thier weeknesses.

Tom kirby belives GW is in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children .(Everything has beeen adjusted to this end , including rule sets.)

GW plc would be far better off if it was in the buisness of promoting a hobby, driven by great gameplay , supported with quality minatures and hobby suplies.IMO.

Dude, you just jumped to a conclusion. 35% of customers may be active Hobbyists. But those other 65%? Parents, Grandparents, Gift buyers in general. Plus those who enjoy building and painting models.

How exactly does pissing around with the rules of the game change that? The conclusion you jumped to is that 100% of buyers are in fact hobbyists, therefore that 65% then apparently do nowt with said purchases?

I have a collected many armies over the years and when they have released new models I have upgraded my armies because the models look better (Dark Eldar, Blood Angels etc).

Up until recently I spent regularly on armies because I like growing my armies, painting and converting. I enjoy all aspects of the hobby from unwinding by painting to hanging out with my mates playing games.

In my case release of good models and armies will keep this Vet spending. Also great looking terrain.

I would love to see a return to independant games shops and clubs here in Australia as I avoid GW's store like the plague.

I also miss Necromunda as no one I know plays it anymore. Was one of the best games they ever put out in my opinion (not a big earner for GW though).

Gorkka Morkka was a great game too, anyone remember that?

Back in the late 80's & 90's the hobby was better than today, however the models and range are superior today.

Love the hobby, hate the current company sums it up best for me.

Then why not set up your own club then fella?

Granted it's a bit labour intensive at first (boards, location etc) but it's well worth it.

Mr Mystery.
GW plc corperate managment use those statistics to refute the need to spend resouces on actual game development.

Thefore since GW plc CEO, gave the directive 'GW is in the buisness of selling toy soldier to children'.
The devs can only 'piss about' with the rules of 40k and WHFB.
Focusing on increasing product required to play , and re-writing rules for 'children'.

If you have a great game , people keep playing it.
(A poll in Wargames Illustrated showed most gamers kept with thier favorite games for an average of 8 years.Not Just 18 months.)

But if you can replace the leaving customers with new ones , it doesnt matter about the quality of the rules.

However , as GW plc has suffered falling sales volumes for the last 5 years running.

Perhaps it is time to re-view GW plcs buisness pratices, and thier low priority on game play issues?

During the period of GW greatest growth, (1995 to 1997 ,) game development was left to the game developers.
During the preiod of GW greatest drop in sales volumes , (2005 to 2011) game development was dictated by corperate directives.

Are these 2 factors linked, I belive so.
There is NOTHING wrong with GW plcs products or staff.

Its just the inane way GW corpetrate managers market the products and direct the staff, that I have issue with.

So your intimately familiar with the staff training that goes within GW?

Mr Mystery.
I am aware of the training that GW give to varoius members of staff.As I have freinds that work(ed) in various positions within the company.

I dont have an issue with the training.(Most of the staff appear to be doing a good job under less than favorable circumstance.)

Just the directives that appear to interfere /impede staff performance, in relation to delivering on customer expectations.

So you rely on hearsay completely then yes?

Fair enough. And I think your friends may not have been working for GW in the past 12 months. Massive changes last March...

March 2011?

Mr Mystery wrote:Then why not set up your own club then fella?

Granted it's a bit labour intensive at first (boards, location etc) but it's well worth it.

Starting my own club is not viable as I work a 24/7 shift rotation and am on call.

Hence I am cash rich and time poor. It hard to line up games with friends let alone run a club.

Got a lot of good memories of GW over the years.

I just feel sad with the way it all gone of late.

Kilkrazy wrote:March 2011?

March 2010. Sorry for confusion. So that makes it 15 months.

Having worked for GW well before then, and then from Jan 2010 to October 2010, there is a world of difference in the staff training, and indeed how the shops are run. Far more consistency.

Interesting.

It was poor levels of staff training that GW gave as a reason for their below par performance in the first half of their last fiscal year.

Which more or less fits with the introduction of the new ways.

Not sure I can into it in detail in public, but happy to explain more over PM.

Mr Mystery.
As staff training is not the main issue of contention , as far as I am concerned.
And GW plc stating staff training was responcible for poor performance, was probably just the next page on Kirby's book of excuses. (Here is a something else we can tell them we are changing for the good of the company.... to keep them off our backs.)

As stated before I have no problem with GW staff.(Studio-retail-or manufacturing, as some of them are my freinds!)
Just the decisions made by 'Kirby and co'.

It is possible to appeal to a wider range of customers , by providung better value for money.
This is NOT just retail price.
But retail price vs 'total experiance'.

As the majority of the current target demoghraphic dont get the full experiance, before they leave.
They may view the experiance as negative.

Would you agree it would be much better if more people played 40k/WHFB for longer, to get the full benifit of the games?

In the the retail vs overall enjoyment category i feel very conflicted... because i do feel that it is a little pricey to field a decent sized army, but then again i sat for an hour just looking at my new leman russ that i bought and built saying "woooooow". You see, i have a leman russ from 05 i believe and this one just looks unbelievably better, i mean alot. so part of me is mad about how much things cost, but part of me is also like "its pricey, but dang thats cool". But i agree with lanrak, if someone doesnt get to play the game, or paint and collect a full army, i think that the models will not give the full experience required to make them worth their money, imho.

Lots of other companies add value like this.

Stage ONE.
Starter rule set , usualy a skirmish game with a few minatures , clear concise rules , that deliver GREAT tactical game play.
(EG CBT starter rules.)
This gets them playing and having fun , 5 mins after opening the box...down loading the rules !

This lets casual gamers that want a fast fun skrimish game to engage and enjoy at a minumum level.
(Positive experiance!)

Some people want to move up the the next level.

Stage 2.
Bigger more detailed game , more minatures and more detaled inter-action in the rules.

Stage 3
Basic 'full game'.
This lets gamers move to a more involving game.If they dont like it they can simply drop back to a previous rule set that suits them better.
Having played this for a while they can try / pick up an add on pack...

Stage 4a.
Tournament pack.
The full game with required perameters for competative players...

Stage 4b
Senarios pack.
The full game with detailed narrative missions , for more background focused players...

This way ALL customers can find thier own level and progress in the hobby at a pace and direction they want.(Lots of people persuing thier hobby how they want.)

NOTE the rules are the same throughout.Just added to, to increase the game play in the direction the customer wants...

Just a thought...

htj wrote:All I can add to this is my own experience, something I suspect should be the case with many posters. I could barely afford to spend anything on hobby stuff when I was new, and a kid. Now that I am an adult, with a job, and a good handle on my money, I spend significantly more. So in this case: Veteran spends more than Newcomer. The pattern is the same for my friends, too.

Indeed, I could never have afforded this nonsense when I was their target demo. Now that I'm an adult, I sort of can.

Ouze wrote:
Indeed, I could never have afforded this nonsense when I was their target demo. Now that I'm an adult, I sort of can.

And isn't that the biggest irony of all - when I was a kid I loved GW unconditionally (as much as it is possible for a kid to love a corporation) yet couldn't really afford much of the product. Now I am an adult and with disposable income to spend, I am actively seeking other manufacturers to spend my money on.

I agree guys.
The products GW plc sell are more suited to 'mature gamers and collectors', than Children.
Children appear to be seen as the easiest demoghraphic to appeal too by GW plc.
So GW plc try to sell thier product to the easiet to please rather then those most likley to fully engage with them.

And in re-writing the rules to appeal to children , they negativley affect the retention potential of the gameplay!

filbert wrote:

Ouze wrote:
Indeed, I could never have afforded this nonsense when I was their target demo. Now that I'm an adult, I sort of can.

And isn't that the biggest irony of all - when I was a kid I loved GW unconditionally (as much as it is possible for a kid to love a corporation) yet couldn't really afford much of the product. Now I am an adult and with disposable income to spend, I am actively seeking other manufacturers to spend my money on.

Whilst I still spend in ocassional spikes with GW, a lot of my spending has migrated too. As a young 'un, I was fanatically devoted to GW, but now they compete with Privateer Press, and many other miniatures companies, for my money.

hjt.
That is exactly my point.
GWplc have produced game worlds the children (of all ages,)can totaly engage with and some fall in love with the visual style and narrative .

That is enough to get the NEW /YOUNG customers interested in alot of cases.

Back In 2nd ed alot of younger players ASPIRED to learn the rules, but just used the rules they knew+ some fudges to get playing.(Because the background was so engaging.)
The rules are NOT all that important to children -collectors.

But ther are very important to gamers.

Writing the rules to appeal to the customers that dont care about them, seems to be a rather self defeating practice.

And as most other companies that write rules focused on gameplay, seem to be growing thier customer base.(Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic Games, etc.)

This seems to be one of the most obvious areas of concern.

I will introduce at this point some possibly interesting data from Google Trends.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Warhammer&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Searches for Warhammer

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Games+Workshop&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Searches for Games Workshop

http://www.google.com/trends?q=40K&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Searches for 40K

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Privateer+Press&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Searches for Privateer Press

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Infinity+the+Game&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
Searches for Infinity the Game

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Games+Workshop%2C+Privateer+Press&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Searches for Games Workshop and searches for Privateer Press
This shows that while GW is still a much larger volume than PP, it is trending down while PP is trending up.

That is some very interesting information, thanks Kilkrazy. I wonder if GW are looking at the same data, their own downward trend in particular. It could explain why they're making various desperate moves, despite their healthy profits. Maybe they're trying to ward off a perceive downturn in the future.

-100 internet points to the first person who makes a Mat Ward pun there.

I just want to add that it was Legoburner who found out the Google Trends and we were discussing it in the Moderator forum.

However, the info is freely available to anyone who wants to look it up on Google, so there is no reason to keep it secret.