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So...what's this make...the fifth or sixth PR debacle in two months?

Rymafyr wrote:So...what's this make...the fifth or sixth PR debacle in two months?

One, this is a rumor...

Two, how is this a PR debacle? A few angrypants who never attended these events int he first place because they don't buy GW products or don;t go to GW stores does not a PR debacle make.

It was a neat event idea that didn't pan out and they don't want to do it anymore as the business case for it do not seem to outweigh the risks associated with it. Not every promotion to boost sales works or is a good one. If an independant retailer feels there is money to be made from running a bitz trade event, the floor is open to them.

While I agree that a few of GW's recent policy decisions have been poorly implemented, or at least poorly presented, I think this is one where the impact will be pretty minimal and seems to be prompted by the notion that these events are too low value and/or risky from GW's perspective to be worth running.

The grumbling of the grognards is to be expected but you don't need many kids to get ripped off (even just perceptually so) at any of these events to get parents riled. And parental wrath, given they're the ones bankrolling a good chunk of GW's sales, is to be avoided. The press don't really give a hoot about whether late teen/adult wargamers are missing out on some sort of retail sanctioned swap-shop. They're always eager for 'my kid wiz robbed' sorts of stories.

That said, I do think it's a bit of an overreaction on GW's part to just ban all such events. But companies with geographically widespread operations tend to have 'one size fits all' policies in regard to these things.

In relation to a post above, it seems (after interrogating my local manager under the bright lights of the shop this afternoon) that one does indeed have to book a 'painting session' (though yesterday I saw a kid who was just quietly painting away with no instruction or supervision whatsoever) but of the shop's three tables, two are always free for turn up and play unless the shop is having some kind of Saturday event or they have been pre-booked by gamers, and all three are available in the evenings for booking or turn up and play.

Now I freely confess my recent experience of other GW shops is minimal and it's possible this chap is just a maverick. But he's friendly and always ready to help and the shop has a nice atmosphere. I'm afraid I didn't ask him about 'swapping' events but I'm not actually aware of there ever having been any in this shop -- there may have been and I might have missed them.

nkelsch wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:So...what's this make...the fifth or sixth PR debacle in two months?

One, this is a rumor...

Not according to BrassScorpion in post 2. If it's a company-wide e-mail then it's news.

As to a rumor it is true
but the better question is why are parents not watching there kids

and could you not just fix the whole thing buy

1- having an age minimum say 16

2- and if under said minimum have an adult with you?

how hard is it to card a teenager? problem solved?

just my two cents.

SilverMK2 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Did they explain why?

They must love the feeling of buckshot on their lower legs, because they just can't stop pulling that trigger...

I'm surprised there is anything left below the waist to be honest

Doesn't seem to be much above the neck either.

nkelsch wrote:how is this a PR debacle? A few angrypants who never attended these events int he first place because they don't buy GW products or don;t go to GW stores does not a PR debacle make.

Their recent activities - White Dwarf changes, regional sales crackdown, discouraging internet sales, limited finecast sales locations, etc. - all intend to drive/push customers and potential customers to their corporate stores. So eliminating something that is viewed as 'delighter' by most customers (whether they actually participate or not) is contary and destructive to all the other things they are doing. Excusing destructive behavior as it's a bunch of angry internet people is getting old...actions have consequences.

Given the consistent nature of GW to do any and everything they can to piss off their customer base, ya...I'd say removing one of the only well liked reasons for going into a GW retail location is a debacle. Now granted it's likely more an issue for you UK fellas, as we here in the US don't usually have to worry about a GW retail location being anywhere close. Not one in all of Minnesota thankfully.

Thanks wazgold for reminding nkelsch of this actually being 'News' and not 'Rumor'. Given the thread only has 2 pages (at the time of this writing) I'd think everyone would have seen that.

Seriously?

There is no conspiracy theory here. All that they want to do is to shy away from the old way of kitbashing, conversions, and being involved with second hand market product.

The corperation groupthink is to "Sell products off the shelf and make the target numbers, no more, no less." You can't do that when your consumer is trying to scout out and get a deal from little timmy, who- quite frankly is just trying to GET OUT OF THE "HOBBY" when you as a mindless GW drone are trying to keep the lemmings in line.

The side order of "Looking out and saving people from themselves" has nothing to do with it.

At the shop trades, who really was the one making any money off of the things being sold? It sure wasn't GW. Hence- If it is not enhancing MY sales, why would I let you make money in MY shop?


As a third thought as well- The trades wern't being done INSIDE the shop at the one I went to. they had a couple of tables set up, away from the main racks and the gaming tables. You brought in what you wanted to trade, others brought in what they wanted to trade, and then you BOTH were left to do what thou wilst. GW really didn't get involved, all they had was the tables set up- the same tables that people already painted and modeled on, as it were.


That point about Mommy coming in and complaining about her mispriced love being undersold is one of those spook stories that redshirts use to scare thier kids at night to get them to go to sleep with. I'm going to have to call BS on that, and if not- provide numbers of cheated newblets being taken for a ride.


The trade was just an offshoot of what people do IRL, where I and a mate buy a new boxed set of whatever FOTM box that we buy and trade armies. I get the Orks, he gets the Space Marines, and if someone comes along who wants to get into the game, we both get what we want, and we both are happy. There IS no "Hey he traded me a plasma pistol for a space marine commander! I've been cheated!"

Bits tradeing is part in parcel of buying GW, them being too cool and trying to dictate to you the terms of your army, and is pretty much spot on part in parcel for GW groupthink, just like every other bonehead play that they are making to render thier "Hobby Centers" irrelevent.


I'm neither suprised, nor outraged with thier continueous passive/aggressive abusive girlfriend tactics.

They beat you because they love you.

Trade/sell in the parking lot. Done. BITD some of our local game stores (not GW) would let you trade MTG in-store, but preferred you did your cash transactions outside

Rymafyr wrote:Given the consistent nature of GW to do any and everything they can to piss off their customer base, ya...I'd say removing one of the only well liked reasons for going into a GW retail location is a debacle.

And that even the best run bitz trade event makes for a chaotic situation which is hard to manage and is a cover for theft. If you want to run a bitz trade in your retail store and risk mass shoplifting, be my guest.

All of the risks do not outweigh the rewards it seems... And since these events maybe happen once or twice a year at most, how much is GW actually losing and how much of a service are people losing? I don't even see how this is bad PR as most of the actual customers who go to the store don't even know what a bitz-trade is and isn't going to miss it. They simply don't have the event and the world moves on. The only outrage is on internet forums amongst people who 'remember' these events existing. Sure they can be disappointed, but they can also be unreasonable and selfish...

Again, internet people overestimating their view as the entire customer base and assuming everyone or even a majority of GWs customers react the unreasonable way they do. It simply is not the case. Saying this is a PR debacle is a gross over-exaggeration.

Every Swap Meet type format at the LA Battle Bunker I went to was practically pandemonium in regards to how crowded/busy and crazy it got...It isn't practical to keep an eye over every trade/deal and some people were even taking stuff outside and just giving cash because the register lines were so long.

The stores are not currently set up to appropriately support a flea market style event I don't think so *shrug*. Rather than do something half-hearted its sometimes better to not do it at all and maybe this is what stemmed the decision.

Artemo wrote:While I agree that a few of GW's recent policy decisions have been poorly implemented, or at least poorly presented, I think this is one where the impact will be pretty minimal and seems to be prompted by the notion that these events are too low value and/or risky from GW's perspective to be worth running.

You only say this as you live in the UK (as do I). We have never had this "thing" so there is nothing to miss, which you noted in an earlier post. The US market, who this is applicable to, will feel this more than us who never had the service.

BrassScorpion wrote:

An email memo went around today stating that as of now "Bizarre Bazaar" type customer flea markets are strictly forbidden at GW stores.
.

really? no more Bizarre Bazaar? I got some cool stuff out of those...

Well, I did "rip off" a GW staff some time ago. But as said above, it's the manager's/staff job to oversee
that kids aren't getting ripped off. Maybe the kids themselves had enough of the price hikes and started organized trades?

Grot 6 Wrote:

Seriously?

There is no conspiracy theory here. All that they want to do is to shy away from the old way of kitbashing, conversions, and being involved with second hand market product.

I agree Considering the aspect. It has been getting harder and harder effectively kit bash in a cost saving manner.

The corperation groupthink is to "Sell products off the shelf and make the target numbers, no more, no less." You can't do that when your consumer is trying to scout out and get a deal from little timmy, who- quite frankly is just trying to GET OUT OF THE "HOBBY" when you as a mindless GW drone are trying to keep the lemmings in line.

Got to agree with that statment as well as I am seeing this in my region concerning the corporate edict being imposed on to the hobby in general

The side order of "Looking out and saving people from themselves" has nothing to do with it.

Standard BS comment coming from corporate office to deflect the real reason of not having bit days at their store.

At the shop trades, who really was the one making any money off of the things being sold? It sure wasn't GW. Hence- If it is not enhancing MY sales, why would I let you make money in MY shop?

Not sure about this comment since in my region when you make a trade in bits the person receiving the money does in a manner that you get store credit. This means that you are using your money to buy GW products.

As a third thought as well- The trades wern't being done INSIDE the shop at the one I went to. they had a couple of tables set up, away from the main racks and the gaming tables. You brought in what you wanted to trade, others brought in what they wanted to trade, and then you BOTH were left to do what thou wilst. GW really didn't get involved, all they had was the tables set up- the same tables that people already painted and modeled on, as it were.

See previous post.

That point about Mommy coming in and complaining about her mispriced love being undersold is one of those spook stories that redshirts use to scare thier kids at night to get them to go to sleep with. I'm going to have to call BS on that, and if not- provide numbers of cheated newblets being taken for a ride.

I will call this BS as well with a caveat. It might have happened. The odds are that it indeed happened, however considering the hundreds of thousands of transactions over the years, the corporation is using this rare problem for their crux of their argument. I have never seen or heard of this problem at my region.

The trade was just an offshoot of what people do IRL, where I and a mate buy a new boxed set of whatever FOTM box that we buy and trade armies. I get the Orks, he gets the Space Marines, and if someone comes along who wants to get into the game, we both get what we want, and we both are happy. There IS no "Hey he traded me a plasma pistol for a space marine commander! I've been cheated!"

Again I agree with this statement as I have been doing bits buying for years in my region.

Bits tradeing is part in parcel of buying GW, them being too cool and trying to dictate to you the terms of your army, and is pretty much spot on part in parcel for GW groupthink, just like every other bonehead play that they are making to render thier "Hobby Centers" irrelevent.

I'm neither suprised, nor outraged with thier continueous passive/aggressive abusive girlfriend tactics.

They beat you because they love you.

They are doing this as part of their close source economic/marketing plan to control as much as possible, every aspect of the game.
They are not making as much money by doing this than selling new models.
And that is the reason why I believe that there will be no more bits trading days at GW.

I heard about this "ban" maybe a year ago from my local GW manager. The reason he gave me was much more plausible. Many states require a license or permit such as those for a flea market when any cash changes hands. This is why, in addition to the added benefit of retail sales, they made transactions in exchange for gift cards. Without the ability to oversee all transactions in one man stores, many people were simply agreeing on price and stepping outside to change cash for product. This could result in fines/sanctions without the aforementioned permits. For this reason they decided it wasn't worth the risk despite the huge number of sales it generated. Personally I sold my tyrannids at one for enough to order my warhound titan from the local gw bunker. (this is when I lived in Seattle, not since I moved to California in the last 6 months)

So when do they start going after 3rd party bitz sites?

AgeOfEgos wrote:

automatonsleuth wrote:

Artemo wrote:In my local GW you can still play on the tables in the shops and people are often painting in the shop. Maybe things are different outside the UK.

The one-man stores up here are pretty strict about playing and painting: the only painting allowed is painting introductary sessions, and pre-arranged painting lessons with the staff chappy. Additionally, about 60% of the board space in the shop is reserved for intro games, except on gaming evenings, where the players are given a whopping 60% (</sarcasm&gt of the store's table space to play on.

You may not be able to play there, paint there, only open 5 days a week, GW items are more expensive there and you can't trade bits there.



You're not much use to me alive, are you retail shops?

That's who we need to send in to clean up GWs upper management.


"Feed em to the pigs Harold"

H.B.M.C. wrote:So when do they start going after 3rd party bitz sites?

Cant. What someone does with their items once opened isnt in GW's domain, no matter how far reaching GW thinks they have control over items.

Once the shrink wrap is off, its out of their hands.

carmachu wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:So when do they start going after 3rd party bitz sites?

Cant. What someone does with their items once opened isnt in GW's domain, no matter how far reaching GW thinks they have control over items.
Once the shrink wrap is off, its out of their hands.

They can also go for manufacturers doing mythical beasts or shoulder pads with arrows. They probably know they wouldn't have a chance in court, but usually small companies don't know either.

BTW, the GW website officially states that all conversions are illegal in principle. Maybe their next PR gag is to enforce this

I like to see them try to enforce this concerning conversions.

Very serious ramifications if they do.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW, the GW website officially states that all conversions are illegal in principle. Maybe their next PR gag is to enforce this

Show me this on the website. I can't find it, and I kind of doubt there is an official statement that conversions are illegal. I call Shenanigans if no evidence is forthcoming.

Is true Kriswall

To be fair to GW they do say that while technically it would breach their IP rights, GW thinks it is okay for conversions to happen, stated in a creepy trendy vicar way.

I think it is also a euphemism for, "We don't have a gakk in Hell chance of enforcing" /cynicism

Actually... just found it on the site. Here's the quote...

"Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby. "

Strictly speaking, creating a new model by way of conversion is infringement. However, GW is pretty clear above that they don't mind this and that it's a "major part of the hobby". Nowhere do they even imply that they don't want people to do conversions.

Also... reselling an unmodified bit falls under the First Sale Doctrine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine)

Reselling a modified bit is infringement. Selling a newly created bit designed to be compatible may or may not be infringement depending on how closely it resembles the original works. Chapterhouse Studio's new "Not Eldar" models are probably going to be ruled infringing. Some of their replacement heads probably won't. The infringement is decided on a case by case basis.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=4

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

Doh ya ninja'd me

lol... sorry!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=4

For example, whilst most companies would not allow you to convert their products, we think that conversions are an integral part of the hobby, so we love them!

Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.
Casting

Do not cast any materials that are based upon Games Workshop material. Games Workshop has to maintain a strict policy on this to fight counterfeiters. We would also remind you that reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide.

Blimey
You wait ages for a piece of evidence and then several turn up all at once!

Also... it's important to notice that the "Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties" bit is a request and can be safely ignored without violating any laws.

It's perfectly fair for them to ask. Doesn't keep my Vanguard Veterans from having bitchin' third party Heresy Era jump packs. I can't use them in a GW store as they aren't official product, but that also is fair. They, rightly so, want to be able to sell everything a potential customer sees on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
lol... thanks for the backup BrassScorpion. Hopefully, I'll see you at the Bowie Bunker tomorrow!