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4M2A wrote:

Also, if we count in the Word Bearer's actions during the Horus Heresy, then I'd rate them as Number 5 or higher. I was just rating their accomplishments after the Heresy. They haven't done much beyond set up cults and take place in the Black Crusades, which almost every other Legion has down since then.

Huh?

If we rate them including actions during the heresy then it is definately the Word bearers are easily number 1 seeing that they started the heresy.

They started it but without the other Legions it would've gone nowhere. They'd probably be number 2 if we include stuff during the Heresy. Also, the Word Bearer thing is only my opinion. From my perspective it looks like they've become content to stay in the Eye of Terror and worship the Chaos Gods rather than attempt to overtake the Imperium.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

Isn't stealth, sneakiness and hiding what they do the Alpha Legions strength? I'm just saying if they are able to hide thier presence and even be declared extinct and still carry out thier operations (which nobody knows about) a success?

Conservationist wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

Isn't stealth, sneakiness and hiding what they do the Alpha Legions strength? I'm just saying if they are able to hide thier presence and even be declared extinct and still carry out thier operations (which nobody knows about) a success?

No. When you're mortal enemy says you're not even a threat that's a clue that you suck.

They say that because
1: They don't see the Alpha Legion, they see the cults and operatives they leave behind.
2: They don't want to admit that they can't destroy them after 10'000 years of trying.

The Black Legion recruite EVERYONE, so they've got massive strength in numbers, and they have the Lost and the Damned.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gavo wrote:. On the second-most heavily fortified planet in the Imperium (barring Terra).

Mars?

Derp. Forgot about that.

It's possible that the Alpha Legion is the most accomplished, if the fan theory about them infiltrating the Ultramarines is to be believed.

Without looking at fan theories, though, I think the toughest would be the Black Legion, if only because they're the ones who beat the other Legions into line every time Abaddon wants to go crusading.

Small, Far Away wrote:The Black Legion recruite EVERYONE, so they've got massive strength in numbers, and they have the Lost and the Damned.

However it is mentioned in the Night Lords 2nd book that the traitors, especially the lost and the damned flock to the maelstrom to join huron and that huron blackheart has a force that rivals that of abbadon. wonder where the lost and the damned go to most, the original legions or the corsairs.

I think that the Word Bearers would be the most accomplished, perhaps slightly less powerful; than the Black Legion.

While most people would percieve the Black Legion as the most successful, we must remember that it was the Kor Phaeron and Erebus that instigated the Horus Heresy. While they failed to destroy the Imperium, perhaps that was not their ultimate intent. Before the heresy, relatively few within the human race(s) knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods let alone worshipped them. The ruinous powers probably needed more energy from mortal emotions in order to survive, and the trillions of lives of the new imperium would provide enough worship in order to sustain them. After the heresy the imperium was saturated with cults offering them strength, and the threat that the Emporer himself posed was ostensibly eradicated. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and in turn the legion itself, are pawns of Chaos that have been instrumental in ensuring the survival and improved sustenance of their dark masters, whether wittingly in or not. In this sense the Word Bearers, or at least their overlords, have been more successful than the Black Legion ever was (Horus was a tool to be manipulated by Erebus in order to act as a figurehead and a source of authority in order to carry out his will).

The Word Bearers are currently the most organised and united of the Chaos Legions, ruled from the Eye of Terror by the Dark Council, not comprised of individual warbands but as allied Hosts under a common authority and also devoid of schisms in regard to their differing allegiances to the gods, as they all serve the Dark Pantheon. The Word Bearers are to blame for the imperium's slow death, and Lorgar is ultimately responsible for the Imperial Cult, which is also the reason for his eventual betrayal (or enlightenment). Regarding their power, they may not have so much as the Warmaster Abbadon, but orchestrate countless cults on almost every world they have ever held possession of and (this is very important) maintain a firm grasp over their own legion. Most other legions have dispersed and separated into warbands led by volatile lords concerned only for their own goals (sometimes rival warbands of the same legion fight one another) while the Word Bearers are united by cause, belief and leadership.

That's just my five cents

Black legion

world eaters

death guard

alpha legion

thousand sons

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Alpha Legion is at the bottom. They're so inactive they've been declared extinct several times.

Thats just because they are so good. I would put money on the Night Lords being at the bottom.

Deathly Angel wrote:I think that the Word Bearers would be the most accomplished, perhaps slightly less powerful; than the Black Legion.

While most people would percieve the Black Legion as the most successful, we must remember that it was the Kor Phaeron and Erebus that instigated the Horus Heresy. While they failed to destroy the Imperium, perhaps that was not their ultimate intent. Before the heresy, relatively few within the human race(s) knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods let alone worshipped them. The ruinous powers probably needed more energy from mortal emotions in order to survive, and the trillions of lives of the new imperium would provide enough worship in order to sustain them. After the heresy the imperium was saturated with cults offering them strength, and the threat that the Emporer himself posed was ostensibly eradicated. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and in turn the legion itself, are pawns of Chaos that have been instrumental in ensuring the survival and improved sustenance of their dark masters, whether wittingly in or not. In this sense the Word Bearers, or at least their overlords, have been more successful than the Black Legion ever was (Horus was a tool to be manipulated by Erebus in order to act as a figurehead and a source of authority in order to carry out his will).

The Word Bearers are currently the most organised and united of the Chaos Legions, ruled from the Eye of Terror by the Dark Council, not comprised of individual warbands but as allied Hosts under a common authority and also devoid of schisms in regard to their differing allegiances to the gods, as they all serve the Dark Pantheon. The Word Bearers are to blame for the imperium's slow death, and Lorgar is ultimately responsible for the Imperial Cult, which is also the reason for his eventual betrayal (or enlightenment). Regarding their power, they may not have so much as the Warmaster Abbadon, but orchestrate countless cults on almost every world they have ever held possession of and (this is very important) maintain a firm grasp over their own legion. Most other legions have dispersed and separated into warbands led by volatile lords concerned only for their own goals (sometimes rival warbands of the same legion fight one another) while the Word Bearers are united by cause, belief and leadership.

That's just my five cents

The Imperium is responsible for its own stagnation, not the Word Bearers. While Lorgar tried to start Emperor worship, the Emperor stopped him. The High Lords started the Imperial Cult hundreds of years later to keep the Imperium in line. The only dispersed Legions are the World eaters, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Emperor's Children. The Alpha Legion set up and use just as many cults as the Word Bearers, and the activities of the gods' chosen legions sustain them more than a group worshipping all of them together.

I'm not sure about the Horus=pawn thing, but it seems unlikely IMO.

Durza wrote:

Deathly Angel wrote:I think that the Word Bearers would be the most accomplished, perhaps slightly less powerful; than the Black Legion.

While most people would percieve the Black Legion as the most successful, we must remember that it was the Kor Phaeron and Erebus that instigated the Horus Heresy. While they failed to destroy the Imperium, perhaps that was not their ultimate intent. Before the heresy, relatively few within the human race(s) knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods let alone worshipped them. The ruinous powers probably needed more energy from mortal emotions in order to survive, and the trillions of lives of the new imperium would provide enough worship in order to sustain them. After the heresy the imperium was saturated with cults offering them strength, and the threat that the Emporer himself posed was ostensibly eradicated. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and in turn the legion itself, are pawns of Chaos that have been instrumental in ensuring the survival and improved sustenance of their dark masters, whether wittingly in or not. In this sense the Word Bearers, or at least their overlords, have been more successful than the Black Legion ever was (Horus was a tool to be manipulated by Erebus in order to act as a figurehead and a source of authority in order to carry out his will).

The Word Bearers are currently the most organised and united of the Chaos Legions, ruled from the Eye of Terror by the Dark Council, not comprised of individual warbands but as allied Hosts under a common authority and also devoid of schisms in regard to their differing allegiances to the gods, as they all serve the Dark Pantheon. The Word Bearers are to blame for the imperium's slow death, and Lorgar is ultimately responsible for the Imperial Cult, which is also the reason for his eventual betrayal (or enlightenment). Regarding their power, they may not have so much as the Warmaster Abbadon, but orchestrate countless cults on almost every world they have ever held possession of and (this is very important) maintain a firm grasp over their own legion. Most other legions have dispersed and separated into warbands led by volatile lords concerned only for their own goals (sometimes rival warbands of the same legion fight one another) while the Word Bearers are united by cause, belief and leadership.

That's just my five cents

The Imperium is responsible for its own stagnation, not the Word Bearers. While Lorgar tried to start Emperor worship, the Emperor stopped him. The High Lords started the Imperial Cult hundreds of years later to keep the Imperium in line. The only dispersed Legions are the World eaters, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Emperor's Children. The Alpha Legion set up and use just as many cults as the Word Bearers, and the activities of the gods' chosen legions sustain them more than a group worshipping all of them together.

I'm not sure about the Horus=pawn thing, but it seems unlikely IMO.

A few things. The Imperium has stagnated because of The Heresy. Which Legion started it? The Word Bearers. Which Legion IS responsible for The Imperial Cult? The Word Bearers. Lorgar wrote the Imperiums Bible and started the worship of The Emperor as a god amongst the people. There are nine Traitor Legion. All of them have largely dispersed barring three, the Word Bearers, The Iron Warriors and The Black Legion. The rest are split up into small warbands and hosts, serving their own agendas. I'm sorry if you can't admit that The Word Bearers have done some pretty decent things.

Durza wrote:The Imperium is responsible for its own stagnation, not the Word Bearers. While Lorgar tried to start Emperor worship, the Emperor stopped him. The High Lords started the Imperial Cult hundreds of years later to keep the Imperium in line. The only dispersed Legions are the World eaters, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Emperor's Children. The Alpha Legion set up and use just as many cults as the Word Bearers, and the activities of the gods' chosen legions sustain them more than a group worshipping all of them together.

I'm not sure about the Horus=pawn thing, but it seems unlikely IMO.

Lorgar wrote the document that became the basis of the Imperial cult. The idea of the Emperor's divinity started spreading during the Heresy. The High Lords merely adopted it. I'd put Word Bearers after Black Legion.


World Eaters = completely shattered, random bands of berserkers
Emperor's Children = completely shattered, random bands of thrill-seekers
Night Lords = completely shattered, random bands of murderers and sadists
Thousand Sons = only about a thousand survived the transition to the Planet of the Sorcerers, Rubric culls most of those (in Battle for the Fang, the remnant brings along 600-700 Rubric marines, so there are a few hundred sorcerers left at best), and their best and brightest have been exiled and are pursuing their own agenda
Iron Warriors = united, but lost "thousands" of warriors on Damantyne and then again in their failed attempt to crush Ultramar
Death Guard = splintered as Typhon and other Captains fly around doing their own thing, although it all comes down to spreading Nurgle's love around
Alpha Legion = I am Alpharius. Your mom is also Alpharius. Oh, and your dog, he's Alpharius too.

The Word bearers are the ones responsible for the Imperial Cult. It's based on Lorgar's book and it was mainly his actions that allowed it to survive. If he hadn't supported it the Emperor would still be around and would have stopped it.

Why are the World Eaters lower than the BL? Their attacks get further than abbadons crusades, plus Angron is the only primarch actually doing anything. His attacks are infrequent but they are a serious threat- look what happened to the GKs when they tried to stop him last time.

I'm almost positive there is a direct quote in either the 3rd ed chaos codex or IA that states "Horus was used as a pawn of the gods." As far as the Thousand Sons warbands other than Ahriman they really have nothing going on other than selling themselves to other legions causes. The Alpha Legion apparently aren't so awesome either one of their primarchs got smacked down by guillman and the lack of evidence of actions by them doesn't mean they're awesome if were using that theory the Iron Hands kick ass ike no other.

Also +1 to the guy who mentioned the Emperors Children crippling Guillman



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm almost positive there is a direct quote in either the 3rd ed chaos codex or IA that states "Horus was used as a pawn of the gods." As far as the Thousand Sons warbands other than Ahriman they really have nothing going on other than selling themselves to other legions causes. The Alpha Legion apparently aren't so awesome either one of their primarchs got smacked down by guillman and the lack of evidence of actions by them doesn't mean they're awesome if were using that theory the Iron Hands kick ass ike no other.

Also +1 to the guy who mentioned the Emperors Children crippling Guillman

inharntdispoile wrote:Hi guys me and my friend are trying to create chaos armies and we wanted you guys opinion on which legion to theme it after, and we wanted to theme based on the most powerful actual gameplay wise and flluff wise as well.

IMHO i feel that gameplay wise it i think that the Thousand sons is are pretty decent, but haven't seemed to do much fluff wise, so if if could get as many outside opinons as possible i would really appreciate it

lets just say the black legion are the chaos version of the ultrasmufs

just my two cents...

I'd have to agree with the idea that the Black Legion is the most powerful. Despite the perceived inadequacies of Abaddon and the Black Crusades, the Black Legion are amongst the largest and most organised of the remaining Legions whilst arguably also being the most active of the (intact) Legions.
Similarly, the Black Legion receive the favour of all of the Chaos gods it seems.
It probably should be pointed out that they were very near collapse at one point however.

I think it should be said that the Word Bearers could arguably be the most powerful due to how they maintain the majority of the heresy-era size and organisation and therefore haven't divided as much as other Legions.

Eliliketheanchor wrote:I'm almost positive there is a direct quote in either the 3rd ed chaos codex or IA that states "Horus was used as a pawn of the gods." As far as the Thousand Sons warbands other than Ahriman they really have nothing going on other than selling themselves to other legions causes. The Alpha Legion apparently aren't so awesome either one of their primarchs got smacked down by guillman and the lack of evidence of actions by them doesn't mean they're awesome if were using that theory the Iron Hands kick ass ike no other.

Also +1 to the guy who mentioned the Emperors Children crippling Guillman

As much as I am a fan of Guilliman and his Legion, he did not kill Alpharius. Even the Ultramarines do not believe he killed Alpharius. Also, there is plenty of evidence of the Alpha Legion's activities. Pretty much any major insurrection, rebellion, outbreak of Chaos worship, etc. can be traced to an Alpha Legion demagogue of some sort or another. The rest are the work of Recongregationists and/or Istvaanists, with a small left-over margin being genuinely driven by the native population.

A greater daemon making an utter pathetic tool out of Fulgrim (that pansy), does not = "Emperor's children crippling Guilliman".

i would say that the Black Legion is the most successful. being able to unite the legions and launch 13 separate crusades is pretty impressive, ince none have been able to do something like that before.

I'd honestly say Alpha Legion because so little is known about them.

That's amazing reasoning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:

4M2A wrote:

Also, if we count in the Word Bearer's actions during the Horus Heresy, then I'd rate them as Number 5 or higher. I was just rating their accomplishments after the Heresy. They haven't done much beyond set up cults and take place in the Black Crusades, which almost every other Legion has down since then.

Huh?

If we rate them including actions during the heresy then it is definately the Word bearers are easily number 1 seeing that they started the heresy.

They started it but without the other Legions it would've gone nowhere. They'd probably be number 2 if we include stuff during the Heresy. Also, the Word Bearer thing is only my opinion. From my perspective it looks like they've become content to stay in the Eye of Terror and worship the Chaos Gods rather than attempt to overtake the Imperium.

ALL Legions want to take the fight to The Imperium, the Word Bearers are more active in this than any other barring the Black Legion. Only those two and the Iron Warriors are unified, they DO go out of The Eye and fight, it's just that their unity means that some people think they do nothing unless the entire Legion mobilizes.

Seaward wrote:It's important to remember that Legions don't really exist any more as organizations; warbands are the way Chaos operates. The Black Legion is the closest to retaining its pre-Heresy cohesiveness, but even it's nowhere near the regimented, organized entity it once was.

The Black Legion's definitely both the most powerful and most accomplished, however. People like to give Abaddon guff because of his perceived failures, but bear in mind he assaulted and successfully took 60% of the most heavily defended planet outside of Terra itself. If Cadia falls, Chaos can beeline right for Terra unimpeded. If Cadia falls, Chaos wins. And Abaddon's got over half the planet.

Excuse me but ins"t Fenris in the way?

it can be avoided, but just reaching Sol doenst mean instant victory for chaos.

they have to defeat the two most heavily fortified and fanatically defended worlds in the Imperium. Mars is likely defended by insane amounts of Titans, and Terra is a planet-wide temple (likely very defensible) and any invader will have HORDES of every subset of the imperium- inquisition, space marine, imp guard, SoB, Mechanicus, flocking in defence of Holy Terra.

they will likely abandon many worlds in the rush, so even if the imperium drives off chaos from terra, they will find that vast swathes of the Imperium has fallen. that, is suppose, would be the ultimate goal of attacking terra- drawing away the entire Imperial army to one system.

What about it? One moderately defended planet is nothing to an entire Black Crusade. If Abbaddon can take Cadia, Fenris isn't going to be a problem.
Also, this conception that if Abbaddon takes Cadia, he can go straight to Terra is false. He can take the surface, but hes trapped on it, as the navy controls the skies and space. In addition, assaulting the most heavily defended system in the galaxy straight after bludgeoning your forces on a system like The Cadian Gate is idiotic at best. There are likely many, many other objectives The Despoiler has to fulfill before going for the Sol System. Keep in mind that even Horus, with all his forces went through a stupid amount of planning and plotting to manufacture the best situation possible for assaulting Terra, and even then he failed.

iproxtaco wrote:What about it? One moderately defended planet is nothing to an entire Black Crusade. If Abbaddon can take Cadia, Fenris isn't going to be a problem.
Also, this conception that if Abbaddon takes Cadia, he can go straight to Terra is false. He can take the surface, but hes trapped on it, as the navy controls the skies and space. In addition, assaulting the most heavily defended system in the galaxy straight after bludgeoning your forces on a system like The Cadian Gate is idiotic at best. There are likely many, many other objectives The Despoiler has to fulfill before going for the Sol System. Keep in mind that even Horus, with all his forces went through a stupid amount of planning and plotting to manufacture the best situation possible for assaulting Terra, and even then he failed.

I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

Should Abaddon manage to take Cadia, as 'taco said he's got the Imperial Navy to get through (although he does have the Black Fortresses), Craftworld Ulthwe', numerous other Imperial planets etc. and it's not a simple walk to Terra let alone being able to do anything about it if he reaches Terra.

Compared to Cadia, I'd say Fenris isn't anything close to being that well defended. I didn't say Fenris isn't well defended in it's own right, but to be fair, it's not likely going to slow Abbaddon down that much.

iproxtaco wrote:What about it? One moderately defended planet is nothing to an entire Black Crusade. If Abbaddon can take Cadia, Fenris isn't going to be a problem.
Also, this conception that if Abbaddon takes Cadia, he can go straight to Terra is false. He can take the surface, but hes trapped on it, as the navy controls the skies and space. In addition, assaulting the most heavily defended system in the galaxy straight after bludgeoning your forces on a system like The Cadian Gate is idiotic at best. There are likely many, many other objectives The Despoiler has to fulfill before going for the Sol System. Keep in mind that even Horus, with all his forces went through a stupid amount of planning and plotting to manufacture the best situation possible for assaulting Terra, and even then he failed.

The imperial navy doesn't control the skies over Cadia ( as described in the 13. Black Crusade backgroundbook ), at least not in a way that allows 100% interdiction.
Quarren's fleet was badly mauled when he and the Eldar drove off the Blackstone fortress and fleet movements as well as communications were hampered by a number of warpstorms around the
Cadian gate. With the other points i agree, even the loss of Cadia wouldn't mean that the route to Terra is open. What it would mean is a highly increased amount of Chaos raids and large scale attacks troughout the entire Segmentum which might, in time, destabilize it enough to make Imperial rule in that part of space increasingly difficult.

Most summaries I have seen of the campaign note that the Imperium controls the skies and the space around Cadia itself, with Abbaddons forces controlling the majority of the surface. Communications are hampered by warp storms summoned by Erebus, and the Blackstone Fortress as well as the Planet Killer survive, whilst not taking an active roll currently.

iproxtaco wrote:Most summaries I have seen of the campaign note that the Imperium controls the skies and the space around Cadia itself, with Abbaddons forces controlling the majority of the surface. Communications are hampered by warp storms summoned by Erebus, and the Blackstone Fortress as well as the Planet Killer survive, whilst not taking an active roll currently.

After reading the 13th black crusade after action report some time ago, I took it as meaning that the Chaos forces controlled the skies and most of the surface of Cadia but had lost the space lanes, as in they have ships around the planet but they are kinda stuck on the orbit because of the surrounding space being controlled by the Imperium. I might remember that one wrong though.