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Just Dave wrote:I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

If Abaddon attacked Fenris, it would go very differently. All of the Wolves' combat prowess would be meaningless, as it would be a battle fought in space. The Wolves' fleets vs. Abaddon's. Once sufficient air superiority had been achieved, Blackstone Fortress meets Fang. Fang goes bye bye.

Which is the most powerful or most accomplished of the traitor legions?

Space Wolves.

What you mean in Battle of the Fang:



If so, I'm shocked.

Imagine what the World Eaters and Emperor's Children could do if their Primarchs got off their asses and reunited their legions (well, what's left of them). A poor showing by the traitor primarchs indeed.

well, Angron (World Eaters) DOES get off his ass occasionally, but eventually gets banished and as to hang in the warp for 101 years.

Angron started the Reign of Blood (or was that fire?) and the First Armageddon War, and a few other major invasions where hordes of daemons and World Eaters rampaged around.

Dont know about the Emperor's Children's primarch, though. whats his name again?

SickSix wrote:Which is the most powerful or most accomplished of the traitor legions?

Space Wolves.

ZING!

Blackhoof wrote:well, Angron (World Eaters) DOES get off his ass occasionally, but eventually gets banished and as to hang in the warp for 1001 years.

Angron started the Reign of Blood (or was that fire?) and the First Armageddon War, and a few other major invasions where hordes of daemons and World Eaters rampaged around.

Dont know about the Emperor's Children's primarch, though. whats his name again?

Fixed that. Daemonic banishment lasts 1001 years.

Angron is also the only primarch on record to die to anything less than another primarch.

Fulgrim hangs out being emo and regretting killing his brother.

It's 101 years.
And Fulgrim is trapped inside his own mutated body, watching the atrocities the Daemon that has possessed him commits. The Daemon hangs around Slannesh, enjoying himself, not brooding over his mistake.

Omegus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

Spoiler:

They DID manage it. They breached the gates, killed all but 12-13 of the Company (including the Wolf Lord, Priest, et al and several dreadnoughts), ran hogwild through the Fang, and achieved their primary objective of destroying the purified gene-seed. Oh, and then Magnus killed the Great Wolf. The only reason the Wolves didn't come back to a smoking ruin where the Fang was, was because the entire fleet had come back early due to that one scout's warning, and at that point the Thousand Sons just bailed.

If Abaddon attacked Fenris, it would go very differently. All of the Wolves' combat prowess would be meaningless, as it would be a battle fought in space. The Wolves' fleets vs. Abaddon's. Once sufficient air superiority had been achieved, Blackstone Fortress meets Fang. Fang goes bye bye.

I'd actually say they didn't manage it;
As for Abaddon using the Blackstone Fortress'; if that was the case why hasn't he used one on cadia yet?

Just Dave wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I have to second 'taco here, except for his comment regarding Fenris being moderately defended (extremely powerful fortress, around 2000 veteran Marines, Fenris itself, the non-astartes forces and the power of the SW's themselves mean it's no pushover; the TS vs. a single company couldn't manage it), but that's a story for another time.

Spoiler:

They DID manage it. They breached the gates, killed all but 12-13 of the Company (including the Wolf Lord, Priest, et al and several dreadnoughts), ran hogwild through the Fang, and achieved their primary objective of destroying the purified gene-seed. Oh, and then Magnus killed the Great Wolf. The only reason the Wolves didn't come back to a smoking ruin where the Fang was, was because the entire fleet had come back early due to that one scout's warning, and at that point the Thousand Sons just bailed.

If Abaddon attacked Fenris, it would go very differently. All of the Wolves' combat prowess would be meaningless, as it would be a battle fought in space. The Wolves' fleets vs. Abaddon's. Once sufficient air superiority had been achieved, Blackstone Fortress meets Fang. Fang goes bye bye.

I'd actually say they didn't manage it;

Spoiler:

they breached (and somewhat defiled) the fang, but they in no way did they remove the threat of the Space Wolves or Fenris. The fortress can be rebuilt, the losses were large for astartes but still a small proportion of the chapter and were arguably less costly than those of the TS.
The (pretty much entire) Thousand Sons Legion killed less than a 12th of the Space Wolves and took large casualties in doing so. They did breach the fang and almost annihilate a great company and the mortal soldiers, but it still remains that the Space Wolves emerged largely intact and as a result are one of the most prominent and notorious Space Marine Chapters.
It's true, they did ruin the (largely - not a finished process) purified geneseed and managed to enter the fang and cripple a great company, but the Thousand Sons suffered more numerous casualties (that are surely harder to recover from - recruitment?!), failed to destroy the Wolves or even cripple them and very nearly lost their primarch.

As for Abaddon using the Blackstone Fortress'; if that was the case why hasn't he used one on cadia yet?

He did. forcing it to disengage cost Quarren the bulk of his fleet and Eldrad his life.

It also cost Abaddon the Blackstone Fortress in question and the Planet-Killer had to be pulled out of Cadia's space as the Ultramarine Honor Company(Made up of the Ultramarine Successors and a small number of Ultramarines themselves) boarded and crippled it, at the cost of their own lives.

Noisy_Marine wrote:What you mean in Battle of the Fang:

Spoiler:

Magnus gets off his ass and fights?

If so, I'm shocked.

Imagine what the World Eaters and Emperor's Children could do if their Primarchs got off their asses and reunited their legions (well, what's left of them). A poor showing by the traitor primarchs indeed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:I'd actually say they didn't manage it;

Spoiler:

they breached (and somewhat defiled) the fang, but they in no way did they remove the threat of the Space Wolves or Fenris. The fortress can be rebuilt, the losses were large for astartes but still a small proportion of the chapter and were arguably less costly than those of the TS.
The (pretty much entire) Thousand Sons Legion killed less than a 12th of the Space Wolves and took large casualties in doing so. They did breach the fang and almost annihilate a great company and the mortal soldiers, but it still remains that the Space Wolves emerged largely intact and as a result are one of the most prominent and notorious Space Marine Chapters.
It's true, they did ruin the (largely - not a finished process) purified geneseed and managed to enter the fang and cripple a great company, but the Thousand Sons suffered more numerous casualties (that are surely harder to recover from - recruitment?!), failed to destroy the Wolves or even cripple them and very nearly lost their primarch.

1. The geneseed was the main objective, they basically turned around and left as soon as it was achieved.
2. They would have been able to raze Fang to the ground ala Prospero if the rest of the SW fleet didn't come back weeks earlier than expected.
3. Magnus is a daemon prince at this point, there is no way to "lose" him. Worst case scenario is he gets sent back home to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

For what it's worth, I recently read the Battle of the Fang, and I thought it was a load of window-dressing on a very stereotypical plot arc. The evil guys attacked the good guys' fortress with overwhelming force, were stalled by heroic resistance, and then totally defeated by good guy reinforcements. Despite all the details about destroying genetic material, etc, the impression I got was that the Thousand Sons had a perfect plan, the resources, the leadership, the numbers - and they still lost, because they're not the good guys! It made them seem oddly pathetic.

And this is the central problem with all the 'dark power' type villains in fiction. Even in a grim dark future, you know they're never actually going to win.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:For what it's worth, I recently read the Battle of the Fang, and I thought it was a load of window-dressing on a very stereotypical plot arc. The evil guys attacked the good guys' fortress with overwhelming force, were stalled by heroic resistance, and then totally defeated by good guy reinforcements. Despite all the details about destroying genetic material, etc, the impression I got was that the Thousand Sons had a perfect plan, the resources, the leadership, the numbers - and they still lost, because they're not the good guys! It made them seem oddly pathetic.

And this is the central problem with all the 'dark power' type villains in fiction. Even in a grim dark future, you know they're never actually going to win.

They completed their main objective so I think it was a win

The Black Legions CAN never, and WILL never be successful, by virtue of failbaddon /conversation

hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

Blackhoof wrote:hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

he has failed 13/13 with the backing of all four Chaos Gods, legions of superhumans warriors, daemons and The Lost and the Damned, and what's more he's being turned away by ONE planet every single time. The only one that did ANYTHING was #5, and only because DOOMBREED decided to kill two whole chapters.

While other legions are cooler, I'd have to agree that the black legion is the most successful due to the 13 crusades stated above against the imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

he has failed 13/13 with the backing of all four Chaos Gods, legions of superhumans warriors, daemons and The Lost and the Damned, and what's more he's being turned away by ONE planet every single time. The only one that did ANYTHING was #5, and only because DOOMBREED decided to kill two whole chapters.

He's outnumbered by a lot and has to get through the most heavily guarded planet in Warhammer 40k! Let that sink in. And the 12th Crusade was a success (he gained two Blackstone Fortresses adn the Planet Killer whereas the Imperium and Eldar only lost stuff) and the 13th Crusade is a success so far too.

Kanluwen wrote:It also cost Abaddon the Blackstone Fortress in question and the Planet-Killer had to be pulled out of Cadia's space as the Ultramarine Honor Company(Made up of the Ultramarine Successors and a small number of Ultramarines themselves) boarded and crippled it, at the cost of their own lives.

Yet another Ultramarine style victory.

Omegus wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:What you mean in Battle of the Fang:

Spoiler:

Magnus gets off his ass and fights?

If so, I'm shocked.

Imagine what the World Eaters and Emperor's Children could do if their Primarchs got off their asses and reunited their legions (well, what's left of them). A poor showing by the traitor primarchs indeed.

Spoiler:

Yes, he does. He possesses one of his lieutenants in order to enter material space and strides through the Fang pwning face. He bleeds what's left of his Legion dry in order to stop the Wolves from creating an Ultramar-sized Empire that would forever surround the Eye and keep Chaos contained. Of course, none of the other Wolves really care about such long-term concepts, and the Great Wolf gleefully dies in exchange for making Magnus go "ow" one time.

Just Dave wrote:I'd actually say they didn't manage it;

Spoiler:

they breached (and somewhat defiled) the fang, but they in no way did they remove the threat of the Space Wolves or Fenris. The fortress can be rebuilt, the losses were large for astartes but still a small proportion of the chapter and were arguably less costly than those of the TS.
The (pretty much entire) Thousand Sons Legion killed less than a 12th of the Space Wolves and took large casualties in doing so. They did breach the fang and almost annihilate a great company and the mortal soldiers, but it still remains that the Space Wolves emerged largely intact and as a result are one of the most prominent and notorious Space Marine Chapters.
It's true, they did ruin the (largely - not a finished process) purified geneseed and managed to enter the fang and cripple a great company, but the Thousand Sons suffered more numerous casualties (that are surely harder to recover from - recruitment?!), failed to destroy the Wolves or even cripple them and very nearly lost their primarch.

1. The geneseed was the main objective, they basically turned around and left as soon as it was achieved.
2. They would have been able to raze Fang to the ground ala Prospero if the rest of the SW fleet didn't come back weeks earlier than expected.
3. Magnus is a daemon prince at this point, there is no way to "lose" him. Worst case scenario is he gets sent back home to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

See, it's when you say things like " strides through the Fang pwning face", " none of the other Wolves really care about such long-term concepts" and " in exchange for making Magnus go "ow" one time." that I realise that it isn't worth debating this as neither side is going to concede their opinions so I'm not going to bother arguing this.

I will finish my point in saying, that yes, the Geneseed was Magnus' main objective; but IIRC the majority of the TS were left unaware of this and simply wanted vengeance whilst regarding the thread they were actually talking about the destruction of the Chapter. Chances are they would've turned and left even if they hadn't destroyed the geneseed when the remainder of the Space Wolves arrived; that was the death knell for their attempts. Finally, Magnus can be killed (i.e. he can be lost), but typically banishment would occur instead.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:hey, have YOU united the legions of chaos and lead 13 crusades that have each come close to destabilising an entire segmentum lately?

no?

then shut up lol

he has failed 13/13 with the backing of all four Chaos Gods, legions of superhumans warriors, daemons and The Lost and the Damned, and what's more he's being turned away by ONE planet every single time. The only one that did ANYTHING was #5, and only because DOOMBREED decided to kill two whole chapters.

11 Failed Crusades actually. And when you remember that Abbaddon does not outnumber his foe, and does not lead all the forces of Chaos, you can understand why. The Cadian Gate is not a single planet, or even a single system, it's a group of systems composed of Fortress Worlds, Garrison Worlds and shipyards. Defending it are the finest Imperial Guard regiments in the galaxy, trained from childhood to protect their homes. There are fleets that rival those around Terra in power, and there are a large number of Space Marine chapters created solely to guard The Eye. Plot Armour and generic Good vs. Evil storylines aside, the Cadian Gate is not a hastily erected defense manned by some back water Penal Regiment, it is DESIGNED to halt Chaos. For nigh on 8000 years it has stood, desperately throwing back the hordes of Chaos in 13 Black Crusades, each victory costing more lives and pushing The Imperium to breaking point. This last Crusade, the most powerful and opportune of them all, has breached Cadia itself, the forces of Abbaddon control the most of its surface, and raising many planets in the nearby systems, crippling the fleet and causing a huge amount of resources to be diverted to the Gates defense. For all intents and purposes, The 13th Black Crusade has nearly succeeded, and has not yet come to a conclusion. It's more likely that Abbaddon will take Cadia, than he will be pushed back.

^^ this

That is honestly what chaos needs, I want them to make it past Cadia. If Abbadon ever got past Cadia it would make amazing fluff for the otherwise dry chaos space marines, and 40k will finally have a major bad guy

they have tons of major bad guys.
-necrons 'slowly awakening'
-tyranid hivefleets gradually get stronger
-tau rapidly expanding and evolving technologically
-orks uniting under ghazghul and are unstoppable
-chaos getting closer and closer with every crusade to breaking through the cadian gate

They currently have two major bad guys, Chaos and the Orkz. They rest are potential threats, and currently aren't anything to be concerned about in the present. The Tau on the other hand, are a footnote on the galactic page, they might as well no even exist compared to Chaos or the Orkz.

I meant like one major bad guy not entire races, someone who embodies everything mankind hates abbadon I think was a failed attempt

From his appearences in fluff, I agree. Any of the Daemon Primarchs would make a better figure-head, without doing much. I may sound fanboyish, but Lorgar embodies everything humanity hates. He was once a loyal protector, now he's a traitor, he worships Chaos etc....

What about dark eldar ?

If I were to pick one of the characters already in 40k it would probably be Lorgar too. He was always more of a figure head than a leader for his legion too, not that he couldn't lead too.

What Lorgar needs is fleshing out. He just needs that extra bit to show how he became worthy of Daemonhood.