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Necroagogo wrote:Sicksix: Have you read 'Battle of the Fang' yet? if so, has it changed your view of the Puppies again?

If not ... why not? It's a great read!

I have not read that yet. I guess I'll put it on the list.

Interesting. Nothing in "Prospero Burns" made me change the opinion established by "A Thousand Sons", and it was only further cemented by "Battle for the Fang".

Anyway, this was covered extensively in another thread, but Russ and his dogs were hypocrites and fools. They didn't believe their abilities came from the warp but rather "natural cycles of life and death of Fenris" and other such Shamanic nonsense. They railed against the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, but saw no problems with using their own mutated abominations in battle (hell, with the new codex, they now ride them into battle).

You know what, the more this is the discussed, the more I am actually wanting to rescind my apology. I keep forgetting about the flesh change vs not-wolves.

They are hypocritical punks!

Might want to edit that before a mod jumps in.

Omegus wrote:(hell, with the new codex, they now ride them into battle).

Speculation.

Plenty of alternative suggestions for that cryptic bit of information have been suggested, but plenty of individuals here and elsewhere seem fond of that one specific interpretation to the blatant ignoring of any other idea that fits.

They just don't seem to be that bright IMO.

Eumerin wrote:

Omegus wrote:(hell, with the new codex, they now ride them into battle).

Speculation.

Plenty of alternative suggestions for that cryptic bit of information have been suggested, but plenty of individuals here and elsewhere seem fond of that one specific interpretation to the blatant ignoring of any other idea that fits.

Speculation?

.... NOTHING TO SEE HERE.....

Russ may have been a "tool" but he was a bad a** tool. Yea the sisters helped but a good leader uses what he needs to accomplish the misson. He was told to bring punishment to Magnus and he did. He did what he had to do and did it well and the Wulfen are a defensive reaction of the Space Wolves gene seed when the Wolves are exposed to large amounts of the warp. Magnus used chaos o try and save his gne seed. IDIOT! Andbesides he just stood there and watched while his sons got fought the Wolves.Chicken S***! And he didn't listen to the Big E. IDIOT! He got what was coming to him if you ask me.

SwiftLord14 wrote:Russ may have been a "tool" but he was a bad a** tool. Yea the sisters helped but a good leader uses what he needs to accomplish the misson. He was told to bring punishment to Magnus and he did. He did what he had to do and did it well and the Wulfen are a defensive reaction of the Space Wolves gene seed when the Wolves are exposed to large amounts of the warp. Magnus used chaos o try and save his gne seed. IDIOT! Andbesides he just stood there and watched while his sons got fought the Wolves.Chicken S***! And he didn't listen to the Big E. IDIOT! He got what was coming to him if you ask me.

The Emperor didn't tell Magnus about the Webway, so being halfway across the galaxy he didn't know about it. The reason he was even sending the message was to warn Big E of Horus's deception. They were told to bring Magnus to the Emperor for questioning, but Horus tricked Russ, very easily, into fighting his brother. He is a

big E prolly knew he was gonna be an idiot and mess up his plans. And he may have known that Horus was gonna pull what he pulled. He may have been trying to stop Magnus for making the mistake he made by telling him to stop doing what he was doing.

Stop being foolish. The Emperor did not know anything. He still had trouble believing Horus had really betrayed him while Horus was carving chunks out of his ass.

If the Emperor told Magnus what he was doing, Magnus would have listened and helped. The reason he basically offered up his world to the Wolves is because he felt immeasurably guilty at destroying his father's project. It's just when he saw the depth of savagery the Wolves gleefully unleashed on his world, that he couldn't take it anymore and stepped out to whoop Russ' shaggy tail.

But the Emperor didn't tell his sons anything about anything, he just expected blind and unquestioning obedience. He brought the Heresy upon his own head. For all of the destruction wrought by the Heresy, the principal argument posed by the traitors ("The Emperor has abandoned us, keeping us in the dark while he spins his secret webs, and has given control of the Imperium to soulless bureaucrats and politicians that do not know the honor of warriors") was sound. It becomes a question of whether the Emperor deserved blind and unquestioning obedience. And if he did, then that implies he always knew best, which in turn implies divinity, which in turn makes the other part of the traitors' argument ("The Emperor is trying to install himself as a God") also sound.

SwiftLord14 wrote:big E prolly knew he was gonna be an idiot and mess up his plans. And he may have known that Horus was gonna pull what he pulled. He may have been trying to stop Magnus for making the mistake he made by telling him to stop doing what he was doing.

Then he would have told Magnus about the Webway and he wouldn't have used his powers to communicate.

The entire point of the Heresy was that Big E didn't expect his closest son to betray him, so no he didn't know what Horus was going to pull.

He did want Magnus stopped and questions, not wrongfully attacked for his mistake. Horus tricked Russ into fighting, instead of bringing him to the Emperor. Resulting in one of the coolest pre heresy chapters decision to turn to chaos.

I love the Wolves. I really do, but the prehersey wolves are kinda of giant douches.

But Magnus kinda deserved what he got. He knew about the wards at the Emperors palace. But he didn't know what they were for. Plus he should of had an astropath send a message to the emperor not himself! (Basically Magnus was lazy as helk, he could of literally taken 20 minutes of his time and walked over to an astropath and ask them to send a message of urgenicy that the Imperium is in great danger and that Horus has betrayed the emperor etc.)

I do not feel sorry for Magnus. But I feel sorry for his sons. They didn't deserve any of it. They should of been let to live. Plus Magnus murdered one of his sons. Which was a stupid move.....

The Thousands are awesome, but Magnus is the idiot that should of been thrown in jail and prosecuted not his sons. His sons should of figured out, that their leader was going insane, and should of told magnus to go bugger off.

But Leman Russ was just following orders. Thats it. He was told by Horus (Who was a traitor) to not leave anything alive on Prospero, because Horus wanted two severely weakened legions. In all honesty this made me hate Horus the most, I have read all the luna wolves books, and I have to say, I freaking hate Horus, and Abaddon even more they broke ties of friendship and honor.

Even a message from an astropath would take a while to go halfway across the galaxy, and this was a pretty important message. Magnus as an infinitely more powerful psyker than an astropath could warn the Emperor about Horus much faster.

Asherian Command wrote:But Magnus kinda deserved what he got. He knew about the wards at the Emperors palace. But he didn't know what they were for. Plus he should of had an astropath send a message to the emperor not himself! (Basically Magnus was lazy as helk, he could of literally taken 20 minutes of his time and walked over to an astropath and ask them to send a message of urgenicy that the Imperium is in great danger and that Horus has betrayed the emperor etc.)

Well, Ahriman raises that specific objection, but due to the disturbance in the Warp as the Ruinous Powers tried to hamper the loyalists' communications and travel, an astropath signal would have been very unlikely to reach the Emperor in time, if at all. The Emperor was also incommunicado to everyone while he worked on his project. Even when Garro brought news of Horus' betrayal, the Sigilite handled all the preparations and initial battle plans. The Emperor didn't take an active role (or even become aware) of the Heresy until after Magnus broke his toy. So in a way, even though Magnus' actions were rash, he did deliver the warning when no one else could.

Magnus' failure is no worse than the other Primarchs. I mean, dude was the smartest of the Primarchs by a significant margin, to the point that even the Emperor had no idea just how intelligent he was. Whereas others would take decades upon decades of intense study to understand something, he could grasp the deepest nuances of anything with a glance. He never encountered anything that wasn't child's play to him, so his arrogance and self-assurance in his own ability was kind of justified.

But yes, I agree with you that the real tragedy of the Thousand Sons has to do with the Astartes rather than Magnus. They were not only betrayed by the Emperor, but by their own father. Multiple times! Once, when he concealed how he had saved them. Twice, when he let the Wolves ravage their world (hell, one of his captains got an up close and personal betrayal). And then again when he condemned them to mutation and embraced daemonhood.

Wait how far is Prospero I thought it was pretty close to earth.

Yea I can understand how feeling bad for the 1k sons themselves is ok. They felt the brunt of everything. But if the events of what happend didn't play out the way they did do you think Magnus could've caused more troube?If Russ had taken him to Terra what else could've happend?

Well, the Emperor would have a ridiculously powerful bunch of sorcerers backing him up, rather than tearing down his walls.

Omegus wrote:Well, the Emperor would have a ridiculously powerful bunch of sorcerers backing him up, rather than tearing down his walls.

^ basically like that.

Nicholas wrote:Even a message from an astropath would take a while to go halfway across the galaxy, and this was a pretty important message. Magnus as an infinitely more powerful psyker than an astropath could warn the Emperor about Horus much faster.

Istvaan took place almost a year after Magnus botched up the Golden Throne. He had plenty of time to warn the Emperor. He just didn't have the humility.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Even a message from an astropath would take a while to go halfway across the galaxy, and this was a pretty important message. Magnus as an infinitely more powerful psyker than an astropath could warn the Emperor about Horus much faster.

Istvaan took place almost a year after Magnus botched up the Golden Throne. He had plenty of time to warn the Emperor. He just didn't have the humility.

But how would Magnus of known that it would take a year for Horus to betray them it could easily of happened much sooner.

SickSix wrote:You know what, the more this is the discussed, the more I am actually wanting to rescind my apology. I keep forgetting about the flesh change vs not-wolves.

They are hypocritical punks!

You'll only think that they're hypocritical punks until you realize that they're really a traitor legion that sided with Horus only until they realized they could get a better deal from the Imperium.

Then you'll think that they're doublecrossing traitors!

Nicholas wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Even a message from an astropath would take a while to go halfway across the galaxy, and this was a pretty important message. Magnus as an infinitely more powerful psyker than an astropath could warn the Emperor about Horus much faster.

Istvaan took place almost a year after Magnus botched up the Golden Throne. He had plenty of time to warn the Emperor. He just didn't have the humility.

But how would Magnus of known that it would take a year for Horus to betray them it could easily of happened much sooner.

But Magnus knew everything; he's infallible! /sarcasm

As opposed to the Space Wolves willful ignorance?

iproxtaco wrote:As opposed to the Space Wolves willful ignorance?

There was plenty of ignorance to go around in that catastrophe.

And that's not relevant. Despite the evidence against them, Russ and the Wolves were content to sit in their ignorance. They had a choice, most others in the Heresy did not.

iproxtaco wrote:And that's not relevant. Despite the evidence against them, Russ and the Wolves were content to sit in their ignorance. They had a choice, most others in the Heresy did not.

Magnus and his Thousand Sons could have chosen to follow the Emperor's decree or to not make daemonic pacts too.

And that's not a demonstration of ignorance, that's disobedience.