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Use psychic powers, yet despite others that use psychic powers.
Have a bunch of mutants they employ in combat, but hate others who have mutations (even though they cured or put them down). Yes, that's not hypocrisy, that's totally something personal, stemming from "getting pushed in" by a SW player (nice innuendo, by the way).

I think you're projecting. Actually, from your profile pic, I know you're projecting.

Omegus wrote:Interesting. Nothing in "Prospero Burns" made me change the opinion established by "A Thousand Sons", and it was only further cemented by "Battle for the Fang".

Anyway, this was covered extensively in another thread, but Russ and his dogs were hypocrites and fools. They didn't believe their abilities came from the warp but rather "natural cycles of life and death of Fenris" and other such Shamanic nonsense. They railed against the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, but saw no problems with using their own mutated abominations in battle (hell, with the new codex, they now ride them into battle).

Here ya go Omegus.

We can see from your first post how you feel about the Wolves as your established bias for whatever reason that may be. You can track back through my posts in this topic and see that I am only pointing out that which we have been given as the reasons behind the Council of Nikaea and what the Thousand Sons faced without bias as a SW player towards them at all. The thread has been your bias against the facts that I have posted.

What was the Council of Nikaea about?

The LIBRARIAN Crisis! Not the Psyker crisis, not the Rune Priest crisis, or the Navigator crisis but the LIBRARIAN CRISIS. You continue to maintain that the Council of Nikaea was a ban on psykers in the Legions which per the quotes I have provided is completely false which you continue to ignore;

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers. -Emperor at the Council of Nikea

That is NOT a ban on rune priests as they were never part of the Librarius. That is not a ban on them employing psychic powers as they were never warriors or instructors of the Librarius. That is a ban on the Librarius and the instructors and warriors of the Librarius. It is a ban on Magnus' entire program and research on implementing psykers into the Legions. The lecture that the Emperor gave prior to passing the decree was directed explicitly at Magnus' and his Legion's continued drive for forbidden knowledge and power which Magnus did not deny prior to the speech even being given,

If I am guilty of anything, it is the pursuit of knowledge. I am its master, I swear it. -Magnus at the Council of Nikaea

But byy all means keep parroting,

"Braaawk.....Nikaea banned psykers........braaawk.......Nikaea banned psykers......BRAAAWK!"

it won't make it true which is what you need to be true for the Council to apply to rune priests.

Wow, you are incredibly obtuse. I have not been arguing the point about Nikea, I even said a few posts back that your theory may well be accurate.

I am arguing against the character of Space Wolves, which is painfully clear for anyone who actually reads the fluff without bias towards the faction they play. You are resorting to insults and repeating the same quasi-argument that no one cares about over and over again. I'm claiming moral victory, laughing in your face, and walking away from your immature crap. Enjoy your fantasies.

<thread monitoring mode active; broadcast mode enabled: Simmer down, folks, or you'll lose the right to discuss this incredibly important topic>

Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

purplefood wrote:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

The natural cycles of Fenris.

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

The natural cycles of Fenris.

The magic of the stage.

purplefood wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

The natural cycles of Fenris.

The magic of the stage.

Showtunes.

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

The natural cycles of Fenris.

Is that anything like menstrual cycles?

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

The natural cycles of Fenris.

The magic of the stage.

Showtunes.

Disney showtunes.

purplefood wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Magic and wizardry.

The natural cycles of Fenris.

The magic of the stage.

Showtunes.

Disney showtunes.

Checkmate, good sir.

And while I was just ignoring the other remarks regarding genetic instablity, I might as well shut that door of ignorance down as well.

The genetic instability that the Thousand Sons face is not a physical defect of their gene-seed, it is a psychic defect. The flesh change, as it is called, manifested itself after the Thousand Sons began to use their psychic powers during the Great Crusade.

The first warrior died on Bezant, his flesh turned inside out and his powers beyond his control. Something took his flesh, made him a vessel for a xenos beast from the Great Ocean. -Ahriman

Now we have the genetic instability of the Wolves and even the Blood Angels which is a physical defect of their respective gene-seeds. It has to be assumed that there were cases of Wulfen prior to the discovery of Russ within the VI Legion. The difference between the two is origin. No one was looking at the Space Wolves or Blood Angels and associating their genetic instability with sorcery, it was just a physical defect of the gene-seed and that alone.

Many of the Legions had been reunited with their sires, and some of them found the notion of our powers to be hateful. Moratorion was the worst, but Corax and Dorn were not much better. -Ahriman

The Thousand Sons psychic mutation of the flesh change was linked to their use of psychic powers. Powers which many related to witchcraft and sorcery, as had been seen on other planets during the Great Crusade. The psychic mutations of the Thousand Sons was linked to their use of sorcery and the enemies they had faced who had used sorcery against their Legions respectively which then must also include the incident on Shrike.

On Shrike we have an incident where the Thousand Sons, in protecting alien knowledge for their own interests, openly attack the Space Wolves. In the ensuing struggle, we see Hastar succumb to the flesh change while psychically attacking the Space Wolves. Russ kills the transformed Hastar however we see the distinction expressed over gene-seed instability when Lorgar stops Russ from going after Magnus,

"You stand with the Cyclops, Lorgar?" said Russ. "A wielder of unclean magicks? Look a the corpse of that ......thing over there, with my bullet in it heart. Look at that and tell me I am wrong."

"An instability of a gene-seed is no reason for two brothers to go to war", cautioned Lorgar.

"That is more then unstable gene-seed, it is sorcery."

The Primarchs acknowledge geneseed instability, however the Thousand Sons instability is instead pointed out as sorcery by Russ and with the events of Nikaea, it appears that is the opinion by others as well

So again, it is a matter of origin;

Gene-seed instability due to physical defects seems to be an accepted norm while gene-seed instability due to psychic defect is not. Sanguinous himself held council with the Emperor and I never remember those great white wings of his being clipped yet Ahriman is quoted as saying;

There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history.

when he is speaking to Lemuel about the history of the Thousand Sons and the flesh change.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

moonshine wrote:Brother Ramses, what do you think rune-priest use for their powers ?

Do you understand that it is irrelevant where the rune priests get their power? All that matters in regard to the Council of Nikaea is that they did not learn their power under the training or founding of Magnus and his Librarium program. That is what was banned. The concept designed and developed by Magnus was banned by the Council, not psykers in the Imperium.

If by "shared by others" you mean yoruself, then you are correct.

It's interesting that the flesh change occurred long before Magnus showed up, long before the Librarius was established, long before the Thousand Sons were being recruited from Prospero, and long before they started using psychic powers, much less sorcery.

The only difference between the mutations of the Thousand Sons and the Wulfen is that the mutations of the TS were made public. The Blood Angels had no mutations except for their Primarch's wings, and people have a much easier time accepting an angelic being than a mass of limbs and teeth. The Luna Wolves also had a warrior that succumbed to possession, yet no one made an issue of it because no one knew about it.

<text redacted; you've been warned --Janthkin>

Jubal ? Did'nt a lesser demon posses him in a moment of weakness ? I think that could have happened to astartes.

Omegus wrote:If by "shared by others" you mean yoruself, then you are correct.

It's interesting that the flesh change occurred long before Magnus showed up, long before the Librarius was established, long before the Thousand Sons were being recruited from Prospero, and long before they started using psychic powers, much less sorcery.

The only difference between the mutations of the Thousand Sons and the Wulfen is that the mutations of the TS were made public. The Blood Angels had no mutations except for their Primarch's wings, and people have a much easier time accepting an angelic being than a mass of limbs and teeth. The Luna Wolves also had a warrior that succumbed to possession, yet no one made an issue of it because no one knew about it.

But wait, logic has no place in your warped interpretation of the written word.

Sigh.

Our character manifested itself five years into the crusade. Our warriors begun to display abilitities for beyond anything we had expected. I could see things before they happened and Ohrmuzd could craft lightning from the air. Other amongst our Legion could perform similar feats. At first we were jubiliant, thinking this to be latent power encoded into our genes by the Emperor, but soon our joy turned to horror as first one warrior, then more began to change. -Ahriman

So the Thousand Sons started using powers and the flesh changes started to happen. How about instead of me typing that you just read pages 380-389 of a Thousand Sons to learn about the history of the flesh change?

And I see no connection that you are trying to make with the Librarius and the flesh change. The other Legions were already suspicious of the Thousand Sons of sorcery and withcraft before Magnus founded the Librarium. When the Librarium was proposed, it was challenged by Russ, Dorn, Moratorion, and Corax because of existing suspicions of sorcery and witchcraft due to their powers and subsequent flesh changes.

The Wulfen were witnessed by two organizations very close to the Emperor, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence. Are we going to play conspiracy theory now and say that both of those organizations were part of the Great Russ Conspiracy 31k? Also you made the distinction of mutation. Angelic wings or not, they are still a mutation which was overlooked as just a physical mutation while the psychic mutation was challenged by Moratorion, Dorn, and Corax per the quote I provided above.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Omegus wrote:If by "shared by others" you mean yoruself, then you are correct.

It's interesting that the flesh change occurred long before Magnus showed up, long before the Librarius was established, long before the Thousand Sons were being recruited from Prospero, and long before they started using psychic powers, much less sorcery.

The only difference between the mutations of the Thousand Sons and the Wulfen is that the mutations of the TS were made public. The Blood Angels had no mutations except for their Primarch's wings, and people have a much easier time accepting an angelic being than a mass of limbs and teeth. The Luna Wolves also had a warrior that succumbed to possession, yet no one made an issue of it because no one knew about it.

But wait, logic has no place in your warped interpretation of the written word.

Sigh.

Our character manifested itself five years into the crusade. Our warriors begun to display abilitities for beyond anything we had expected. I could see things before they happened and Ohrmuzd could craft lightning from the air. Other amongst our Legion could perform similar feats. At first we were jubiliant, thinking this to be latent power encoded into our genes by the Emperor, but soon our joy turned to horror as first one warrior, then more began to change. -Ahriman

So the Thousand Sons started using powers and the flesh changes started to happen. How about instead of me typing that you just read pages 380-389 of a Thousand Sons to learn about the history of the flesh change?

And I see no connection that you are trying to make with the Librarius and the flesh change. The other Legions were already suspicious of the Thousand Sons of sorcery and withcraft before Magnus founded the Librarium. When the Librarium was proposed, it was challenged by Russ, Dorn, Moratorion, and Corax because of existing suspicions of sorcery and witchcraft due to their powers and subsequent flesh changes.

The Wulfen were witnessed by two organizations very close to the Emperor, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence. Are we going to play conspiracy theory now and say that both of those organizations were part of the Great Russ Conspiracy 31k? Also you made the distinction of mutation. Angelic wings or not, they are still a mutation which was overlooked as just a physical mutation while the psychic mutation was challenged by Moratorion, Dorn, and Corax per the quote I provided above.

But it was not the Blood Angels who had the mutation like you said just Sanguinus he corrected you on that nothing else. If you are implying the flaw it didn't happen until Sanguinus was killed.

So Ramses, you continue to rail on the council of Nikea when neither Omegus or myself are even arguing about that. And have still YET to actually refute or even address our argument.

And now, apparently an entire legion being psykers has nothing to do with it's gene seed? Yes the change is brought on by using the warp without control, but where do you think they got the ability in the first place?

And please tell me where we have confirmed explanation of how and why failed SW recruits turn into Wolves.... Niether book gave as clear an answer about that as we were given regarding the flesh change. But hey, your not biased at all. I'm sure that Icon you have has no bearing on your view.

PS> I'm sorry, did any space wolves actually mutate in front of the custodes and Silent Sisters? Cause I missed that part. They saw, wolves, and only wolves as far as I read. But maybe I missed it.

The Thousand Sons mutation is a flaw in their geneseed. It is brought about by continued use of their psychic powers, it has nothing to do with sorcery, which is another thing entirely. To be honest, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about now, please Ramses, make a point before this degenerates to further name calling.

I think they are argueing now whether the flesh change is due to sorcery or gene seed, but thats not even an arguement, its like argueing about whether Roboute Gulliman was the Ultramarines primarch or if he wasnt, there is fluff supporting the gene seed side

Ok this is what the Emporer said on Nikea : "but no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth it is my will that no legion will maintain a Librarius. All it's warriors and instructors must be returned to battle companies and never again employ psychic powers"

Rune priest are the name given to space wolf librarians, therefore they were banned on Nikea.

ALSO, Space wolves belive in gods that are not the emporer, isn't that counted as heresy ?

moonshine wrote:Ok this is what the Emporer said on Nikea : "but no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth it is my will that no legion will maintain a Librarius. All it's warriors and instructors must be returned to battle companies and never again employ psychic powers"

Rune priest are the name given to space wolf librarians, therefore they were banned on Nikea.

ALSO, Space wolves belive in gods that are not the emporer, isn't that counted as heresy ?

Marines don't think The Emperor is a god he is a father figure, I don't think Wolves believe in gods either just spirits of Fenris

No they do belive in gods, they often call "Morkai" a god of the underworld that eats souls.

They don't actually believe they exist, its a simple throw-back to their pagan beliefs they held pre-recruitment.

Omegus wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote: Read Battle for the Fang, revise your opinion, and stop the HERESY!

That book only underscored my opinion of the Space Wolves. The one Wolf Lord that actually seemed intelligent and reasonable was shouted down by the other Lords as a pansy. "Thinking is for losers" is the motto of the Wolves according to that book.

Relying on instinct keeps them pure. Literally (other than GK) there IS NO CHAPTER MORE RESISTANT TO CORRUPTION. The 13th great company has been in the eye for 10,000 years and is completely untainted. Did you read the Wolf Priests' reason for the tampering? Nothing but noble. The thousand sons are deceitful, arrogant, traitorous rabble who even fell to infighting (aftermath of the rubric) that was only stopped by direct intervention from Tzeentch.

And "thinking is for losers" was in no way the motto, those who resisted the tampering (I THINK that was what it was called) did so because they felt it was a betrayal of their Primarch. Their plan was so close to fruition that it required an entire chaos legion AND their primarch to stop it, and even then the space wolves still won (albeit with their research destroyed). If they had succeeded, it likely would have tipped the scales against chaos.

Because if it had succeeded, there would have been as many successors of the space wolves as there is of the ultrasmurfs, which would mean hundreds more chapters. They would have been able to share their research with other chapters, which could mean the elimination of mutations in astartes. No black rage, No "Fists can't spit venom" etc. etc.

This would even help for more extreme cases (maybe, I admit it would be very unlikely) like the Soul Drinkers who were taken prisoner by the IF.

Sorry about the massive leap off topic, we were discussing ethics, not the tampering

Either way tho, my point still stands: who, other than space wolves, spoke out about the fucktardedness that was the follow-up of 1st war 4 armaggedon?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Omegus wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote: Read Battle for the Fang, revise your opinion, and stop the HERESY!

That book only underscored my opinion of the Space Wolves. The one Wolf Lord that actually seemed intelligent and reasonable was shouted down by the other Lords as a pansy. "Thinking is for losers" is the motto of the Wolves according to that book.

Relying on instinct keeps them pure. Literally (other than GK) there IS NO CHAPTER MORE RESISTANT TO CORRUPTION.

I'll just leave this here. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris

im2randomghgh wrote:

Omegus wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote: Read Battle for the Fang, revise your opinion, and stop the HERESY!

That book only underscored my opinion of the Space Wolves. The one Wolf Lord that actually seemed intelligent and reasonable was shouted down by the other Lords as a pansy. "Thinking is for losers" is the motto of the Wolves according to that book.

Relying on instinct keeps them pure. Literally (other than GK) there IS NO CHAPTER MORE RESISTANT TO CORRUPTION. The 13th great company has been in the eye for 10,000 years and is completely untainted. Did you read the Wolf Priests' reason for the tampering? Nothing but noble. The thousand sons are deceitful, arrogant, traitorous rabble who even fell to infighting (aftermath of the rubric) that was only stopped by direct intervention from Tzeentch.

Yeah, as coolyo has provided, Marines aboard the Wolf of Fenris willingly gave themselves up to join the traitors. That must have been their instinct though. Oh, and the Excorsists, they're more resistant.

And "thinking is for losers" was in no way the motto, those who resisted the tampering (I THINK that was what it was called) did so because they felt it was a betrayal of their Primarch. Their plan was so close to fruition that it required an entire chaos legion AND their primarch to stop it, and even then the space wolves still won (albeit with their research destroyed). If they had succeeded, it likely would have tipped the scales against chaos.

Thinking about the situation would have made them come to a similar conclusion as the pro-research people, that it was a good idea, much more important than loyalty to their Primarch, who hasn't been around for nearly 10,000 years. By an entire Legion, you mean about 700 marines, which is less than one hundredth the size of the Word Bearers. If I'm not mistaken -

Either way tho, my point still stands: who, other than space wolves, spoke out about the fucktardedness that was the follow-up of 1st war 4 armaggedon?

No one, and rightly so. The populace of Armaggedon had to wiped out. Not exactly pure and righteous, but to avoid the corruption of huge amounts of people then it was entirely justified. Who are they to block the actions of the Inquisition and The Grey Knights when they know next to nothing of the threat they two latter organizations have to fight?

Here's one of my (many) problems with the Space Wolves as they've been fleshed out with A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns (subtitle: but only in the last 50 pages), and Battle for the Fang. In PB and Fang, the Wolves have their saying, "I recognize my weakness and will endeavor to correct it." (or similar) In PB, Russ and crew know that Magnus is being sanctioned for use of psychic/sorcerous powers specifically related to making a mess of things on Earth while bringing a warning to the Emperor concerning the treachery of Horus. This is all from Russ' mouth, so Russ and the Wolves know
1) Roughly what Magnus has done, a magical message to the Emperor that caused a mess). I don't know if the whole webway/Golden Throne issue is explained, but that doesn't matter here.
2) The general content of the message, that Horus has turned bad.

Now Russ manages to explain it away as Magnus going bad and needing a smackdown. Others mention that Horus turning would be very bad, and might explain why Magnus is risking sanction in order to bring the warning using proscribed means. Russ uses some mad ninja like circular arguments to ignore that, basically saying that the reason Magnus said Horus turned is because only a warning of that magnitude could possibly excuse his methods. Russ simply assumes whatever Magnus is saying is a lie to excuse his actions, totally ignoring that Magnus' actions make zero sense unless he
a) really wants to risk getting nuked from orbit
or
b) there really is a risk to the Imperium

So whatever, end result is that Magnus sends a valid and timely warning, nobody believes him and he gets nuked for his efforts. The important thing is that Russ and the Wolves know what his message was. Also of import is that in PB, the Skjald main character runs into the Primordial Annihilator (a daemon of Tzeentch? an avatar of the four powers combined?), this daemon then decides to monologue for a bit and spills everything. It explains how the skjald had been used as a tool of Chaos (not the 1k sons) and how Horus had used the Wolves to set up a 'lets you and him fight' in order to remove the two greatest threats to the Heresy.

So after that wall of text, here is where my problem with the Wolves is, whenever an individual messes up, they recognize the mistake and try to do better. At the end of PB, there is no indication from Russ that he thinks that he might have made a mistake. And this is in a conversation with the skjald who had been told the entire plan. But OK, maybe the skjald was still under some control and didn't tell the rest of the Wolves the details. Skip forward a thousand years to Battle of the Fang. At that point, it was known that Magnus' warning had been accurate. The Wolves should have at least suspected that maybe-kinda things weren't as clear cut as it had seemed when they set off to Prospero, yet every interaction with the 1k sons shows absolutely no introspection or thought about the actions of their legion.

Not only were the Wolves used by the forces of Chaos to destroy a loyal legion, they aren't even aware (or don't care) that they were used, and are even proud of their actions.

thats because they are evil

Good points dave, and welcome to Dakka! That's a new angle on the argument, thanks for sharing (not meant to be sarcastic).