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I read 'Thousand Sons' before 'Prospero Burns' and that earned The Wolf King and his pups my ire. However, I do apologize, now having read both sides. I am not a Space Pup fanboi now by no means, but well yeah... Sorry Russ for all those nasty things I said about you. That is all.

Well then...
That's nice.

Thus the whole "see both sides in two books" idea worked on one person at least.

haha sorry. Just something I had to get off my chest, after publicly hatin' on the SW after I read 1k Sons.

Why?
Prospero Burns kinda made it worse for me
Instead of sending messages to Magnus once he touched down, directly confronting him, he instead talks through a supposed conduit.

He still uses psykers while condemning Magnus for doing so

He refused to entertain the notion that Magnus might've been right in his prediction and that despite the damage Magnus caused, he wouldnt have done so without a reason

Fact is the guy attacked him without ever getting the facts straight and so the Imperium lost a valuable ally that Horus himself was afraid of and considered him just as much of a threat as the Emperor was.
The result of his actions led to magnus joining the other side and increasing their power

I can't see any reason to like them at all, both for their stupidity and hypocrisy

In my opinion, Russ is a heretical a-hole.

OP - I also read them in this order, the order of release, and they earned the same ire from myself. However, I assum emany others felt similarly as we did.

I credit the skill of the respective authours for placing us in this position due to the positioning of the respective protagonists and antagonists.

I agree with Asuron.

For me Prospero Burns just increases the ire I feel for Russ.

Before this book I would have accepted he made a stupid mistake but now we know he was willfully ignorant.

Asuron wrote:
He still uses psykers while condemning Magnus for doing so

People keep saying this despite it not being true. They condemned the Thousand Sons for going too far with their psykers, not just using them. This isn't even implied, it's stated directly.

It is true that Russ is a huge , but it's nice to see that not everyone is taking it out on the poor little puppies.

Listen, I never said I liked the guy. I just was overly harsh.

Russ is a tool. Literally. But he is not quite the ignorant unthinking tool that I thought he was. It was suggested that he was manipulated into burning prospero instead of attempting to simply 'bring Magnus to terra' by his evil brothers. But there was never a concrete confirmation of that in either book. I agree that he made no attempt to even contact Magnus before he began his slaughter. Losing Magnus was terrible loss(mistake).

Prospero Burns actually made me smile because it reinforced the fact that if it wasn't for the Silent Sisters, the Thousands Sons would have defeated the wolves.

SickSix wrote:
Prospero Burns actually made me smile because it reinforced the fact that if it wasn't for the Silent Sisters, the Thousands Sons would have defeated the wolves.

The same could be said for their armor, or bolters, or any other weapon. The Space Wolves always bring the weapons they'll need.

In my mind Magnus comes across as overly proud and overconfident in his own abillity. He busts down the shield the Emperor has around his sanctum without thinking about it, he believes he will never have to pay the warp back for the deal he made to stabilise the 1k son geneseed. The 1k sons proved that they were unstable during the first book. I think one of the things that pisses russ off the most is when the 1k sons used their powers on the wolves in anger during the conquest to bring that world to complianc with Lorgar.

While I admit that Russ acted heavy handedly (although Horus convinced him this was best so he was only following orders from the Emperors regent) I think that Magnus and his sons ould have kept on meddling in the wap until they ended up causing even more damage.

Ugly Green Trog wrote: he believes he will never have to pay the warp back for the deal he made

*cough*Emperor*cough*

SickSix wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote: he believes he will never have to pay the warp back for the deal he made

*cough*Emperor*cough*

Once again, only daemons make that claim. They aren't reliable sources.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Asuron wrote:
He still uses psykers while condemning Magnus for doing so

People keep saying this despite it not being true. They condemned the Thousand Sons for going too far with their psykers, not just using them. This isn't even implied, it's stated directly.

It is true. Throughout A Thousand Sons Russ and Othere criticize the use of Psyker powers because they don't even think they use the Warp. Then there's the Wolves abhorrence of the Sons geneseed mutation, whilst they then use their own mutated individuals as weapons when attacking Prospero.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Asuron wrote:
He still uses psykers while condemning Magnus for doing so

People keep saying this despite it not being true. They condemned the Thousand Sons for going too far with their psykers, not just using them. This isn't even implied, it's stated directly.

Actually they feared he had gone to far, they didn't know anything about what they were actually doing
It was all a mistrust of psykers and the potential they could have in causing destruction
His Rune priests have exactly the same potential, fall under the law that was established at Nikaea and he still kept them

And didn't Othere claim their powers came from 'the natural power of Fenris' or some such other BS?

No doubt the Wolves were super hypocritical.

Yes, he did, him, and Russ, and all other Rune Priests did not think their powers came from the Warp, but in fact were drawn from the natural powers of Fenris.

SickSix wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote: he believes he will never have to pay the warp back for the deal he made

*cough*Emperor*cough*

pics or it didn't happen!

seriously though the only creatures who say the Emperor made a deal with them is daemons who are a completely untrustworthy source. I reckon the Emperor used the warp in the creation of the Primarchs and that the gods see this as theft.

The chaos gods are probably modelled on GWs senior management with anyone coming up with anything that they talked about doing but never actually did getting the 40k equivelant of a lawsuit filed with extreme predjudice.

Out on a remote warp route in a dimly lit bar the four powers of chaos are on a night out:
Tzeentch: I know guys hic listen to this right . hic. .listen lets all make supermortal demi-gods and conquer the galaxy
(A robed stranger in the corner having a quiet drink pricks up his ears in interest)

Slaanesh: I love you, your're brilliant you are, that is such a bloody brilliant idea.

Nurgle: Hoho finaly we can spread the worship of chaos across the galaxy!

Khorne: BURN MAIM hic KILL!!!

Tzeentch: yeah its perfect! all that raw human emotion channeled directly at us.

Slaanesh: The pleasure! the PAAAIIINN!!!

Nurgle:(chortleing) The suffering, the disease!

Khorne: BURN MAIM KILL?

The other 3: (exhasperated) YES!!!

The plans slowly hatch over the course of the evening getting wilder and more extravagant as the empty glasses, bottles and burnt-maimed barmaids pile up around the table.

Dawns light filters in through the window to find all four gods passed out on the table and the stranger making a quick exit with a gleam in his eye.

Slaanesh: OhHHH my head, its excrutiating it feels great.

Tzeeentch: (groggily) what were we talking about again?

Khorne: BURN MAIM KILL!

All four gods stagger off to nurse their hangovers forgetting all about their plans from the night before, forgetting that is until many years later they hear of some bloke calling himself the Emperor saying he's created 20 demigods and is going to take over the galaxy. the gods summon up a bunch of lawyers (who are a lesser known daemon of Tzeentch) and the lawsuit begins!

I strongly dislike Russ, and think that magnus should have killed him and put his head on a pointy stick because Russ is lame!

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, he did, him, and Russ, and all other Rune Priests did not think their powers came from the Warp, but in fact were drawn from the natural powers of Fenris.

Othere's conversation with Ahriman about/during their warp encounter make it plainly obvious that Othere knows he's powered by Warp energy.

He does state that what he does is different than the the sorcery of the Thousand Sons. It isn't hypocrisy, it's ignorance. And the Emperor is to blame for that, not the Wolves. He's the one that never explained the warp to the Space Marines.

I think it was sorcery that Russ had a problem with not psykers (although i dont think he was super fond of those either) It was the fact that magnus and the 1k sons summoned daemons as familliars and had performed mass scale psychic rites plus the whole unstableness of the geneseed thing what with fenrisians hating mutants with a passion. Post Nikea there is no evidence of Runepriests doing much other than scrying or reading the runes they dont use a whole lot of psychic powers in battle whereas magnus broke the golden throne and caused a warp gate to open under the himalyas not to mention ruined the Emperors chance to protect humanity from the warp by gaining access to the webway, this was a bad thing!

The Emperor, is not infallible.

1. He disgraced Lorgar publicly instead of criticizing him privately. (violating a basic tenet of good leadership)

2. He didn't explain the warp sufficiently/at all to his sons and soldiers.

3. He didn't tell his sons why he was going back to Terra.

4. He didn't tell Magnus, specifically, what he was doing therefore Magnus could have never known the risk of destroying the gate/seal. And Magnus was supposed to be the one to actually sit on the Golden Throne!

The Emperor's own secrecy is what did him in. (at least partially to blame)

DarknessEternal wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, he did, him, and Russ, and all other Rune Priests did not think their powers came from the Warp, but in fact were drawn from the natural powers of Fenris.

Othere's conversation with Ahriman about/during their warp encounter make it plainly obvious that Othere knows he's powered by Warp energy.

He does state that what he does is different than the the sorcery of the Thousand Sons. It isn't hypocrisy, it's ignorance. And the Emperor is to blame for that, not the Wolves. He's the one that never explained the warp to the Space Marines.

And Othere's several other conversations and a conversation Russ had with Magnus makes the opposite plainly obvious. Russ and his Rune Priests believe that their powers are different from the ones of The Thousand Sons, believing they are powered by the natural life cycle of Fenris.

iproxtaco wrote: Russ and his Rune Priests believe that their powers are different from the ones of The Thousand Sons,

Given that the Thousand Sons powers come from daemonic pacts, they're correct.

Which is again, wrong. They use familiars to boost their powers, which is stepping over the line as it was a Daemonic pact, but it wasn't their source.

iproxtaco wrote:Which is again, wrong. They use familiars to boost their powers, which is stepping over the line as it was a Daemonic pact, but it wasn't their source.

like i said earlier i think it was this type of line crossing that annoyed Russ.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Which is again, wrong. They use familiars to boost their powers, which is stepping over the line as it was a Daemonic pact, but it wasn't their source.

like i said earlier i think it was this type of line crossing that annoyed Russ.

Which Russ had no knowledge of. He railed against the Thousand Sons after witnessing the Flesh Change, and due to information Othere the rune priest gleaned from befriending Ahriman.

Sicksix: Have you read 'Battle of the Fang' yet? if so, has it changed your view of the Puppies again?

If not ... why not? It's a great read!