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The Council of Nikaea was a direct censure of Magnus and what was his vision for humanity (sorcery, daemons, and warp all over).

Magnus was chiefly responsible for the very creation of the Librarium. He was responsible for the very creation of the Librairus and he and his Thousand Sons were responsible for the training of the very first use of psykers within the Legions. Those opposed to Magnus' vision of using psykers in the Legions was opposed by Russ, Moratorion, Dorn, and Corax however he was granted limited permission by the Emperor to continue with the "experiment".

Now here is the chief reason why the rune priests of Russ were explicitly excluded from the Nikaea decree;

The rune priests of Russ were not created by the Librarius program of Magnus. At Nikaea, the Emperor censured everything and anything every touched by Magnus' influence, of which the rune priests of the Space Wolves were never a part of during the creation of the Librarium. At no time have the rune priests of the Space Wolves been founded by, followed, or been trained by the doctrines set forth by Magnus as was the rest of the Legions Librariums.

1. The rune priests are from the Fenrisian culture of shamanistic practices, not the Librarium as created by Magnus.

2. Their powers are said to be significantly different because of their origin (shamanistic culture of Fenris)

3. They do not use the Librarius standard psychic hoods.

4. They do not use the Librarius standard force weapon.

That is why you have the VI Legion attacking Prospero, with both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in support. Whatever the mission was or was skewed by Horus from the Emperor, the presence of those two additional elements shows that Russ had the full support of the Emperor in his mission.

The Emperor said no psychic powers, except those requisite for the operation of the Imperium (navigators, astropaths). He didn't say, "no psychic powers from anyone who is Magnus' friend on facebook".

Rune Priest powers are also no different to those used by the other Librarians. They ignorantly believed their powers to source from the "natural cycle of Fenris".

Just look through my post history on topics pertaining to Wolves and the Thousand Sons, I've quoted the relevant passages from the Index Astartes and the Horus Heresy novels several times.

The Council of Nikaea was a complete censure of Magnus and all that he believed and created. Before Prospero Burns, the Council of Nikaea was sorcery and not psychic power as has been retconned.

As it was decreed, that the Legions would disband their Librarius departments and send the Librarians back to their battle companies and never employ their psychic powers.

So what exactly were the Space Wolves supposed to disband?

The fact remains that the Wolves were NOT sanctioned as the Thousand Sons were for use of psychic powers. The fact remains that even the Index Astartes article on librarians tells you that rune priests are exceptions to the Codex Astartes for librarians. The fact is that they were never part of any Librarius program as founded by Magnus and were thus never part of the decree by the Emperor at Nikaea.

The Index Astartes says their beliefs are different. Unless you are actually trying to claim that their powers are not Warp/psychic-based, in which case we can all just agree to laugh in your face and go on with our lives.

Omegus wrote:The Index Astartes says their beliefs are different. Unless you are actually trying to claim that their powers are not Warp/psychic-based, in which case we can all just agree to laugh in your face and go on with our lives.

Next time you think you have a trump card, actually check your facts. The IA article does mention that their beliefs are different. However it flat out tells you that the powers are different;

The particular psychic powers and practises that they employ, however, are based on the traditional shamans of their homeworld, Fenris, and as such are very different to the Codex form.

So let's look at what exactly what happens and what the Emperor does at the Council of Nikaea aka the trial of Magnus the Red.

1. The only testimony given to the reader is only about the sorcery committed by Magnus and the Thousand Sons.

2. Magnus' rebuttal to it is based on the quest for knowledge and power gained from said knowledge.

3. When the Emperor locks his gaze, Magnus makes the exclamation, "If I am guilty of anything, it is the pursuit of knowledge. I am its master, I swear it."

4. The entirety of the Emperor's lecture is focused specifically focused on gaining power through knowledge gleaned from the warp, I.E., exactly what Magnus' vision of humanity speech was entirely about.

6. We finally get to the actualy wording of the Empero's decree:

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers

The Emperor is explicit in that it is the warriors and instructors of the former Librarius departments that are never again to employ psychic powers. It is right there in the last sentence!

So again, looking at the Space Wolves, they never had a Librarius department as founded/trained by Magnus' vision for humanity. The rune priests were never a product of Magnus' vision. In fact the IA article says that the Fenrisian shamanistic methods have remained unchanged for, "countless centuries" further distancing itself from any of Magnus' influence.

The rune priests were not guilty of what Magnus' viewed as the destiny of humanity. They were not guilty of what the Emperor declared was the problem, delving into the warp for knowledge as a means of acquiring power without first acquiring wisdom.

That is why they were not held to the Emperors decree at the Council of Nikaea and that is why they were never sanctioned by the Emperor for continuing to use powers after the Council of Nikaea.

An outdated IA article, which is superseded by the current Space Wolves codex, and A Thousand Sons. They use the Warp like any other Librarian Corps. Their belief system makes them think that they don't, they pretty much ignored Nikea due to their ignorant beliefs.

The powers they manifest are different, but they are still Warp/psychic based! Durpadurp!

iproxtaco wrote:An outdated IA article, which is superseded by the current Space Wolves codex, and A Thousand Sons. They use the Warp like any other Librarian Corps. Their belief system makes them think that they don't, they pretty much ignored Nikea due to their ignorant beliefs.

So let me so how this works; you try and quote the IA article as part of your argument, I shut you down with the very same article, and then you attack said article as being outdated. Can't face the argument so just attack the source? How the rest of my post that quotes A Thousand Sons? Are you going to dismiss that then?

The IA article debunks your argument, it doesn't support it. It establishes that the traditions and beliefs of the Wolves are different from Codex behavior, because they are based on shamanist rituals passed on by word of mouth.

That doesn't change the nature of their powers. It just makes them willfully blind to reality. It's the same attitude that has the Imperium praying to guns to make them shoot moar bettah.

Omegus wrote:The powers they manifest are different, but they are still Warp/psychic based! Durpadurp!

I gave you the direct quote of what the Emperor decreed. Read the actual speech he gives and then come back to this thread. The Emperor SPECIFICALLY orders the disbanding of the Librarius departments. He SPECIFICALLY orders that the librarians and instructors of said disbanded Librarius departments are not to employ psychic powers.

Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.
The use of psychic powers =/= being a librarian.
Rune Priest =/= Librarians.

It is spelled out in the old IA article, it is reinforced by A Thousand Sons, and the proof lies in the fact that the Space Wolves were never sanctioned for their use of psychic powers.

Brother Ramses wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:An outdated IA article, which is superseded by the current Space Wolves codex, and A Thousand Sons. They use the Warp like any other Librarian Corps. Their belief system makes them think that they don't, they pretty much ignored Nikea due to their ignorant beliefs.

So let me so how this works; you try and quote the IA article as part of your argument, I shut you down with the very same article, and then you attack said article as being outdated. Can't face the argument so just attack the source? How the rest of my post that quotes A Thousand Sons? Are you going to dismiss that then?

What are you talking about? I haven't quoted Index Astartes in this thread, likely not even on this forum. I'm simply stating that it is outdated by the current Space Wolves codex and A Thousand Sons, both of which back my argument and not yours. I also haven't attacked the A Thousand Sons quotes because they're correct, you're simply using an outdated article as a source for you're argument, and then wrongly thinking that the book backs it up.


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Brother Ramses wrote:

Omegus wrote:The powers they manifest are different, but they are still Warp/psychic based! Durpadurp!

I gave you the direct quote of what the Emperor decreed. Read the actual speech he gives and then come back to this thread. The Emperor SPECIFICALLY orders the disbanding of the Librarius departments. He SPECIFICALLY orders that the librarians and instructors of said disbanded Librarius departments are not to employ psychic powers.

Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.
The use of psychic powers =/= being a librarian.
Rune Priest =/= Librarians.

It is spelled out in the old IA article, it is reinforced by A Thousand Sons, and the proof lies in the fact that the Space Wolves were never sanctioned for their use of psychic powers.

No ones arguing that point, there's no need to repeat it. They were different, I agree, but Rune Priests still used psychic powers just like the Sons, but the Wolves sanctioned the Sons for their use.

Brother Ramses wrote:Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.

I'm pretty sure the Thousand Sons didn't either. Psychic powers were manifest throughout the legion, not simply in a "Librarius" department. This is what Russ objected to, and Russ' hatred for Magnus' quest for knowledge is what led him to ally with Horus to take out the one true threat to the Heresy.

Your interpretation of the Emperor's decree at Nikaea nullifies its effect as to the Thousand Sons.

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.

I'm pretty sure the Thousand Sons didn't either. Psychic powers were manifest throughout the legion, not simply in a "Librarius" department. This is what Russ objected to, and Russ' hatred for Magnus' quest for knowledge is what led him to ally with Horus to take out the one true threat to the Heresy.

Your interpretation of the Emperor's decree at Nikaea nullifies its effect as to the Thousand Sons.

A Thousand Sons, page 322:

The Emperor had sanctioned these first experiments as a means of directing and controlling the power of emerging psykers within the Astartes, and Librarius departments were formed within the Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, and White Scars to train them. Such was the success of these early experiments that Magnus pushed for his program to be expanded, allowing other Legions to benefit from his research.

The original request to begin the experimentation of psykers within the Legions was opposed by Russ, Dorn, Moratorion, and Corax.

And the "Horus" thing placed both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons as the greatest threats to the Heresy, not the Thousand Sons solely. He even admits to failure of the plan for them to destroy each other because Magnus chose to accept the Emperor's sanction at first to only later decide to fully commit to the forces of Chaos when he entered the battle against Russ.




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iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:An outdated IA article, which is superseded by the current Space Wolves codex, and A Thousand Sons. They use the Warp like any other Librarian Corps. Their belief system makes them think that they don't, they pretty much ignored Nikea due to their ignorant beliefs.

So let me so how this works; you try and quote the IA article as part of your argument, I shut you down with the very same article, and then you attack said article as being outdated. Can't face the argument so just attack the source? How the rest of my post that quotes A Thousand Sons? Are you going to dismiss that then?

What are you talking about? I haven't quoted Index Astartes in this thread, likely not even on this forum. I'm simply stating that it is outdated by the current Space Wolves codex and A Thousand Sons, both of which back my argument and not yours. I also haven't attacked the A Thousand Sons quotes because they're correct, you're simply using an outdated article as a source for you're argument, and then wrongly thinking that the book backs it up.


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Brother Ramses wrote:

Omegus wrote:The powers they manifest are different, but they are still Warp/psychic based! Durpadurp!

I gave you the direct quote of what the Emperor decreed. Read the actual speech he gives and then come back to this thread. The Emperor SPECIFICALLY orders the disbanding of the Librarius departments. He SPECIFICALLY orders that the librarians and instructors of said disbanded Librarius departments are not to employ psychic powers.

Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.
The use of psychic powers =/= being a librarian.
Rune Priest =/= Librarians.

It is spelled out in the old IA article, it is reinforced by A Thousand Sons, and the proof lies in the fact that the Space Wolves were never sanctioned for their use of psychic powers.

No ones arguing that point, there's no need to repeat it. They were different, I agree, but Rune Priests still used psychic powers just like the Sons, but the Wolves sanctioned the Sons for their use.

Yea I hit the wrong quote button since it was Omegus using the IA article.

And the IA are about as current cannon that we can rely on that still meshes as best it can with the Black Library authors. If we look at what the IA article states about the Thousand Sons and the Council of Nikaea;

He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic.

That is what McNeil expanded upon with the Emperor's speech about acquiring power through knowledge without first obtaining wisdom. McNeil himself is following the basic tenets of the Council of Nikaea as presented in the IA article and expanding upon them for the story.

No he said all Legions should disband their Librariums but that is because he banned psychic powers, disbanding the Librariums was merely part of that. ALL psychic were banned, which would mean the rune-priest psychic are also banned.

You can hand me a bunch of gak and call it chocolate, but in the end, its gak!

moonshine wrote:No he said all Legions should disband their Librariums but that is because he banned psychic powers, disbanding the Librariums was merely part of that. ALL psychic were banned, which would mean the rune-priest psychic are also banned.

How about you actually read what the Emperor said and then what he actually decreed before trying to contribute to the conversation?

Seriously, people just spout off what they think or heard from someone else to then just continue parroting it over and over again without any back-up.


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Omegus wrote:The IA article debunks your argument, it doesn't support it. It establishes that the traditions and beliefs of the Wolves are different from Codex behavior, because they are based on shamanist rituals passed on by word of mouth.

That doesn't change the nature of their powers. It just makes them willfully blind to reality. It's the same attitude that has the Imperium praying to guns to make them shoot moar bettah.

The particular psychic powers and practises that they employ, however, are based on the traditional shamans of their homeworld, Fenris, and as such are very different to the Codex form.

That is a direct quote from the IA article. It specifically tells you that because they are based on the traditional shamans of their homeworld the a VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE CODEX FORM.

Please by all means tell me how they are the same as the what the Librarius does and the same as what Magnus expanded across several of the Legions via the Librarium.

Brother Ramses wrote:

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.

I'm pretty sure the Thousand Sons didn't either. Psychic powers were manifest throughout the legion, not simply in a "Librarius" department. This is what Russ objected to, and Russ' hatred for Magnus' quest for knowledge is what led him to ally with Horus to take out the one true threat to the Heresy.

Your interpretation of the Emperor's decree at Nikaea nullifies its effect as to the Thousand Sons.

A Thousand Sons, page 322:

The Emperor had sanctioned these first experiments as a means of directing and controlling the power of emerging psykers within the Astartes, and Librarius departments were formed within the Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, and White Scars to train them. Such was the success of these early experiments that Magnus pushed for his program to be expanded, allowing other Legions to benefit from his research.

The original request to begin the experimentation of psykers within the Legions was opposed by Russ, Dorn, Moratorion, and Corax.

The psykers of the Thousand Sons predated the Librarius departments. Your position seems to be that "Librarians" were outlawed at Nikaea. This would have very little effect on the Thousand Sons, as most of their psykers weren't "Librarians."

The Edict of Nikaea was that all use of psykers was prohibited, except for Astropaths and Navigators, who were necessary to the administration of the Imperium. Russ blatently ignored this Edict while simultaneously enforcing it against the Thousand Sons.

Brother Ramses wrote:And the "Horus" thing placed both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons as the greatest threats to the Heresy, not the Thousand Sons solely. He even admits to failure of the plan for them to destroy each other because Magnus chose to accept the Emperor's sanction at first to only later decide to fully commit to the forces of Chaos when he entered the battle against Russ.

Right. Convert one, use them to wipe out the other. It worked, until Magnus switched to Chaos.

I continue to wonder what Russ got from the Emperor to allow him back into the fold.

Okay, I'll grant that Brother Ramses' interpretation of the Council of Nikea, that the whole result was purely to sanction Magnus and the Librarius departments he formed, is interesting. Hell, upon re-reading the appropriate pages of A Thousand Sons, this interpretation may well be right (holy crap, did someone just accept an opposing viewpoint on the internet?! the apocalypse is surely upon us).

This doesn't change, however, the original intent of this thread... that Russ and his Wolves are donkey-caves, bullies and hypocrites, in no particular order. Just because they view their powers as stemming from "the life and death cycle of Fenris" doesn't make their powers any less Warp-derived. Just because their chanting and bone-rattling is different from the methods established by the Librarius (and ironically enough, such superstition was very much looked down upon in the time of the Great Crusade, so I'm surprised it wasn't Russ' home planet being bombarded from orbit rather than Lorgar's), doesn't mean they still aren't drawing upon the power of the Warp. Their resistance to Chaos temptation stems from the Canix Helix, otherwise the whole Legion would have turned to Khorne ages ago.

Furthermore, it seems necessity led the Imperium to swiftly overturn the Emperor's decree, since a Librarius department is standard operating procedure in any Codex Chapter. Likewise, his assertion that few have the strength of character to know of the Warp and not succumb to its temptations, seems to have been proven wrong on multiple occasions... from the Thousand Sons who were outraged enough by the daemonic shenanigans of their Primarch to create the Rubric, to the recently re-imagined Grey Knights and Exorcists chapters.

Of course, this is in keeping with the Emperor's preferred strategy of keeping everyone else in the dark, which is what brings about the Heresy in the first place. We can only conclude that the Emperor was a fool or a liar. And since pets frequently mirror their owners, if the Emperor was a jackass, so was his dog.

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Space Wolves have never had a Librarius department.

I'm pretty sure the Thousand Sons didn't either. Psychic powers were manifest throughout the legion, not simply in a "Librarius" department. This is what Russ objected to, and Russ' hatred for Magnus' quest for knowledge is what led him to ally with Horus to take out the one true threat to the Heresy.

Your interpretation of the Emperor's decree at Nikaea nullifies its effect as to the Thousand Sons.

A Thousand Sons, page 322:

The Emperor had sanctioned these first experiments as a means of directing and controlling the power of emerging psykers within the Astartes, and Librarius departments were formed within the Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, and White Scars to train them. Such was the success of these early experiments that Magnus pushed for his program to be expanded, allowing other Legions to benefit from his research.

The original request to begin the experimentation of psykers within the Legions was opposed by Russ, Dorn, Moratorion, and Corax.

The psykers of the Thousand Sons predated the Librarius departments. Your position seems to be that "Librarians" were outlawed at Nikaea. This would have very little effect on the Thousand Sons, as most of their psykers weren't "Librarians."

The Edict of Nikaea was that all use of psykers was prohibited, except for Astropaths and Navigators, who were necessary to the administration of the Imperium. Russ blatently ignored this Edict while simultaneously enforcing it against the Thousand Sons.

Brother Ramses wrote:And the "Horus" thing placed both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons as the greatest threats to the Heresy, not the Thousand Sons solely. He even admits to failure of the plan for them to destroy each other because Magnus chose to accept the Emperor's sanction at first to only later decide to fully commit to the forces of Chaos when he entered the battle against Russ.

Right. Convert one, use them to wipe out the other. It worked, until Magnus switched to Chaos.

I continue to wonder what Russ got from the Emperor to allow him back into the fold.

Biccat, read the fluff.

From the Thousand Sons, IA:

He (the Emperor) bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic

This is reinforced by the speech that the Emperor gave in A Thousand Sons prior to giving his decree in which he points out seeking knowledge to obtain power without first obtaining wisdom is wrong. The decree is then as follows;

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers.

The decree was not a banning of psychic powers as you want to try and put forth. It was a disbanding of the Librarius departments and the banning of use of psyhic powers by those warriors and instructors. Again it does not apply to the Space Wolves as they never had a Librarius department and their rune priests were never warriors or instructors of said Librarius departments.

And as I already pointed out the lecture that the Emperor gave before the decree was that the seeking of knowledge within the warp as a means of obtaining power (exactly what the Thousands Sons were doing since they were reunited with Magnus) was wrong and should not be done. As I also pointed out, the Thousand Sons did form their own Librarius. So it was a massive double whammy against Magnus as has been said, The Council of Nikaea aka The Trial of Magnus the Red, because not only was his precious Librarius program disbanded by decree, but his entire philosophy of gleaning knowledge from the unknown warp, etc, etc was deemed wrong as well.

Omegus wrote:Okay, I'll grant that Brother Ramses' interpretation of the Council of Nikea, that the whole result was purely to sanction Magnus and the Librarius departments he formed, is interesting. Hell, upon re-reading the appropriate pages of A Thousand Sons, this interpretation may well be right (holy crap, did someone just accept an opposing viewpoint on the internet?! the apocalypse is surely upon us).

This doesn't change, however, the original intent of this thread... that Russ and his Wolves are donkey-caves, bullies and hypocrites, in no particular order. Just because they view their powers as stemming from "the life and death cycle of Fenris" doesn't make their powers any less Warp-derived. Just because their chanting and bone-rattling is different from the methods established by the Librarius (and ironically enough, such superstition was very much looked down upon in the time of the Great Crusade, so I'm surprised it wasn't Russ' home planet being bombarded from orbit rather than Lorgar's), doesn't mean they still aren't drawing upon the power of the Warp. Their resistance to Chaos temptation stems from the Canix Helix, otherwise the whole Legion would have turned to Khorne ages ago.

Furthermore, it seems necessity led the Imperium to swiftly overturn the Emperor's decree, since a Librarius department is standard operating procedure in any Codex Chapter. Likewise, his assertion that few have the strength of character to know of the Warp and not succumb to its temptations, seems to have been proven wrong on multiple occasions... from the Thousand Sons who were outraged enough by the daemonic shenanigans of their Primarch to create the Rubric, to the recently re-imagined Grey Knights and Exorcists chapters.

Of course, this is in keeping with the Emperor's preferred strategy of keeping everyone else in the dark, which is what brings about the Heresy in the first place. We can only conclude that the Emperor was a fool or a liar. And since pets frequently mirror their owners, if the Emperor was a jackass, so was his dog.

Now it just seems that you are placing your personal opinion of the Wolves as basis of your argument which just then biases everything you have to say.

I would have you notice that both in A Thousand Sons and in Prospero Burns, it is expressed that the task of sanctioning the Thousand Sons is not done with any joy or sense of victory by the Wolves. For them it was just another dirty job they were tasked with doing in which at the time they found no honor in having to do. As I said, this is pointed out in A Thousand Sons and is pointed out by Kasper in Prospero Burns.

Yet they fell on their opponent with great relish despite the fact that there were no active defenses or (at least initially) any organized resistance. And that interpretation jives with the events that took place earlier in A Thousand Sons where the Wolves attacked the Thousand Sons because the latter didn't want a library to be burned to the ground. Russ then gleefully executed a mutating TS despite the fact that his Legion utilizes mutants to this day, and was ready to attack Magnus until Lorgar intervened. This was well before any orders from the Emperor, and before Horus' alleged manipulation of his orders.

Then there's the Runepriest who instigated the whole Council of Nikea. As he was striding through the burning library, he was gloating to the dying TS (Amon?). He was gloating all the way up to the point when Ahriman blasted his mind with the truth and then fed him to the warp predators.

The wolves said a lot of things about how noble they are and how distasteful they find their tasks, but their actions show that to be abject falsehoods.

Brother Ramses wrote:Biccat, read the fluff.

I have, thanks for the advice.

Brother Ramses wrote:From the Thousand Sons, IA:

He (the Emperor) bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic

Are you trying to make the argument that the Rune Priests practice their magic in any way different than the Thousand Sons? Because this has been well refuted.

Brother Ramses wrote:This is reinforced by the speech that the Emperor gave in A Thousand Sons prior to giving his decree in which he points out seeking knowledge to obtain power without first obtaining wisdom is wrong. The decree is then as follows;

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers.

The decree was not a banning of psychic powers as you want to try and put forth. It was a disbanding of the Librarius departments and the banning of use of psyhic powers by those warriors and instructors. Again it does not apply to the Space Wolves as they never had a Librarius department and their rune priests were never warriors or instructors of said Librarius departments.

I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly narrow parsing of the decree. If this were so, why would the Emperor exempt Navigators and Astropaths from the decree? These individuals weren't Librarians, but they were psykers.

And if the ban was on Librarians, what was the harm in the non-Librarian Thousand Sons continuing to use their powers? Magnus in particular was never part of "a Librarius department." He was not "a warrior [or] instructor." So obviously he should have been exempt from the ban.

Brother Ramses, you are making valid points but somehow are still not grasping the actual argument.

If the Rune Priests powers did not originate from the warp then Othere could not have saved Ahriman. And likewise, Ahriman could not have doomed Othere to the warp.

Do you get it now? Regardless of your interpretation of events, it does NOT change the source of the Rune Priests power.

Wait, at Nikea the emporer said that the only psykers still used by the impirium would be Astropaths and Navigators

SickSix wrote:Brother Ramses, you are making valid points but somehow are still not grasping the actual argument.

If the Rune Priests powers did not originate from the warp then Othere could not have saved Ahriman. And likewise, Ahriman could not have doomed Othere to the warp.

Do you get it now? Regardless of your interpretation of events, it does NOT change the source of the Rune Priests power.

The issue at hand is not where their powers initiate from, but how they were initiated. Many of you are failing to see the actual argument with what the Emperor found at fault.

Based on the lecture give by the Emperor and the subsequent banning of the very Libariums that Magnus is responsible for creating and propagating within the Legions, it was the manner of how they viewed and used their psychic powers.

In his lecture, the Emperor specifically targets the philosophy that Magnus believed was the destiny for humanity. In fact the entire lecture given by the Emperor directly nullifies the eloquent speech that Magnus gave in his own defense and later gasped under the gaze of the Emperor;

The manner of which the Thousand Sons sought their knowledge, the manner in which the librarians of the Librarius were trained and employed were all under the same philosophy of Magnus in that they were seeking knowledge from the warp to obtain their powers without first obtaining wisdom. That is the very crux of the Council of Nikaea, that is the very basis for the anger that Magnus feels afterwards. As many of you are trying to argue,

"The Emperor said no more psychic powers yet the Wolves used psychic powers!!"

That is not what the Council was doing. It was the complete destruction of everything Magnus had ever believed was the destiny for humanity. It was the complete destruction of everything Magnus was trying to do with the introduction of psykers into the Legions. It was the Emperor telling Magnus,

"Everything you think you know about the warp is false and everything you are doing to incorporate them into my Legions is based on that false assumption, therefore I am banning it from my Legions."

That is the razors edge of distinction that most of you are failing to see. The Wolves faced no sanction for their continued use of psychic powers because the rune priests never followed the philosophy or beliefs that Magnus did and was trying to incorporate into the Legions.

The key point that is being missed by almost everyone,

It was not the use of psychic powers in the Imperium that the Emperor found fault. It was the philosophy of Magnus and how he was implementing it within the Astartes that was found at fault. That is the what happened at the Council of Nikaea.

You still aren't recognizing that the Rune Priests fall under those who use psychic powers, which were banned from the Legions. Unless more information arises which says that the Emperor exempted them from this decree, then the Rune Priests were going against the ruling, just like the Thousand Sons.

Ramses: Oh my lord, you truly have blinders on.
Dude, step back and take breath.

When WE (not the emperor) call the SW hypocrites, we are justified. When WE, the readers look at this situation as NONE of the characters involved could have, we know that the wolves were ignorant and also supremely arrogant and hypocritical.

You realize that some of us aren't even arguing your points about Nikea? I think even Omegus conceded a point or two to you. Stop arguing on behalf of the characters involved and look at it as a reader that has been exposed to both sides like none involved. Yes they used and learned their power differently. But it is still warp power, and they still willfully harbor and use mutants. They are hypocrites. And it has been well argued some were just liars, and not nearly as noble or humble in their task as they purported.

You can't argue the points of Nikaea because you are wrong. I have shown that through the fluff and the novels.

I have also shown the reasons behind the Wolves exemption. Most of you do not want to see that for whatever various reasons that may be; don't like SM, don't like SW, TS fanboi, got your list pushed in by a SW player, etc, etc. YOU calling them hypocrites is just evidence of something personal, beyond what the storyline shows you.

And Taco, you continue to misrepresent what the puropose of the Council of Nikaea was to do. I can't lay it out any clearer then I have with the quotes and the articles I have provided. You are either biased by some personal reason or as ignorant as you claim the SW to be.

Brother Ramses wrote:You can't argue the points of Nikaea because you are wrong. I have shown that through the fluff and the novels.

I have also shown the reasons behind the Wolves exemption. Most of you do not want to see that for whatever various reasons that may be; don't like SM, don't like SW, TS fanboi, got your list pushed in by a SW player, etc, etc. YOU calling them hypocrites is just evidence of something personal, beyond what the storyline shows you.

And Taco, you continue to misrepresent what the puropose of the Council of Nikaea was to do. I can't lay it out any clearer then I have with the quotes and the articles I have provided. You are either biased by some personal reason or as ignorant as you claim the SW to be.

If I have made no argument about the Council of Nikea, how can I be wrong? So now I am wrong by default?

Your starting to lose credibility....

You also have yet to adress or refute the SOURCE of their psychic abilities. Just because they use them differently does not mean the power is different.