Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In your opinion they aren't canon. I think they are, although several works have been pretty much discounted by the community as a whole, you know which ones.
If we were to ignore all novels we'd have one hell of a lot less to work with. Anyhoo, my A Thousand Sons copy has a picture of a model behind the back cover, A-grade canon right there.

I think the official line is, they are canon but if they conflict with a codex or the rulebook then the codex/rulebook is right and not the novel.

I don't think that the Alpha Legion sided with Horus in order to destroy Chaos. I think that they deliberately orchestrated events so that the Heresy would go down the way it did. Neither Horus nor the Emperor survived the Heresy, and so neither of the Cabal's predictions could come true. Both predictions were hingent on one of the two leaders surviving. I think the Alpha Legion wanted to take the third option, and give humanity a chance to fight for their own destiny. The rest of the novel sets up the Alpha Legion as the 'red-headed stepchild' of the legions. They didn't feel like they had any definable purpose (which is why they fought in such an enigmatic fashion, trying to forge their own purpose) and the Cabal's prophecy finally gave them meaning.

That, of course, is just my take on it.

Jimsolo wrote:I don't think that the Alpha Legion sided with Horus in order to destroy Chaos. I think that they deliberately orchestrated events so that the Heresy would go down the way it did. Neither Horus nor the Emperor survived the Heresy, and so neither of the Cabal's predictions could come true. Both predictions were hingent on one of the two leaders surviving. I think the Alpha Legion wanted to take the third option, and give humanity a chance to fight for their own destiny. The rest of the novel sets up the Alpha Legion as the 'red-headed stepchild' of the legions. They didn't feel like they had any definable purpose (which is why they fought in such an enigmatic fashion, trying to forge their own purpose) and the Cabal's prophecy finally gave them meaning.

That, of course, is just my take on it.

Well then I really like your take on it. Thats truly enough to agree with after reading quite a bit of fluff anout the alpha legion online

Jimsolo wrote:I don't think that the Alpha Legion sided with Horus in order to destroy Chaos. I think that they deliberately orchestrated events so that the Heresy would go down the way it did. Neither Horus nor the Emperor survived the Heresy, and so neither of the Cabal's predictions could come true. Both predictions were hingent on one of the two leaders surviving. I think the Alpha Legion wanted to take the third option, and give humanity a chance to fight for their own destiny. The rest of the novel sets up the Alpha Legion as the 'red-headed stepchild' of the legions. They didn't feel like they had any definable purpose (which is why they fought in such an enigmatic fashion, trying to forge their own purpose) and the Cabal's prophecy finally gave them meaning.

That, of course, is just my take on it.

I can't find the "Like" button...

This theory is by far the most intriguing one I've come across, it's definitely plausible and fits with Alpharius Omegon.

Perkustin wrote:Novels are not canon, they are novels. Unless it is a resource/sourcebook directly related to the hobby, i.e contains either rules text or pictures of models etc, it is not canon merely a work inspired by the warhammer 40,000 wargame.

and we all know how well GW sticks to its guns...

Let me tell you a story about the Squats...

Spareknikov wrote:If you take the lore of Legion as gospel, it tells you why the Alpha Legion turns traitor towards the end, and it fits in very well with their battlecry in their Index Astartes entry IMHO.

I don't want to post it here because of Spoilers.

True, but IIRC it also doesn't say if they actually follow what the Cabal say...

Jimsolo wrote:I don't think that the Alpha Legion sided with Horus in order to destroy Chaos. I think that they deliberately orchestrated events so that the Heresy would go down the way it did. Neither Horus nor the Emperor survived the Heresy, and so neither of the Cabal's predictions could come true. Both predictions were hingent on one of the two leaders surviving. I think the Alpha Legion wanted to take the third option, and give humanity a chance to fight for their own destiny. The rest of the novel sets up the Alpha Legion as the 'red-headed stepchild' of the legions. They didn't feel like they had any definable purpose (which is why they fought in such an enigmatic fashion, trying to forge their own purpose) and the Cabal's prophecy finally gave them meaning.

That, of course, is just my take on it.

Actually, their prediction was that if the Horus Heresy failed, the Imperium would be condemned to several tens of thousands of years of slow stagnation and inevitable decay until Chaos finally claimed the whole universe. Which is exactly what is happening.

I just looked at it again. And neither of the two prophecies came true. The Emperor didn't die at Terra, (although he came close) and Horus didn't survive. Ergo, there is a slim margin for success for the human race.

If I'm wrong, it meanst that the Alpha Legion threw in with Horus in order to cause Horus to win the Heresy and destroy Chaos. But once Horus lost, that whole plan went out the window, so why are they still fighting the Imperium? It don't think it makes sense.

Honestly though, I think that there is multiple interpretations of what happened there. The whole point of that book was that the Alpha Legion is supposed to be the most mysterious of the Legions. Abnett did a phenomenal job writing it, and I think he carried off the whole 'air of mystery' thing very well. So well, that their motive is very unclear, meaning that there are many ways to view it.

I like my way of looking at it, since it makes the Alpha Legion one of two Chaos groups who actually make any kind of sense. Other opinions, of course, are still valid.

What's the other group, may I ask?

The Alpha Legion are interesting because they're one of the few forces which we, the readers basically, know the same amount of info as the actual people in the story. With many other forces, we know several little bits that the characters don't, like The Lion in the rock. No one, or possibly only the Emperor know he's in the rock.

iproxtaco wrote:What's the other group, may I ask?

The Alpha Legion are interesting because they're one of the few forces which we, the readers basically, know the same amount of info as the actual people in the story. With many other forces, we know several little bits that the characters don't, like The Lion in the rock. No one, or possibly only the Emperor know he's in the rock.

I also like the Night Lords. They seem like they have a plausible reason for rebelling against the Imperium, and I like that their fluff quite clearly establishes that they do not whole heartedly embrace Chaos. Unlike some other Legions I could name. And I take that back, by the way, I also like the Word Bearers a little.

But some, like the Black Legion and the Emperor's Children, just don't make any sense in the way they operate. Others, like the World Eaters, make perfect (story) sense in how they function, but not in how they are still around to function.

I dunno. Chaos, as a whole, just seems to me to be a poorly thought out concept, from a story point of view. A few authors (Abnett, Dembski-Bowden) have done a good job in trying to cut a swath through the silliness, but the vast majority of it is still a jungle of contradiction, story gaps and good old fashioned ludicrousness.

That is, of course, just my opinion. If you like Chaos, more power to you. I'm glad someone does.

Alpha Legion has a secret base in the Terran System, (from the Renagade Codex just fluff I read). Being Infitration Specialists I dont doubt they have adjents within the Imperium hence the files being changed. The story I heard was that Alpha Legion turned renagade after the HH, as Russ acused them of turning to Chaos and they went into hiding, to attempt to regain there lost honor. As to what they are doing today is a mystery, they fight for the Imperum at times and fight for Choas at others. My bet is they mercenaries awaiting to redeem themselfs.

Jimsolo wrote:I also like the Night Lords. They seem like they have a plausible reason for rebelling against the Imperium

If by "plausible reason" you meant "a collection of psychopaths, murderers and rapists finally having an excuse to cut loose with no recriminations or consequences", then yes, I agree.

Jimsolo wrote:I don't think that the Alpha Legion sided with Horus in order to destroy Chaos. I think that they deliberately orchestrated events so that the Heresy would go down the way it did. Neither Horus nor the Emperor survived the Heresy, and so neither of the Cabal's predictions could come true. Both predictions were hingent on one of the two leaders surviving. I think the Alpha Legion wanted to take the third option, and give humanity a chance to fight for their own destiny. The rest of the novel sets up the Alpha Legion as the 'red-headed stepchild' of the legions. They didn't feel like they had any definable purpose (which is why they fought in such an enigmatic fashion, trying to forge their own purpose) and the Cabal's prophecy finally gave them meaning.

That, of course, is just my take on it.

I REALLY like this theory - a lot!

It works well with my 'too clever by half' explanation as well!

Just Dave wrote:
True, but IIRC it also doesn't say if they actually follow what the Cabal say...

Yup, that's the biggie - we don't know why they are doing what they are doing, or what they ultimately intended on doing.

I'm guessing it is more along the lines of "We can do this our way and save the Emperor and Humanity. And kill a bunch of meddling Xenos." vs. "Yes, oh wise Xenos leaders, we will help you wipe out all oh Humanity so that you can have free reign over the galaxy once again."

Omegus wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:I also like the Night Lords. They seem like they have a plausible reason for rebelling against the Imperium

If by "plausible reason" you meant "a collection of psychopaths, murderers and rapists finally having an excuse to cut loose with no recriminations or consequences", then yes, I agree.

Actually, I meant in the "we did a very specific job for our bosses and were then censured for the very job we were doing, which was to eliminate the kind of people attracted to this sort of job, which ironically validates the need to have someone doing this job in the first place, so we're not going to take it anymore" kind of way.

Dembski-Bowden writes the villainous novel well. He understands that you have to largely remove all heroes from the novel, in order to allow the audience the moral free reign to root for the bad guy. He also seems to understand that in the best villainous stories, the villain will reinforce (at the end) their villainous nature, making the audience feel guilty for supportin them the entire time.

As a side note Omegus, do you like anything?

Do you ever have anything positive to say?

At all?

That's a very specific kind of way Jimsolo...

LordWynne wrote:Alpha Legion has a secret base in the Terran System, (from the Renagade Codex just fluff I read). Being Infitration Specialists I dont doubt they have adjents within the Imperium hence the files being changed. The story I heard was that Alpha Legion turned renagade after the HH, as Russ acused them of turning to Chaos and they went into hiding, to attempt to regain there lost honor. As to what they are doing today is a mystery, they fight for the Imperum at times and fight for Choas at others. My bet is they mercenaries awaiting to redeem themselfs.

None of that is accurate.

DarknessEternal wrote:

LordWynne wrote:Alpha Legion has a secret base in the Terran System, (from the Renagade Codex just fluff I read). Being Infitration Specialists I dont doubt they have adjents within the Imperium hence the files being changed. The story I heard was that Alpha Legion turned renagade after the HH, as Russ acused them of turning to Chaos and they went into hiding, to attempt to regain there lost honor. As to what they are doing today is a mystery, they fight for the Imperum at times and fight for Choas at others. My bet is they mercenaries awaiting to redeem themselfs.

None of that is accurate.

Yeah, Choas totally isn't a thing...

What everyone said.

Love the playing both sides, 3rd Option theory!

So does that mean the money goes on the Alpha Legion being behind the shields being lowered on Horus's Flagship during the battle of Terra, setting up the 'final' confrontation?

As if Horus picked that fight on his terms as per the canon, then why didnt he win? Why didnt he stack the odds further in his favour.

I've seen that particular theory a few times on the net...

Personally, I hope it is true!

Me too. Plus, your approval has to be worth bonus points.

You'd think so, but the Legion is just so damn independent these days!

BluntmanDC wrote:
Index Astartes described them as "one soul in two bodies".

For what it's worth 'one soul in two bodies' is famously the answer Aristotle gave to the question 'what is a true friend?'

The intention might just have been to establish Alpharius and Omegon as being best-friends-forever.

ANd not to nitpick, but that info was in LEGION, and not in the Index Astartes article which came out long before LEGION and much of which is now cast into doubt...

What irritates me is that the WHOLE of the index astartes article is NOT Alpha legion fabrication, two parts of it were: the origin of Alpharius (for whatever reason) and the Death of Alpharius (Just in case). The rest was written by the same omniscient narrator who writes the rest of the CANON fluff for all armies.

So i've read Legion and thought the Alpha Legion was a really cool chapter, but sortve forgot about them as i got more into the series and now after reading all this ive remebered how awesome they are. Space wolve's may be my favorite space marines/ anything in W40K, but the Alpha Legion is definitly a close second.

So after all this my my main question would be has the Alpha Legion succumbed to chaos or not then? They seem to be considered a traitor legion by all the loyal legions, however they still seem to be fighting for humanity in a sense, so are they considered "chaos" in the meaning of demon worshipping and mutations to their gene seed (I really hate all the horns and odd growths on chaos space marine miniatures lol) or not? If i was to start a alpha legion army could it be without all the wings and horns and wierd things seeping out of open cuts?

We don't know.

Probably not, but being the Alpha Legion, we don't know what their motivations are or whether they do worship Chaos. You could start an army without the Chaos Mutations/Cosmetics however...

So since we dont know really if they are chaos worshippers or not do we know anything about their wearabouts when the traitor legions attacked the imperial palace?

TheTaurans wrote:So since we dont know really if they are chaos worshippers or not

We do know that many of them definitely are. We have 3 decades of background material describing their daemonic pacts, worship, and rituals.

You can't fake summoning daemons.