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warpcrafter wrote:This discussion has clarified in my mind what is wrong with the tournament mindset. This doesn't apply to all tournament gamers, but enough that it is what turns me off. There are an extremely vocal minority of players who want to win at all costs, and despite their own constant attempts to fudge and twist and otherwise gain every little weasely advantage they can, they are also quick to point out anybody else whom they catch doing the same thing. Glue the doors shut on the damn drop pod but agree that they count as open for line of sight in the damn game and get over yourselves already.

This has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments. The rules say use TLoS, they say nothing about the drop pod doors opening or not, and LoS through pods honestly is far more restricted than many people realize. Trying to take shots through pods is far more gamey and abusive than just gluing the doors shut. Really, get down to a models eye view as the rulebook says, and try to see how often you'll ever actually see anything through a pod, much less something that isn't going to be getting a 4+ or often 3+ cover save.

Vaktathi wrote:This has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments. The rules say use TLoS, they say nothing about the drop pod doors opening or not, and LoS through pods honestly is far more restricted than many people realize. Trying to take shots through pods is far more gamey and abusive than just gluing the doors shut. Really, get down to a models eye view as the rulebook says, and try to see how often you'll ever actually see anything through a pod, much less something that isn't going to be getting a 4+ or often 3+ cover save.

Can I get a +1 on this?

DeathReaper wrote:
It can be seen as unsporting, but it is within the rules.

How can something within the rules be considered unsporting?

The doors dont count as part of the model you cant be within 1 inch of. Only the hull, you can stand on the doors if you want. Someone correct me if im wrong I dont have a book in front of me but I thought that drop pods specifically said they dont block line of sight, so with doors up or down it shouldnt matter, you just pretend you can see thru, move the model temporarily and check with a lazer pointer if your concerned. Drop pods were developed poorly in my opinion anyway, the more packed and terrain ridden your opponents side is the BETTER for you, means you have less area you can scatter. Also while vehicles can land without any troops in it, buying 6 drop pods just to block movement on your opponents side is crap, as an ork player I know better than most. And the worst part of em? If you are falling back next to an immobalized drop pod, weapon missing and all, you cant regroup. Pure stupidity. They should not prevent regroup.

The best answer I can find is on p69 of the SM codex under Transport.

'Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal. Once
passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the
Drop Pod for the remainder of the game.'

Since the hatches are blown you would be able to draw limited TLOS through the vehicle. A player that glues their drop pod door shut would now have to allow for LOS through his closed doors. Based on the wording of the codex can anyone really come up with an alternative?

DarknessEternal wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
It can be seen as unsporting, but it is within the rules.

How can something within the rules be considered unsporting?

Modeling for advantage, while not against the rules is unsporting.

I dont know about you guys, but I personally have neverbeen able to draw LOS through a drop pod, nor have I really ever tried...

I have drawn Los alot- Grey Hunters drop, position for cover behind pod from nasty shooting units, then rapid fire/melta the target unit. This works particularly well when the pod is between say a tank and a heavy weapons squad. Deploy on the tank side, melta and get cover from the HWTs. A sealed pod would make it even better! Of course, they can always just blow up the pod... But they have to use weapons that would be good against your other vehicles, etc.

For a dread, you position so the weapon is peeking out from the side of the pod or has a clear line through the seats area.

AdeptArtificer wrote:The best answer I can find is on p69 of the SM codex under Transport.

'Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal. Once
passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the
Drop Pod for the remainder of the game.'

Since the hatches are blown you would be able to draw limited TLOS through the vehicle. A player that glues their drop pod door shut would now have to allow for LOS through his closed doors. Based on the wording of the codex can anyone really come up with an alternative?

Doors being blown is pure fluff. There is nothing rulewise that says the doors must be down, it simply says that it is now considered open top.

-cgmckenzie

Immobilized - The vehicle aint moving.....not even the doors. If I was TOing or making the call, that would be my blockheaded reasoning to stifle the asshats. I can't believe people try to bring this up as an advantage.

What does immobilized have to do with doors opening or closing. Have you ever tried telling somebody with an immobilized rhino that they could not embark/disembark because the doors can't open? Sounds like a really poor argument. As far as your "ashat" comment, maybe you should look in the mirror.

cgmckenzie wrote:Doors being blown is pure fluff. -cgmckenzie

I disagree that is fluff since the fluff is clearly above the explanation of the rules on the same page. The hatches are blown is a fact stated by the Transport rules of a Drop Pod.

@spellbound.
Your Dreadclaw made from the drop pod model, should have its doors glued shut. Dreadclaws have 1 exit point on the bottom of the model.

If it was rules and not fluff, it would say 'the doors are opened when it hits the table', not the 'hatches are blown'. That could have a whole host of interpretations, from simply being in a windy area to flying off the hinges like they were kicked in by Shaft.

Rules and fluff are often in the same paragraph or even sentence in this game. The trick is finding the difference between them. If you aren't actually blowing the doors upon its arrival, it is fluff. Otherwise I would be putting small explosive charges inside my DP to follow the rules.

-cgmckenzie

Orock wrote:Someone correct me if im wrong I dont have a book in front of me but I thought that drop pods specifically said they dont block line of sight,

Yeah, you're wrong, I'm afraid. There is no such rule.

AdeptArtificer wrote:I disagree that is fluff since the fluff is clearly above the explanation of the rules on the same page. The hatches are blown is a fact stated by the Transport rules of a Drop Pod.

Count it as rules if you want... unless you can find a rule that says that hatches being blown means that they must be open, it doesn't actually mean anything within the rules. There are no rules mechanics covering 'blown hatches'...

It's a piece of fluff that explains that the troops inside jump out in a hurry. There is no more rules requirement to open the pod doors than there is to open the doors on a rhino or landraider.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that people even think this is an issue. People were quite happily using LOS-blocking drop pods made from PVC pipe for years before the plastic pod was released. I'm still using mine, and the times when it actually blocks LOS in any significant way are few and fare between.

insaniak wrote:

AdeptArtificer wrote:I disagree that is fluff since the fluff is clearly above the explanation of the rules on the same page. The hatches are blown is a fact stated by the Transport rules of a Drop Pod.

Count it as rules if you want... unless you can find a rule that says that hatches being blown means that they must be open, it doesn't actually mean anything within the rules. There are no rules mechanics covering 'blown hatches'...

It's a piece of fluff that explains that the troops inside jump out in a hurry. There is no more rules requirement to open the pod doors than there is to open the doors on a rhino or landraider.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that people even think this is an issue. People were quite happily using LOS-blocking drop pods made from PVC pipe for years before the plastic pod was released. I'm still using mine, and the times when it actually blocks LOS in any significant way are few and fare between.

So now that there is a GW made model that will allow TLOS to be drawn through the vehicle when the doors are open you are okay with people gluing the doors shut? I guess until GW FAQ's this one I will have accept it. Do your PVC drop pods have Storm bolters on the outside that still get to fire? I'm sure I wouldn't want to play against that.

AdeptArtificer wrote:So now that there is a GW made model that will allow TLOS to be drawn through the vehicle when the doors are open you are okay with people gluing the doors shut?

Since there are no rules that tell us to open the doors in the first place, it hampers the owner of the pod as well by blocking LOS from the POD's weapons, and the actual LOS you can draw through the pod is minimal anyway, yes, I have absolutely no problem with people leaving the doors shut.

Do your PVC drop pods have Storm bolters on the outside that still get to fire? I'm sure I wouldn't want to play against that.

At the moment, it doesn't have a weapon on it at all. I just don't shoot with it... although when my younger brother-in-law is using the army, I let him use it as if it has a storm bolter with a 360 degree arc from the lower section of the pod, which is around head height for most models.

It's a RAW vs. RAI argument. I don't have a problem with it really either way as long as the person isn't using them in a way to block LOS that they would be unable to do if the pods were used with doors open.

SM codex, Drop Pods pg 69, "Transport, 2nd paragraph, Once the Drop Pod has landed, THE HATCHES ARE BLOWN and all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal. Once passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the Drop Pod for the remainder of the game."
"Fire points and AccessPoints: once deployed the drop pod is NO LONGER A SEALED ENVIRONMENT and is therefore counted as being open-topped."

If you say the first bit about the hatches is just "fluff" then the passengers dont have to get out of the drop pod when it lands becuse its "fluff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For exp: if my Drop Pod lands and my guys cant get out, then they would be deystroyed, BUT... the part about them having to get out of the Drop Pod is only "fluff", SO... my squad will just sit and wait in the Drop Pod. Hell I'm not going to give my enemy a free kill point.

Pretty interesting argument, I dont really know what the answer is rofl.

I think we can all agree that Hatchs are blown when it lands, but does that mean all the hatches, or could it just mean One hatch?

Rex-Nine wrote:If you say the first bit about the hatches is just "fluff" then the passengers dont have to get out of the drop pod when it lands becuse its "fluff"

That's false logic. A statement can contain a mixture of fluff and rules. In this situation, we have a rules covering disembarking from vehicles, so a statement that models must leave the vehicle fits into the rules of the game.

A statement that a vehicle's doors are 'blown' does not fit into the rules of the game, because there are no rules covering just what doors being 'blown' means. There is no 'blown door' rule anywhere in 5th edition 40K, nor is there a single, clear meaning for it that we can definitively apply to the game. It could mean the doors are completely blown off the pod. It could mean that the doors are opened in a rapid and or explosive fashion. It could mean something else entirely... but since the rules don't dictate a given meaning for it that can be applied in gamne terms, it can only be fluff. The doors are opened on landing... but no rule in the current game requires the model to be placed with the doors open, any more than we are required to open the doors of a rhino or landraider, or actually swing the arm of a model weilding a chainsword in close combat.


Disembarking your models from the pod is a rules issue. Placing the pod with the doors open or closed is a modelling issue. They're not at all the same thing.

Rex-Nine wrote:SM codex, Drop Pods pg 69, "Transport, 2nd paragraph, Once the Drop Pod has landed, THE HATCHES ARE BLOWN and all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal. Once passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the Drop Pod for the remainder of the game."
"Fire points and AccessPoints: once deployed the drop pod is NO LONGER A SEALED ENVIRONMENT and is therefore counted as being open-topped."

If you say the first bit about the hatches is just "fluff" then the passengers dont have to get out of the drop pod when it lands becuse its "fluff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For exp: if my Drop Pod lands and my guys cant get out, then they would be deystroyed, BUT... the part about them having to get out of the Drop Pod is only "fluff", SO... my squad will just sit and wait in the Drop Pod. Hell I'm not going to give my enemy a free kill point.

You emphasizing fluff doesn't make it rule. There is no rule for blown doors or sealed environment, just access points and open topped vehicles. Saying that it is no longer a sealed environment has no bearing on gameplay, it only sets the context of the next clause "is therefore counted as being open-topped."

-cgmckenzie

The Pod blocks LOS for most models, and any little trickle of LOS though it would convey a 4+ cover save to what every you're shooting at to begin with. It isn't beardy or mean to make a pod with sealed doors, it's a practical way to keep the doors from breaking off. It shouldn't be that big of a difference. The Resin FW pod that carry's the Dreadnought is considerably bigger that the plastic GW kit and actually has a big void in the center of it, but the plastic kit has some much stuff inside of it that it's really not worth trying to shoot though it anyway. Just blow the damn thing up and then splatter whatever popped out.

Kurce wrote:More incentive to remove TLOS from the game, imo. TLOS is terrible for table-top games anyway. Too many arguments and gives people huge incentives to asshats.

Wins thread.

So let me get this straight if I built a LR with each side hatch modelled so that it was open, and which would also allow me to draw LOS through the LR this would be legal?(Hey even though unorthdox I can clearly draw LOS through my vehicle) LOL I’m totally gunna do this with my vindicator. .

The way I play is that if I place my pod with the doors shut then it blocks line of sight as you cannot clearly see through plastic just because fluff wise they should drop doesn’t me they have to and it give a more accurate game play instead of guessing and thinking if you would be able to hit the tank or the troops on the other side of the closed drop pod.

one of the Drop Pods in my old Crimison Fist army had 2 Doors break on them. There was no way to fix it without glueing the doors shut. How is this modelling for advantage? Problem with Tlos is that now those doors block sight. And i've used Drop pods enough to know that most of the time they block LOS anyways. SO how is one to play it?

Grey elder wrote:So let me get this straight if I built a LR with each side hatch modelled so that it was open, and which would also allow me to draw LOS through the LR this would be legal?(Hey even though unorthdox I can clearly draw LOS through my vehicle) LOL I’m totally gunna do this with my vindicator. .

You would also need to modify the interior doors to be open in order to draw LOS through it. Legal? Not specifically. There are no rules that cover modifying your models, other than for bases.

I've gone and glued my drop pods - gotta get my Dreads across the board somehow, since Brother Invictus ate all of the cookies we bought from the Sisters, and now all he can do is sort of... waddle - doors shut.

The way we call it, it's clear LOS, but with a 5+ cover save, just to illustrate the fact that their are seats and other doohickies inside the drop pod.

insaniak wrote:

Grey elder wrote:So let me get this straight if I built a LR with each side hatch modelled so that it was open, and which would also allow me to draw LOS through the LR this would be legal?(Hey even though unorthdox I can clearly draw LOS through my vehicle) LOL I’m totally gunna do this with my vindicator. .

You would also need to modify the interior doors to be open in order to draw LOS through it. Legal? Not specifically. There are no rules that cover modifying your models, other than for bases.

Which is exactly what I can do with the half built LR I have. But its just easier to play with it block line of sight(refering to pods).

Actually one of our local guys DID make his own drop-pods, building a resin cast mold from plastic dixie cups. The stormbolter was magnetized to stick to the very top. None of us had problems with it back then.

infinite_array wrote:I've gone and glued my drop pods - gotta get my Dreads across the board somehow, since Brother Invictus ate all of the cookies we bought from the Sisters, and now all he can do is sort of... waddle - doors shut.

The way we call it, it's clear LOS, but with a 5+ cover save, just to illustrate the fact that their are seats and other doohickies inside the drop pod.

You are making far too much sense. Stop immediately...

A simple gentlemen's agreement like this should come to any rational and sporting gamer in seconds, but sadly some peopel want the game to be serious buisness and insist on arguing the smallest point or issue to the death instead...