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DR's statement is backed up by the first sentence on page 88, "Standard missions are designed to be played on a 6'x4' gaming surface.."

This clearly defines what the area of the table is.

Then in the deployment section, you are instructed where "within" this gaming surface you are permitted to deploy your forces.

When you are told to deploy in your half of the table, your forces must be within this area. If not they are deployed illegally and need to be placed where it is legal to do so.

I'll look at it DR. Thanks for the reference. Be back in min or so.

Puma, everything is from the base, based on all the recent FAQ the base isn't ignored for anything except for shooting. Moving from base, Assaulting to the base or contacting the hull if you're tall enough, contesting objectives from the base, disembarking from the base.

Also the deployment zone is defined as how far away from the center (typically) you are required to be. Maybe I need to revisit what I'd do if I was to deploy the flyer at the closest point to the enemy.

This is covered by the INAT FAQ. If both you and your opponent agree to use the INAT FAQ rules (just like you implicitly agree to use the BRB ones) then many, many troubling rules questions are resolved. Print off a copy and keep it with your BRB. If your opponent doesn't agree to the INAT FAQ rules, look up his army list in the INAT FAQ anyway and use every loophole you can to demonstrate why you should use said FAQ in the future, or at least agree to your own set of stitching for the BRB/Codex loopholes. If your opponent wants an incomplete rules set, give it to him, because he obviously doesn't want you to have a complete one.

JBW wrote:
Puma, everything is from the base, based on all the recent FAQ the base isn't ignored for anything except for shooting. Moving from base, Assaulting to the base or contacting the hull if you're tall enough, contesting objectives from the base, disembarking from the base.

Here are all the relevant FAQ entries:

Games Workshop Imperial Guard FAQ wrote:Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for
gaming? Due to its height it seems that it is
impossible for a Valkyrie to contest an objective,
or for troops to disembark/embark normally.
A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the
Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook with the following exception: For the
purposes of contesting objectives and
embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie or
Vendetta, measure to and from the model’s base.
For example, models wishing to embark within a
Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their
movement, all models within the unit are within
2" of the Valkyrie’s base.

Nothing about movement or how the vehicle is deployed there. In fact, quite the opposite - you're told to use the skimmer rules, which say ignore the base for all purposes except assault.

Games Workshop Rulebook FAQ wrote:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Nothing here about movement or how the vehicle is deployed.

So where are you getting that movement/how it is deployed must be measured from the base? The rulebook tells you to ignore the base. The above two FAQ answers are the only caveats to those rules.

So, in short: For the purposes of contesting/controlling, for embarking/disembarking, to see if it is over friendly/enemy models and to see if it is in terrain, and for assault, use the base. For all other inquiries, use the hull. Nothing there about board edge, movement, how it should be deployed or anything else. Thus, you use the skimmer rules.

You may measure from the base for movement because it is easy, but that is not how you're supposed to measure distances from those models. You're supposed to measure distances from their hull. If their hull is off of the board edge, it has moved or deployed illegally.

puma713 wrote:

JBW wrote:
Puma, everything is from the base, based on all the recent FAQ the base isn't ignored for anything except for shooting. Moving from base, Assaulting to the base or contacting the hull if you're tall enough, contesting objectives from the base, disembarking from the base.

Here are all the relevant FAQ entries:

Games Workshop Imperial Guard FAQ wrote:Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for
gaming? Due to its height it seems that it is
impossible for a Valkyrie to contest an objective,
or for troops to disembark/embark normally.
A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the
Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook with the following exception: For the
purposes of contesting objectives and
embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie or
Vendetta, measure to and from the model’s base.
For example, models wishing to embark within a
Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their
movement, all models within the unit are within
2" of the Valkyrie’s base.

Nothing about movement or how the vehicle is deployed there. In fact, quite the opposite - you're told to use the skimmer rules, which say ignore the base for all purposes except assault.

Games Workshop Rulebook FAQ wrote:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Nothing here about movement or how the vehicle is deployed.

So where are you getting that movement/how it is deployed must be measured from the base? The rulebook tells you to ignore the base. The above two FAQ answers are the only caveats to those rules.

So, in short: For the purposes of contesting/controlling, for embarking/disembarking, to see if it is over friendly/enemy models and to see if it is in terrain, and for assault, use the base. For all other inquiries, use the hull. Nothing there about board edge, movement, how it should be deployed or anything else. Thus, you use the skimmer rules.

You may measure from the base for movement because it is easy, but that is not how you're supposed to measure distances from those models. You're supposed to measure distances from their hull. If their hull is off of the board edge, it has moved or deployed illegally.

It doesn't say which type of terrain clear terrain is a terrain type. So, unlesss you're playing a game based in outer space then this says that if the base is totally on the board then the model is OK otherwise it's dead.

Leo, there is a difference between 'terrain' and 'the board'.

All terrain is on the board. To determine if the vendettas are in terrain, use the base because it says to.

'The board' is not terrain, it is the physical play area used to represent the battlefield. If you go past the boundaries on the edges of the battlefield, you are no longer on the board, and thus not in play.

The hull is used to determine if the vehicle is completely on the board, not the base.

-cgmckenzie

[quote=Leo_the_Rat*snip*

Actually 'the board' is classified as 'Clear terrain'.

"Clear terrain can be moved across without any penalty, and generally covers most of the battlefield."

Page 13 under terrain types.

Kitzz, Puma and I both agree to use INAT and reference it often. But with the rash of new FAQs it is my understanding that we are not bringing it up for this discussion.

DR, I didn't read all that, but I did run through the last 4 pages. Sheeesh, some of these guys take this way to emotionally. I think I agree that for purposes of being on the board you use either the entire base or the entire hull. While I am discussing whether the rules actually define it, I think they are not clear, but once again that's the discussion here. Puma was intending to get a specific ruling on the percentage of the base, and while our other conversation led to this, our % is specifically a percentage of the hull that includes the entirety of the base. (At least that is what I intend to discuss). One more time... I think that the complete base of the Flyer type model meets the 'completely' and 'entire' mentions in the FAQs.

MEASURING DISTANCES
A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model's hull or body instead.

VEHICLES & MEASURING DISTANCES
As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).

SKIMMERS:MEASURING DISTANCES
Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent 'flying bases' under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull, with the exceptions of the vehicle's weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.

All of these represent the hull being a point to measure from. Well we all know that the Flyer models also use their bases a lot also. If the rules are permissive initially and

In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after declaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc).

So where in the rules does it give me permission to measure from the hull to the back of the table edge. It only requires that I measure away from the imaginary line deployment line created from measuring from the center (typically) of the table.

So I ask, where does it give me permission to measure from the back of the Flyer's hull to the back table edge, or reserve table edge to determine some distance?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since it isn't allowed or even defined, I use all the FAQs to determine that at least all of the Flyer's base must be on the table.

Games Workshop Rulebook FAQ wrote:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

The above covers if the skimmer is considered to be in terrain.

If the skimmers base in completely within the clear terrain of the table, the model is considered in that terrain feature.

If the hull was over other models, Impassible terrain, difficult/dangerous terrain, is not counted as being in that terrain feature according to the FaQ.

So it seems that only the base needs to be in clear terrain to be in/on the gaming surface, and anything that overhangs other terrain or the edge is not counted.

obviously I could run away with that interpretation of the FAQ, but I also believe the FAQ to be referring to difficult/dangerous. So no need to entertain that thought. But it does help define what is important regarding the area of the table surface the FLyer occupies.

DeathReaper wrote:Actually 'the board' is classified as 'Clear terrain'.

"Clear terrain can be moved across without any penalty, and generally covers most of the battlefield."

Page 13 under terrain types.

Agreed. As I said above, I don't believe that the FAQ is referring to the base interacting with the clear board, but the base interacting with actual "terrain", as those were the questions that people had in regard to flyers.

JBW wrote:

Eldanar wrote:Part of the problem is that it is intrinsically unfair to have part of a model hanging off of a table, because this effectively gives that model "cover" from blast weapons that scatter to the portion that is off the table, because the blast is then off the table. It also allows the model to lengthen ranges from weapons being shot at it, again, by having an inch or two of the model hanging off of the table, which otherwise would push them closer to the shooter.

The skimmer thing is a whole different can of worms. I play it has to be all on. I've seen other people who think otherwise. The problem then becomes what is the foot print of the model, for assaulting and measuring ranges to it?

Lets say I have a side shot at a vendetta that is part on and part off of the table, at a slight angle. Lets say I am in range to shoot at the side hull near the tail, but which is off the table, but I am barely out of range for the portion of the vehicle on the table. It would be very inequitable to say my shot fails because it goes off table, and yet the vehicle is not destroyed even though it is hanging partly off the table.

These types of issues are prevented simply by taking an all-on approach for models.

Eldanar, I see the concern, and please know that I'm not intentionally attempting to get a All benefits/No drawbacks debate going here, but I do offer this:
*Removed*

**Ok, so the MRB says the vehicle is hit and doesn't mention a table edge miss. Here's the reference

If a vehicle is even partially under a template weapon, it is hit on the Armour value the firer is facing.

When firing a blast weapon against a vehicle, place the marker with the hole over any part of the vehicle's hull and then roll for scatter as normal. In the case of multiple blasts, place the hole in the center of the first marker on the vehicle's hull. If the markers scatter so that they're not over the vehicle at all, then obviously the vehicle is not affected. If a marker ends over the vehicle, it makes a big difference if the hole in the center of the marker is over the vehicle or not:

• The center of the blast marker ends over the vehicle's hull. In this case the shell or missile has hit the vehicle and exploded on it. The armour penetration roll is resolved against the Armour value facing the firer, regardless of the position of the marker, using the full Strength of the weapon. Hits from barrage weapons, however, always hit the vehicle's side armour (representing its top armour).

• The center of the blast marker ends outside the vehicle, but part of the marker covers its hull. In this case the shell or missile has missed the vehicle, and only some shrapnel clanks against the vehicle's armour. The armour penetration roll is resolved against the Armour Value facing the center of the marker, regardless of the position of the firer, and the weapon 's Strength is halved (round down).

The problem is that you are looking only at the vehicle rules. Under the rules for shooting, IIRC, if a blast marker scatters off table, it misses. If half of a vehicle is hanging off of a table, and the blast scatters over that part of the vehicle, is this then a hit or a miss?

There is an intrinsic unfairness to placing half of a model off table in order to get some movement advantage or some sort of cover or range advantage. Large models are that size for a reason. Their size has both benefits and negatives, and they should be played that way. Most people care less if part of a wing or tail slightly hangs over the table edge, but it can be played on a corner where half or more of one of the large skimmers is off the table.

Actually, I was looking at both. If you want to target a vehicle then abide by the rules for shooting at vehicles. No where does it say to make these modifications as an addition to the previous rules for blast markers. I really don't intend to debate this point although your fairness concern is valid. It might not end up being fair, but it wouldn't be the first thing that was seemingly unfair in 40k land.

*I'm not suggesting it's one or the other, but if you are worried about not hitting the vehicle, I say you would hit it.

Think of it this way.

If i went by your interpretation (assuming that i'd actually play anyone who wanted to hang their models off the board edge as you suggest ) you would be forced to allow my Monoliths to have only a guntip hanging onto the board, from which to fwackoom you, while presenting you with jack to shoot back at, and a lovely 4+ cover save

Your models have to be entirely on the board. Youa re cheating if they are not. Best of luck trying to find a game with someone if you insist on it.

If you deploy outside of your permitted zone, you have not deployed correctly.

You must deploy IN your half (for DOW). If I can measure to your vehicle and find it outside of that area you have broken a rule.

If your vehicle hull is not on the table then I can measure to it as being outside of the area. You have broken a rule.

puma713 wrote:...I don't believe that the FAQ is referring to the base interacting with the clear board, but the base interacting with actual "terrain", as those were the questions that people had in regard to flyers.

I am inclined to agree with that Puma, the FaQ cleared it up for difficult terrain and flyers with wings that stop above said terrain.

However initially it seems they allow you to overhang the board edge, from the FaQ, but I am in agreement with you and Nos that this is not allowed due to needing to be IN your deployment zone at the start of the game. and a wing (or other part of the hull) that is not in the deployment zone at the start of the game is against the rules.

And since you can not move off the table you can, at no point, stop the vehicles movement when the hull is over the board edge.

Ascalam wrote:Think of it this way.

If i went by your interpretation (assuming that i'd actually play anyone who wanted to hang their models off the board edge as you suggest ) you would be forced to allow my Monoliths to have only a guntip hanging onto the board, from which to fwackoom you, while presenting you with jack to shoot back at, and a lovely 4+ cover save

Your models have to be entirely on the board. Youa re cheating if they are not. Best of luck trying to find a game with someone if you insist on it.

Well, you are misunderstanding this topic. Your base, the thing that connects you to the surface of the table and deployment zone is what is required to be in your deployment zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I understand, if just the back tail of the Flyer is out side the 6'x4' battlefield then a mishap occurs, or it's destroyed in other cases?

Since you are willfully misunderstanding the rules, you're hardly one to throw stones.

Monoliths have no base. Just like landraiders don't

Puma 713: 'All these things are great, but they're all inferences. What tells you specifically that I cannot take a Land Raider and deploy it with its back end sitting over the board edge?'

The thread has not been specified to apply to just skimmers, or the base/whole vehicle issue.

In the case of your flier having anything sticking out over the board edge it is destroyed, as it did not come completely onto the board. Distances are measured from the hull, barring a couple of exceptions. If your vehicle does not completely clear the board edge it is destroyed. This distance would be measured from the hull, as none of the exceptions specifically allow otherwise.


The deployment rules say that when deploying reserves the movement is taken with the move measured from the edge of the battlefield (pg 94 mrb). This will be measured from the hull, as that is what the rules say. The FAQ clarifies that if it fails to move completely onto the board it is destroyed. Agaiin, this is measured from the hull per the MRB.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

As the edge of the board has been declared to be the edge of the world, anything hanging off it would not be 'completely on the board'.
Can you quote me a source saying that you may elect to take all measurements from the base? If so, please do!



Pg 71 MRB

'Measuring distances:

unlike other vehicles skimmers have a transparent 'flying base' under their hull. As normal for vehicles distances are measured to and from the vehicle's hull, with the exceptions of the vehicles weapons, access points and fire points, which work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, base or both'

The FAQ clarifies that the whole skimmer counts as being Hull. Distances are measured from the vehicle not from the base, barring someone attempting to assault you or whether your skimmer is on top of enemy/friendly models. It is also used to define whether your skimmer has landed itself in terrain, per the FAQ. It gives no permission to define whether or not the vehicle is in your deployment zone by base alone, as measurements are still taken from the hull for all other purposes, and deployment distance is not specifically allowed to be from the flying base by the FAQ.


Also possibly relevant, possibly not..:

Q: Can a unit deploy in impassable terrain? (p92)
A: Not unless it is specifically allowed to move through
impassable terrain.

Anything over the side of the board edge could be considered impassable, since you aren't allowed to deploy off the board.


'Your base, the thing that connects you to the surface of the table and deployment zone is what is required to be in your deployment zone.'

Care to find me a quote that says that? The rule is that all measurements not given exceptions are from the vehicle's hull.

Ascalam wrote:Puma 713: 'All these things are great, but they're all inferences. What tells you specifically that I cannot take a Land Raider and deploy it with its back end sitting over the board edge?'

Page 92 and the three deployment types say you can only deploy IN your deployment zone.

This area you need to be in is clearly defined for the three different deployment types.

If you are outside of this area you are not in the deployment zone.

This is 'What tells you specifically that I cannot take a Land Raider and deploy it with its back end sitting over the board edge'

no overhanging the board edge on deployment, to do so is to not be IN the deployment zone.

Ascalam wrote:Since you are willfully misunderstanding the rules, you're hardly one to throw stones.

Wow, here we go I guess. Who's throwing stones? What are you referring to?

Ascalam wrote:Monoliths have no base. Just like landraiders don't

They don't come with a flying base?

Ascalam wrote:The deployment rules say that when deploying reserves the movement is taken with the move measured from the edge of the battlefield (pg 94 mrb). This will be measured from the hull, as that is what the rules say. The FAQ clarifies that if it fails to move completely onto the board it is destroyed. Agaiin, this is measured from the hull per the MRB.

I think you should also state when you measure from the hull. This is what it says in the MRB regarding what to measure when coming on from reserves.

Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal.

I didn't see hull mentioned in there at all. Look, if I missed it somewhere then point it out. You're not really contributing anything that hasn't already been said, and my perception of what you are typing is just all around negative. But attempting to read tone and sarcasm via text can easily be misinterpreted.

Ascalam wrote:As the edge of the board has been declared to be the edge of the world, anything hanging off it would not be 'completely on the board'.
Can you quote me a source saying that you may elect to take all measurements from the base? If so, please do!

Where did I say this? If I did, that's not what I intended.

I'll quote you the MRB if needed but you are also likely versed in the MRB. If I cannot measure unless told to do so, then where does it tell me that I have to measure from the hull to any table edge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Puma 713: 'All these things are great, but they're all inferences. What tells you specifically that I cannot take a Land Raider and deploy it with its back end sitting over the board edge?'

Page 92 and the three deployment types say you can only deploy IN your deployment zone.
This area you need to be in is clearly defined for the three different deployment types.
If you are outside of this area you are not in the deployment zone.
This is 'What tells you specifically that I cannot take a Land Raider and deploy it with its back end sitting over the board edge'
no overhanging the board edge on deployment, to do so is to not be IN the deployment zone.

I agree with you up to you mention what you interpret. I haven't seen where it defines how much 'completely' is for anything. I think a model with a base is measured from the base when it calls to measure something. I think a model without a base uses the hull when it calls to measure something. The measurement for deployment is to, like you mentioned and others, to define the most forward position you army can be at the beginning of the game (barring any special rules). I don't think you violate the deployment frontline nor do I think a model is off the table if it's base or hull (if it has no base) is completely on (and in) the table.

I'm totally open for change in this mind set, but the opposition right now isn't providing convincing statements IMO. I however appreciate some of you keeping this constructive.

1/. you claimed that i was not understanding the topic. You aren't understanding the rules..

2/. No, they don't. They are listed as doing so on the site, but there is no flying base provided. I've bought 10 over the years, and none have ever has flying bases. I've tried mounting them on a flying base, but they snap right off...

3/. I did state when to measure from the hull:

Pg 71 MRB

'Measuring distances:

unlike other vehicles skimmers have a transparent 'flying base' under their hull. As normal for vehicles distances are measured to and from the vehicle's hull, with the exceptions of the vehicles weapons, access points and fire points, which work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, base or both'

Distances are measured from the vehicle's hull. Movement measurements are still measurements. The only times the base is relevant are when checking to see if you are over terrain/other models (which count as terrain) or when being assaulted.

4/. You measure from the vehicle (the hull- same thing except in a few cases as listed by exceptions) for movement. If there is still hull hanging off the edge of the board then that vehicle has not moved itself completely beyond the edge of the board. When moving onto the board the movement is measured from the hull of the vehicle(specifically the part considered to be at the board edge before the movement).

I apologise if i seem negative, but a screaming migraine will do that to you. I'm just trying to understand the justification for a vehicle being only partly on the board or deployment area within the rules?

Completely = completely. There is no partially completely. In essence it means that every part of the vehicle must be on the battlefield, as opposed to being off the edge of the world.

If the vehicle is completely on the table (including it's hull) it is fine. if it's base is and the rest isn't, it isn't, as the model is not completely on the table, since part of it is outside the world of the game (the table edge).


I'm open to being converted, but i'm just not seeing the rules supporting the argument that you count as completely on the battlefield if only your base is.

The rules for moving onto the table from reserve say that it is treated exactly as if they were moving onto the table from the board's edge.

Movement rules prohibit you from ending your move off the board.

Moving during reserve follows the same rules for moving, it simply starts off the board, so you cannot have hull hanging over the edge.

-cgmckenzie

". I think a model with a base is measured from the base when it calls to measure something."

You're wrong in your thinking, then. Thaats the issue.

You ignore the base on skimmers, exactly like it tells you in the rules for skimmers, right at the start of the skimmer section. So if I can measure to your hull and find it is outside of your area, ANYWHERE outside your deployment zone, then you have broken a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:". I think a model with a base is measured from the base when it calls to measure something."

You're wrong in your thinking, then. Thaats the issue.

You ignore the base on skimmers, exactly like it tells you in the rules for skimmers, right at the start of the skimmer section. So if I can measure to your hull and find it is outside of your area, ANYWHERE outside your deployment zone, then you have broken a rule.

I'm not making myself clear apparently or I'm miss typing altogether.

Ok, your right about using the hull to measure skimmers when you shoot at it and when you move. Obviously the referenced post is not what I intend, cause your right, you measure from the hull and it's super clear. I never meant to argue that. What I'm saying is that no where does it tell you to measure how far from any table edge to the hull. And if you were to measure you would be doing something illegal, right?

I agree that you start your measurement from the board edge, and move your model on based on it's movement limitations. what defines when the model is completely on the table? and where does it say that? I encourage you not to read any sarcasm, because there is non intended. The purpose of this discussion that Puma brought up is to essentially discuss that 'completely' and 'entirely' is not defined specifically in the Ref Documents. The solution in my mind, and I guess what I'm looking for is a definitive rule that tells me the hull specifically is what is required. I haven't seen it yet. Or damn it, I'm just tunnel visioned right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:The rules for moving onto the table from reserve say that it is treated exactly as if they were moving onto the table from the board's edge.
Movement rules prohibit you from ending your move off the board.
Moving during reserve follows the same rules for moving, it simply starts off the board, so you cannot have hull hanging over the edge.
-cgmckenzie

Man, I agree with you until you bring in the hull. I don't think you should be allowed to have part of the base, or (for non based models) part of the hull off the board, but there's no clear example of that. It does say however that it must be completely on, and that's where I say that the skimmers would be completely on if the base is on, as that's it's reference point to the gaming surface. There isn't a quote for that because it's interpretation obviously because completely is not defined via something I can measure or a reference to an example in the MRB. It's a flyer, now the pilot might be sweating the fact their on the edge of the world but it doesn't mean their not skilled enough to hover there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't require the MRB to define every word they use in the documents they issue, but in my mind, completely for flyers means the base. The only time the hull is placed on the board is a potential result of a damage roll. If the hull is defined by GW to be the place you measure from and too for movement and shooting, and you cannot measure unless told to do so, then what is the measurement and where does it say i can?

JBW - you are required to measure to the model in order to determine you are inside your deployment zone. This is an allowed measurement, in fact is a REQUIRED measurement.

So yes, if your hull is deployed off the table, I will measure and find you are deployng illegally

Ascalam wrote:1/. you claimed that i was not understanding the topic. You aren't understanding the rules..

that could be true too.

Ascalam wrote:2/. No, they don't. They are listed as doing so on the site, but there is no flying base provided. I've bought 10 over the years, and none have ever has flying bases. I've tried mounting them on a flying base, but they snap right off...

Huh, I thought they came with them. I swear some local guys have theirs on bases. I'll have to look into that. But for what it's worth I would say your monolith (no base) would be required to be completely on the table from where it touches the table.

Ascalam wrote:I apologise if i seem negative, but a screaming migraine will do that to you. I'm just trying to understand the justification for a vehicle being only partly on the board or deployment area within the rules?

Fair enough. I'm trying to explain it, I swear.

Ascalam wrote:Completely = completely. There is no partially completely. In essence it means that every part of the vehicle must be on the battlefield, as opposed to being off the edge of the world.

I agree with your equivalency. But then you define completeness from your understanding. And I'm looking for a reference to that in the documents.

Ascalam wrote:I'm open to being converted, but i'm just not seeing the rules supporting the argument that you count as completely on the battlefield if only your base is.

It could end in an agreement to disagree, but I'm not willing to make a big deal about it on the table, I'd likely ask to 4+ it, call a judge, or adjust to keep my opponent having fun and not feeling cheated.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:JBW - you are required to measure to the model in order to determine you are inside your deployment zone. This is an allowed measurement, in fact is a REQUIRED measurement.
So yes, if your hull is deployed off the table, I will measure and find you are deployng illegally

Ok, I can work with this. But my understanding is that you are only to measure the deployment zone, hence for pitched battle, the 12" from the center. If you measure anything else aren't you doing something illegal?

No. The deployment zone is ON the table, no more than 12" from the end. The edge of the table *also* defines the edge of your deployment zone.

You cannot end movement off the table. You cannot move off the table except when fleeing. If you come on the table and leave half of your LR, valk, or anything hanging over the edge, you have ended movement off the table.

You cannot say that the hull doesn't count if it has a base. The skimmer rules say that the hull is used for all measurements with some specific exceptions, movement not being one. When the rules or FAQ say that a unit that fails to come completely onto the board from reserves is destroyed, that counts for vehicles and infantry alike. Any hull hanging over the edge will destroy the vehicle just as any base hanging over the edge will destroy the unit that base is part of.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:You cannot end movement off the table. You cannot move off the table except when fleeing. If you come on the table and leave half of your LR, valk, or anything hanging over the edge, you have ended movement off the table.
You cannot say that the hull doesn't count if it has a base. The skimmer rules say that the hull is used for all measurements with some specific exceptions, movement not being one. When the rules or FAQ say that a unit that fails to come completely onto the board from reserves is destroyed, that counts for vehicles and infantry alike. Any hull hanging over the edge will destroy the vehicle just as any base hanging over the edge will destroy the unit that base is part of.
-cgmckenzie

Ah, ok. I see now (sorry if it took a minute) why the other thread (DR mentioned) was debating on/off. Well, I don't intend to restart that. But semantically if you can let go of the model and it stays on the table, then it would be on the table, other wise it would fall and then be off the table. The wobbly model rules are only mentioned for terrain, and I'm not interested in discussing the clear terrain argument.

Now GW comes back (or maybe they did this at the same time) and says, well it must be 'completely' on the table. Well how do I determine if it is 'completely' on the table? Do I measure, and if I do, I would use the hull, but where does it tell me to measure? and from where?

Nos, the measuring for deployment takes place from the center of the board (or a line therein), not the back edge. But even if it did, it still wouldn't tell me the answer. The deployment boundaries are for measuring the distance between the two forces, which I agree that you would use the hull to determine that I was 12" (for example) from the center line of the table. Where does it say how far the hull needs to be from the back edge? I even agree that you would use the back edge to determine it if it told me to measure that, or check that from the model's hulls. I just can't see it anywhere.