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Rimmy wrote:the RAW state that the entire hull or base of a bodel (which covers everything) must be completely on the table at the time of deployment or movement. any part of the model moved, deployed or otherwise, that is off the board, is considered out of the game as it has left the active battle.

its simple. the percentage is 100% on is on, anything LESS than 100%, is off the table and therefore removed from play.

because a slkimmer is a based model, its base must be fully on the board to be playable.

any vehicle (or otherwise) model that does not have a base (which includes the monolith) its hull must be on the table.

Uh, the monolith does have a base though and *is* a skimmer. The base is built into the model, the four little nubs sticking out of the bottom. If memory serves, they're the correct diameter and height as if it was on a standard skimmer base.

JBW wrote:But semantically if you can let go of the model and it stays on the table, then it would be on the table, other wise it would fall and then be off the table. The wobbly model rules are only mentioned for terrain, and I'm not interested in discussing the clear terrain argument.

If you are told to park in a parking space and you have 2 wheels in across the paint into the next did you follow the instructions? No. To be on the table you must be on the table, you cannot be partially on the table.

Melchiour wrote:

JBW wrote:But semantically if you can let go of the model and it stays on the table, then it would be on the table, other wise it would fall and then be off the table. The wobbly model rules are only mentioned for terrain, and I'm not interested in discussing the clear terrain argument.

If you are told to park in a parking space and you have 2 wheels in across the paint into the next did you follow the instructions? No. To be on the table you must be on the table, you cannot be partially on the table.

FYI: If you park next to a HANDICAP spot and your wheels touch the line of that spot, you can get a ticket for parking in a handicap spot.

JBW - so, when they tell you the board is a 6x4 playing area, and you must deploy ON the board, that means if you are not in the 6x4 area you have definitely deployed illegally.

Melchiour wrote:

JBW wrote:But semantically if you can let go of the model and it stays on the table, then it would be on the table, other wise it would fall and then be off the table. The wobbly model rules are only mentioned for terrain, and I'm not interested in discussing the clear terrain argument.

If you are told to park in a parking space and you have 2 wheels in across the paint into the next did you follow the instructions? No. To be on the table you must be on the table, you cannot be partially on the table.

But my parking job is fine, all my wheels are in the parking space. What I understand everyone is arguing is that my doors are open, and because they are, I'm somehow not parking in (or on) the parking space. While I understand the doors might be a poor example of the wings of a Flyer, that's really the only example that would apply to the Flyer.

You are referring to a vehicle and specifically mentioning it's relationship to the surface. That's really what I've been trying to get at, but everyone is debating the hull. The Flyer never lands throughout the game, unless it's Imm or Wrecked. So if my wheels/base is in/on the table completely then I am legally parked.

I'm trying to think of other example similar to that but still has wheels. If a Rig is carrying a helicopter and its blades are extended out over the Rig, and it goes to the weigh station. Are they going to say the Rig can't fit on the scales because of the copter?

Kel, I did not know that, good food for thought. I wonder if that's nationally.

Nos, I'm gonna have to disagree, 'on' and 'in' are not equivalent.

JBW wrote:
. While I understand the doors might be a poor example of the wings of a Flyer, that's really the only example that would apply to the Flyer.

You are told to park your plane in hanger B, your wings and tail are hanging outside hangar B. Did you follow instructions?

If you didn't snicker after you posted this, wondering 'What's this guy going to say to this?', you should have. Cause I got nothing. I laughed and thought, that makes sense, why didn't I think of that.

Now just show me where there's a wall around the table edge and I'm sold!

**I get that you were clarifying 'in', and I must deploy in the deployment zone. But the hanger and deployment zone have different physical characteristics. This is helping though. I'm gonna look around in the MRB with this in mind.

Also if your looking for more go to the mission types. They say things such as "Deploy in your half of the table." If your off the board even slightly you are not within your half. Also walls are not needed to define an area.

Yeah, I know, I've referenced the deployment instructions. I'll do it again so we can have it here.

The player that goes first then chooses one of the long table edges to be his own table edge. He then deploys his force in his half of the table, with all models more than 12" away from the table's middle line (this is his 'deployment zone'). His opponent then deploys in the opposite half and more than 12” from the table’s middle line.

That's likely what I'll ask my opponent. "Are we playing that the edge of the table as a surface edge, or a wall when determining what is in the battlefield?".

Let me ask a similar question from a different POV.
So, you see the Flyer's hull as being 2D when it involves the table edge? But not for occupying the same space as other models on the surface (depending on height), nor for determining when it is in terrain...

I grind my teeth at mentions of 2D.

It isn't a matter of 2 dimensional space. The battlefield ends at the edge of the board, ANYTHING past that edge, fully or partially, is destroyed. If you have hull hanging over the edge, the vehicle is destroyed. That is true for skimmers just as much as it is for tanks.

The rules determine what models occupy space in one of two ways:

1)Models with a base occupy the area of their base. If they have arms or swords hanging over the edge, that is fine because they do not actually occupy that space. The only vehicles that occupy their base are walkers.

2)Vehicles occupy the space defined by their hull. Things that are not hull include banners, guns, dozer blades, antennas, and other decorative items. Those on the flying stem measure to the oval base ONLY to disembark, contest objectives, and be in difficult/dangerous terrain. All other measurements go to the hull.

-cgmckenzie

I think you have to edit your last post, otherwise models can move onto and through the flying bases/stems. And the FAQ determines that the Base is what is used to determine whether it is over friendly models. It should also be used to determine if it is over the edge.

To be honest I don't see how it's too much different from deploying too far forward. Dark Eldar can't just nudge the bases of their raiders and ravagers up to the front line with half of the suspended vehicle hanging over... Likewise, one can't deploy skimmers with any part hanging over the backline, either. Just a thought.

Nu11nV01D wrote:To be honest I don't see how it's too much different from deploying too far forward. Dark Eldar can't just nudge the bases of their raiders and ravagers up to the front line with half of the suspended vehicle hanging over... Likewise, one can't deploy skimmers with any part hanging over the backline, either. Just a thought.

I agree with the first part of your comment. I know these long discussions can get difficult to read, but I've mentioned this previously. My view point is that the rules are permissive and you cannot measure unless you are instructed to do so. The front line deployment requires that your vehicle hull be more than 12" away from the center line of the table (assuming pitched battle). That's all you are allowed to measure. There's nothing telling you to measure to make sure that your vehicle's hulls are a certain distance from the other table edges.

JBW wrote:

Nu11nV01D wrote:To be honest I don't see how it's too much different from deploying too far forward. Dark Eldar can't just nudge the bases of their raiders and ravagers up to the front line with half of the suspended vehicle hanging over... Likewise, one can't deploy skimmers with any part hanging over the backline, either. Just a thought.

I agree with the first part of your comment. I know these long discussions can get difficult to read, but I've mentioned this previously. My view point is that the rules are permissive and you cannot measure unless you are instructed to do so. The front line deployment requires that your vehicle hull be more than 12" away from the center line of the table (assuming pitched battle). That's all you are allowed to measure. There's nothing telling you to measure to make sure that your vehicle's hulls are a certain distance from the other table edges.

Well then, obviously, the discussion falls to the definition of what's on and off the board edge. I could be wrong, but you can't hang the long end of a raider off the side of the table, can you? If not, then you can't have any part of your deployed skimmers off the table, either, since it's all considered board edge, isn't it?

Nu11nV01D wrote:Well then, obviously, the discussion falls to the definition of what's on and off the board edge. I could be wrong, but you can't hang the long end of a raider off the side of the table, can you? If not, then you can't have any part of your deployed skimmers off the table, either, since it's all considered board edge, isn't it?

Right, but the model is on the board if it's there when I let go, it's off the board when it's on the floor or in reserve. GW released a FAQ that says a model may not move off the board. They also released FAQ that says you must move onto the board 'completely' (which I say is undefined). I think that might catch some us up. I might have to edit it..

We were discussing 'in' the deployment zone, but that goes back to whether the board edge is an edge or has height.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Folks there's a couple other things that might end in my clarity/sanity that haven't been discussed.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves perform a tank shock?
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move along with its direction and move the tank onto the board that many inches, measuring from the board edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count as destroyed and are removed from play.

This goes back to what is the entire vehicle. Blah.

Deep strike mishaps
Teleporting or dropping onto a crowded battlefield may prove extremely dangerous, as one may arrive miles away from the intended objective or even inside solid rock! If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the deep strike Mishap table and apply the results.

Can a flyer's base be within the 1", or do you guys measure from the hull?

If any model from a unit that is falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game and counts as destroyed, as it scatters and deserts the battle.

This one is by far the closest to determining that if you come in contact with the board edge then the unit is destroyed. So while it helps with those folks that want to put their LR over the edge, I still see that it doesn't really effect flyers unless you are talking about the base.

Melchior, this last one might actually prove that the table edge is a 'wall' for example. Still chewing on that.

JBW wrote:... 'completely' (which I say is undefined).

You can not be serious that you do not understand what completely means...

Lets make this as easy as possible. 40K is a permissive ruleset. Where in this permissive rule set does it state explicitly that models without bases or skimmers can overhang the board edge?

Gosh, All I can say is that it doesn't say that any where specifically in the rules. I will leave you with this though.

I see folks throwing out the statement '40k is a permissive ruleset' a lot. Which made me look up the word.

From Google's dictionary:
per·mis·sive

adjective /pərˈmisiv/ 

1. Allowing or characterized by great or excessive freedom of behavior
* - I was not a permissive parent
* - the permissive society of the 60s and 70s

2. Allowed but not obligatory; optional
* - the Hague Convention was permissive, not mandatory

3. Allowing a biological or biochemical process to occur
* - the mutants grow well at the permissive temperature

4. Allowing the infection and replication of viruses

So saying it's a permissive ruleset seems to mean the exact opposite of what people intend it to mean.

And curiously enough, has GW ever said it's a permissive ruleset? Or is that something the internet-generals have invented?

Instead it says that I must deploy in my deployment zone so many inches from some center point determined by the deployment being played. If I have done so, in which my models are in said deployment zone then I have met the 'permissive' rule set. You likely didn't mean it but it's a bit insulting to come on and think you can make a simple statement that everyone else has been discussing diligently. I could be wrong but I think we've covered the permissive mention in previous posts. I am merely saying that if you actually follow the permissive mind set you should end up discussing what completely means.

JBW wrote:Gosh, All I can say is that it doesn't say that any where specifically in the rules. I will leave you with this though.

I see folks throwing out the statement '40k is a permissive ruleset' a lot. Which made me look up the word.

From Google's dictionary:
per·mis·sive

adjective /pərˈmisiv/ 

1. Allowing or characterized by great or excessive freedom of behavior
* - I was not a permissive parent
* - the permissive society of the 60s and 70s

2. Allowed but not obligatory; optional
* - the Hague Convention was permissive, not mandatory

3. Allowing a biological or biochemical process to occur
* - the mutants grow well at the permissive temperature

4. Allowing the infection and replication of viruses

So saying it's a permissive ruleset seems to mean the exact opposite of what people intend it to mean.

And curiously enough, has GW ever said it's a permissive ruleset? Or is that something the internet-generals have invented?

Instead it says that I must deploy in my deployment zone so many inches from some center point determined by the deployment being played. If I have done so, in which my models are in said deployment zone then I have met the 'permissive' rule set. You likely didn't mean it but it's a bit insulting to come on and think you can make a simple statement that everyone else has been discussing diligently. I could be wrong but I think we've covered the permissive mention in previous posts. I am merely saying that if you actually follow the permissive mind set you should end up discussing what completely means.

Tenets of You Make Da Call wrote:6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

I'll leave ya with this.

Good to know, and yes that wasn't fair or necessary. I do encourage both of you to engage this topic, as it should be addressed. Guess if all else I'll wait for the new INAT or the next GW FAQs or better yet, the new edition.

This question of the FAQ seems to suggest that the edge of the board is a wall. And therefore support the idea that you can not put a hull/base on the very edge of the table.

Q: What happens if, as a part of completing its move,
after ramming inflicts a Destroyed – Explodes! result, a
vehicle comes into contact with impassable terrain, the
board edge or a friendly unit? (p69)
A: The vehicle will end its move once it has come into
contact with any of the above.

Yep and the fleeing MRB mentioned above says 'comes in contact with the board edge too', but what comes in contact? the base for infantry obviously, and honestly only the base if it has one can come in contact with a board edge.

So the stopping at the board edge once it comes in contact. when does the hull of a Flyer type come in contact with the board edge? These crazy models and their piecemeal rules are changing the way I think of the game.

*Was it more specific in previous editions?

I think that you're parsing the rules too finely. "Completely" means all of... "Contact" means touching. It's not GW's responsibility to define even common terms, just game terms. A model is "completely" on the table when all of it's hull (or base as appropriate to the figure) is on the table. A model it in "contact" with the table edge, again when any part of it's hull or base comes to the edge of the table.

There is nowhere in this permissive ruleset that says you are allowed to have any part of the vehicle or base hanging over the edge. In fact, every instance in which the edge is mentioned, it says you can't or must stop upon reaching it.

And a 'complete' vehicle is the hull. So wings, chassis, wheels, engines, cockpit, etc. If any of that is past the edge of the board, your vehicle is off the board and destroyed. For walkers, infantry, and bikes, the base is what counts; if the base is past the edge, the unit is destroyed.

-cgmckenzie

Leo, I agree 'contact' means touching and 'completely' means all of. But where we disagree is that, I think you want to use the hull for something else other than to measure a distance. And I just don't see where the permissive rule set says you can do that. It actually says you cannot measure unless the rules say so.

Guys Folks, I agree that it doesn't say anywhere that you can have part of your model hanging over the edge. It doesn't, I've looked extensively. But when I read 'completely on', I read that the base must be on, as it's used for everything except moving, and being shot at. So the FAQ says the unit must move completely on, and I say that means the base. Some argue that it means a partial base. But I disagree and think that is ridiculous.

Another example is that the Skimmer can be assaulted if a model comes in contact with its base or hull. For regular skimmers it is not that uncommon for this to occur. But surely you wouldn't say a Grot is in contact with any part of the Flyer's hull just because above the grot is the hull and it would have made contact if the hull were lower. Why then, would you use the 'contact' the board edge to mean something different?

Movement is not measured to a skimmer's base, it is measured to the hull. The base is effectively ignored except when assaulting. For those on flying bases, it is also used to determine if terrain tests are needed, for contesting, and for disembarking/embarking.

'Completely on' means just that, the complete model is on the board. Not just the base, not just the wings, but the whole model(decorative elements don't count).

For assaulting, you must come in contact with either the base or the hull. If you can't reach the base, then you must reach the hull or no assault is made.

Being on or off the board isn't a 'contact' thing, it is a matter of being past the line of the edge of the play surface. I have said it before:

If hull/base is past the edge of the board, the unit is destroyed.

There is nowhere in the rules that even suggest you are allowed to have a model past that line while it is in play(being in reserves doesn't count), so why do you keep arguing that you can?

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Movement is not measured to a skimmer's base, it is measured to the hull. The base is effectively ignored except when assaulting. For those on flying bases, it is also used to determine if terrain tests are needed, for contesting, and for disembarking/embarking.

'Completely on' means just that, the complete model is on the board. Not just the base, not just the wings, but the whole model(decorative elements don't count).

For assaulting, you must come in contact with either the base or the hull. If you can't reach the base, then you must reach the hull or no assault is made.

Being on or off the board isn't a 'contact' thing, it is a matter of being past the line of the edge of the play surface. I have said it before:

If hull/base is past the edge of the board, the unit is destroyed.

There is nowhere in the rules that even suggest you are allowed to have a model past that line while it is in play(being in reserves doesn't count), so why do you keep arguing that you can?

-cgmckenzie

your giving your interpretation of what you think is completely on. And that is what I'm wanting to discuss essentially from the beginning.
But you are mentioning interpretations, because the only time it defines the edge or how you should treat it is in a 'makes contact' frame of mind. You say 'past the line', but that's not what the rules say. I say 'completely on' is based on the base for anything that has one because the only way it will make contact to have a game effect that is covered in the rules is to reference it's base. Previously I asked where does it tell me to measure the hull anywhere from the table edge other than moving on the table. And if I am on the table then my model is considered on if I let go and it stays there. Completely comes in with the FAQ, and then we go back to what is completely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's a little bit of an issue of consistency, and a bit of when can I measure, and what does 'contact' mean and where else can we reference the MRB to understand what GW intends to mean.

Again, there is nothing that suggest you can have anything past the line/over the edge/off the table and not be destroyed. Show one rule that specifically allows you to have ANYTHING out side of the playing field, not just you misunderstanding the word 'completely'.

It's a permissive ruleset. If there is nothing that says you can have a part of the model outside the playing area, then you cannot. And there is nothing that says you can have anything outside the play area. Show a specific rule quote that says you can, because everything currently indicates you cannot.

BTW, the 'play area' is defined as the 6' x 4' board/table/mat/floorspace or whatever measurements you decide to play with. Anything beyond those measurements is not in the play area and is destroyed.

-cgmckenzie

JBW, in your argument that completely isn't defined, I give you this nice quote from a different rules discussion:

Playing a game with rules -- as opposed to, say, Calvinball -- requires some level of agreement that a word (like 'dodge' for example) means what it means. The rules were written in English. Therefore, "dodge" does not mean "turnip".

I think that we can all agree that "completely" involves the entirety of 'whatever.' I think we can also agree the hull (so in this case, every non-decorative part of the skimmer: wings, body etc) is part of the model. Therefore, if part of the model (the hull) is not on the table, you are not completely on.

You're arguing that the base is the only thing in consideration, which doesn't make any sense, as you're disregarding the hull as part of the model, which is clearly untrue.

In addition, you don't need to measure to see if part of the hull is off the table. Simply sight, or a straight edge would work.

in a 'makes contact' frame of mind.

Skimmers and jump infantry move in leaps, not in a direct way. Can I jump over the table edge and so avoid the "makes contact" bit?

cgmckenzie wrote:Again, there is nothing that suggest you can have anything past the line/over the edge/off the table and not be destroyed. Show one rule that specifically allows you to have ANYTHING out side of the playing field, not just you misunderstanding the word 'completely'.

It's a permissive ruleset. If there is nothing that says you can have a part of the model outside the playing area, then you cannot. And there is nothing that says you can have anything outside the play area. Show a specific rule quote that says you can, because everything currently indicates you cannot.

BTW, the 'play area' is defined as the 6' x 4' board/table/mat/floorspace or whatever measurements you decide to play with. Anything beyond those measurements is not in the play area and is destroyed.

-cgmckenzie

Again, I have mentioned again and again, there is nothing in the Rules that says either way that something hanging over the edge is destroyed. You have created this interpretation of when a model is 'unable to completely' arrive. I haven't yet used the same debating tactics that keep getting thrown my way. But I'll see how it works. Show me where in the rule book where it says that if something is hanging over the edge it is destroyed without misunderstanding the word 'contact'. It's a permissive ruleset. I agree. And there is nothing that says you can/can't have anything hanging over the edge.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94) A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

If I've completely moved onto the board, then I have made contact with the board completely with what I could make contact with, i.e. the base, or the hull if no base.

Q: What happens if, as a part of completing its move, after ramming inflicts a Destroyed – Explodes! result, a vehicle comes into contact with impassable terrain, the board edge or a friendly unit? (p69) A: The vehicle will end its move once it has come into contact with any of the above.

Again, if you actually take a look at this, when is the Flyer going to come in contact with the impassable terrain? friendly unit? or board edge? It's with its base.

Q: When a vehicle is destroyed by a Destroyed – Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage table you replace the vehicle with a similar sized area of difficult ground. What, if any, cover save does this area of difficult ground confer? (p61) A: It will confer a 4+ cover save to any eligible unit.

Are you then willing to take this hull fetish further. How large of a 'similar sized area' piece of terrain would you mark? I agree that anything beyond the table is destroyed, I'm not debating this. I'm debating that my base is completely in play, and that the only time an effect would occur is when I come in contact with it.

Playing a game with rules -- as opposed to, say, Calvinball -- requires some level of agreement that a word (like 'dodge' for example) means what it means. The rules were written in English. Therefore, "dodge" does not mean "turnip".

I 'completely' agree. So what does 'contact' mean to you? Maybe that's the question I need to ask my opponent every time I play. Apparently it means something different than what I'm used to.

I think that we can all agree that "completely" involves the entirety of 'whatever.' I think we can also agree the hull (so in this case, every non-decorative part of the skimmer: wings, body etc) is part of the model. Therefore, if part of the model (the hull) is not on the table, you are not completely on.

I agree, and I am insuring you that the 'whatever' is actually the part of the model that would contact the board edge (in this case the base). The hull is definitely part of the model, but to use it for anything else than coming in contact with something or measuring a distance, its not in the rules. If it is, please oh please show me where, and I will happily and appropriately bow out if it results in a destroyed result.

You're arguing that the base is the only thing in consideration, which doesn't make any sense, as you're disregarding the hull as part of the model, which is clearly untrue.

I'm disregarding the hull for Flyers because it doesn't make contact with the board edge, and that's the rules for when an effect occurs.

In addition, you don't need to measure to see if part of the hull is off the table. Simply sight, or a straight edge would work.

Now ya'll folks keep talking about a permissive rule set. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm trying to make a point. Where does it say that I am supposed to look to determine whether something is over the board edge, and tell me where it says the vehicle is destroyed or any effect occurs when it's hanging over the edge. I get that's a bit unfair, because obviously we have to use our eyes to play this game, but my point is the reference to the permissive paradigm.

"in a 'makes contact' frame of mind." Skimmers and jump infantry move in leaps, not in a direct way. Can I jump over the table edge and so avoid the "makes contact" bit?

I'm not sure I follow what you are asking. There's likely a bit of sarcasm, but to answer your question; sure, where will you place them to make contact on the board when they land? If you are playing an APOC game where two tables make an L, the jumpers can jump over the edge of the world to land on the adjoined table. I would even be ok with if you said you couldn't do that. Simply because the rules state you can not move off the the board.

For measuring, you don't measure to see if you are in terrain, it is a simple binary "yes/no", same goes for base to base contact and being completely on the board.

BRB FAQ(Last 2 versions at least)
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!

Moving hull to a point where it is off the table, even if it is just the wing, is disallowed in that tidbit up there. Nowhere does it say that the model being in contact with the table is all that is needed for it to be legal. The only restriction they use is 'the edge of the table', so anything past that edge is beyond 'the edge of the world' and not fully in the play area, so it is destroyed.

Moving a vehicle to be in a position where it's hull is past the edge of the table would be illegal. Moving on from reserve is still movement, so not coming on fully is illegal. The base is irrelevant here.

You can't use Apoc games as a basis for how rules work normally; Apocalypse is a different game with large overlap in rules and models, but the simple nature of it allows for extreme flexibility in play.

Take a Tau hovertank on a normal skimmer base. It isn't on the flying stand, so it is in terrain based on hull, disembarks to and from the hull, and contests to the hull. If it is over hanging the edge, it is off the table.

Take an infantry model, namely my warboss that is doing a serious lean. His body is hanging well past his base, but if he is past the table edge with the model, not the base he is fine. That is because the rules specifically say infantry, bikes, and beasts with bases and vehicles without 'hulls' occupy the space of their base. The skimmer has a hull, so while the base is used for several specific things, being on the board is not one of them.

-cgmckenzie