Model "on" the table or off?

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**puma713**

So, a friend and I are having a conversation about models being on the table or off. I don't have access to any of my rulebooks at the moment (because I'm at work and should be working rather than discussing 40K), so, I come here to folks that have access to the rules or have photographic memories.

What tells you that your models must be completely on the board, or off the board? My friend is suggesting that there is no rule that states you must place your model completely on or completely off - that it is somehow legal to have a model "partially" on the table and still be considered "on the table". While I vehemently disagree, as I said, I don't have any rules to back me up. Can anyone give me a hand with this with some relevant rules references?

**daedalus**

Any models that can't come entirely on the board count as destroyed and are removed from play.

It's in the FAQ cut and dry.

**puma713**

daedalus wrote:Any models that can't come entirely on the board count as destroyed and are removed from play.

It's in the FAQ cut and dry.

Right. I think this issue is more about deployment. What tells you that you must be deployed 100% on the table and not just 95%?

I think he's suggesting that partial deployment is legal, while I am not. We have discussed the fact that it is a permissive ruleset and you must be allowed to do something, and he asks then, what gives you permission to measure to the table edge at deployment? What tells you that you are not "on the table", when you are 50% or more on the table?

**blaktoof**

deployment is movement on the board.

the faq states that during deployment any models that are not on the table 100% are destroyed.

doesnt matter if they deepstrike on, move on, or start that way at the beginning of the game. = 100% destroyed.

**Rimmy**

yea thats pretty much it. your friend is wrong.

its even in the RAW.

if a unit is deep striking, they are "off" the table in reserve. (although if you have them shoved on a corner and marked as DS then they can be physically on the table)

**puma713**

All these things are great, but they're all inferences. What tells you specifically that I cannot take a Land Raider and deploy it with its back end sitting over the board edge?

**JBW**

<- The guilty friend.

The discussion began with 'large oval base' Skimmers and whether the base is the only thing that determines whether it is 'completely' on the board.

I'll ask you guys to specifically reference the FAQ as some of you are adding what you read, not what is actually written.

**Rimmy**

JBW wrote:<- The guilty friend.

The discussion began with 'large oval base' Skimmers and whether the base is the only thing that determines whether it is 'completely' on the board.

I'll ask you guys to specifically reference the FAQ as some of you are adding what you read, not what is actually written.

greetings!

well, I would have to say on the topic of skimmers, its the base. if the base is on, its on.

the RAW only ever reference the base or hull of the model.

in the instance of a land raider, if the hull cannot be on the tabletop, you just lost a land raider.

I will reference the pages of the RAW when I get home and can grab them.

**puma713**

Rimmy wrote:
JBW wrote:<- The guilty friend.

The discussion began with 'large oval base' Skimmers and whether the base is the only thing that determines whether it is 'completely' on the board.

I'll ask you guys to specifically reference the FAQ as some of you are adding what you read, not what is actually written.

greetings!

well, I would have to say on the topic of skimmers, its the base. if the base is on, its on.

This is why I didn't want to bring up the actual conversation, because the thread would get off on a skimmer versus vehicle tangent. I just wanted to discuss the board edge bit.

**Rimmy**

puma713 wrote:
Rimmy wrote:
JBW wrote:<- The guilty friend.

The discussion began with 'large oval base' Skimmers and whether the base is the only thing that determines whether it is 'completely' on the board.

I'll ask you guys to specifically reference the FAQ as some of you are adding what you read, not what is actually written.

greetings!

well, I would have to say on the topic of skimmers, its the base. if the base is on, its on.

This is why I didn't want to bring up the actual conversation, because the thread would get off on a skimmer versus vehicle tangent. I just wanted to discuss the board edge bit.

well there is a difference though.

the board edge rule applies to the base of the model. in the instance of vehicles where there is no base, rather the hull of the model, thats where the distinction lies.

when you measure for LOS or for firing purposes you use the base on a skimmer, so the deployment would use the base as well.

its still pretty cut and dry.

**JBW**

That's fine with me. Because they are not privy to the previous discussions we had about this topic. Let us discuss the % of model that is required to be 'completely' on the table. My view point, if I can state it accurately, is that semantically and specifically the MRB or FAQs do not address what is defined as a complete model in regards to whether it is deployed 'completely'. I know this sounds silly at first, but engage this and actually try to find it. All references to a hull or base that you are given grant permission to measure the distance moved or the distance from another model. Let's take out shooting as it's not really part of the discussion.

**Rimmy**

sorry, an add, the movement phase also uses the base of the skimmer. and as mentioned above, deployment is still movement for the intent of setting up the game.

**JBW**

again folks, post specific MRB quotes, as you are still referencing the what you read, not what is written.

**Rimmy**

the RAW state that the entire hull or base of a bodel (which covers everything) must be completely on the table at the time of deployment or movement. any part of the model moved, deployed or otherwise, that is off the board, is considered out of the game as it has left the active battle.

its simple. the percentage is 100% on is on, anything LESS than 100%, is off the table and therefore removed from play.

because a slkimmer is a based model, its base must be fully on the board to be playable.

any vehicle (or otherwise) model that does not have a base (which includes the monolith) its hull must be on the table.

**puma713**

Rimmy wrote:sorry, an add, the movement phase also uses the base of the skimmer. and as mentioned above, deployment is still movement for the intent of setting up the game.

Alright, to nip this in the bud and get on with the actual thread, all measurements for a skimmer are done to the hull. You ignore the base of skimmers for all purposes except for assault. Valkyries/Vendettas and Stormravens have caveats in their relevent FAQs, but the BGB is explicit:

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:
Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent 'flying bases' under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull, with the exceptions of the vehicle's weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.

This was supplied by our conversation; I don't have my rulebook on me, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

The topic it hand is: Where does it say that you must be 100% on the table to be considered "on the table". Not movement, not coming in from reserves, not deep-striking. Just simply placed on the edge of the table with the rear hanging off. Why does this work/not work?

**daedalus**

JBW wrote:That's fine with me. Because they are not privy to the previous discussions we had about this topic. Let us discuss the % of model that is required to be 'completely' on the table. My view point, if I can state it accurately, is that semantically and specifically the MRB or FAQs do not address what is defined as a complete model in regards to whether it is deployed 'completely'. I know this sounds silly at first, but engage this and actually try to find it. All references to a hull or base that you are given grant permission to measure the distance moved or the distance from another model. Let's take out shooting as it's not really part of the discussion.

I see what you're trying to do here, but the pitfall with this is that it's a permissive system. "Because it says I can't" isn't a valid option, otherwise one could make such statements as "of course I can cover any of your models I kill with whipped cream and eat them. Show me where it says otherwise." As delicious as that would be, it doesn't work.

So I can't give you a page number where it says "Don't deploy stuff halfway on." I can give you this from http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830600a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_4.pdf however:

The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play.

So, in EVERY situation where they've ever referenced placing models and an edge of the table is involved, they've said it's 100% or 0%. If that's not sufficient proof to believe that they didn't somehow intend for you to be able to deploy halfway on the table despite how in every other situation they say it's not allowed, well, then I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you.

**Eldanar**

Part of the problem is that it is intrinsically unfair to have part of a model hanging off of a table, because this effectively gives that model "cover" from blast weapons that scatter to the portion that is off the table, because the blast is then off the table. It also allows the model to lengthen ranges from weapons being shot at it, again, by having an inch or two of the model hanging off of the table, which otherwise would push them closer to the shooter.

The skimmer thing is a whole different can of worms. I play it has to be all on. I've seen other people who think otherwise. The problem then becomes what is the foot print of the model, for assaulting and measuring ranges to it?

Lets say I have a side shot at a vendetta that is part on and part off of the table, at a slight angle. Lets say I am in range to shoot at the side hull near the tail, but which is off the table, but I am barely out of range for the portion of the vehicle on the table. It would be very inequitable to say my shot fails because it goes off table, and yet the vehicle is not destroyed even though it is hanging partly off the table.

These types of issues are prevented simply by taking an all-on approach for models.

**daedalus**

I mean, I don't like it. I don't think it makes sense. Makes bringing a Baneblade in from table edge in Dawn of War mighty tricky. It's DA ROOLZ though, and that's what we do here.

**JBW**

The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly specify that they can. All good wargamers know that the edge of the table is the end of the world!

Not suggesting that the model is trying to move off the table. And deployment is not moving onto the table. In this case I'm moving onto the table.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

"completely" Means the hull, or base? I agree that it doesn't specify what completely means. So I mentioned my interpretation of 'completely' for Flyers (or Skimmers with large oval flying bases) to mean base.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move along with its direction and move the tank onto the board that many inches, measuring from the board edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count as destroyed and are removed from play.

GW once again doesn't not specify what "the entire vehicle" is. If the vehicle's table top footprint is the base then that to me would mean a skimmer has met this requirement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is an excerpt of Puma and I discussing on a different forum....

Where does it mention in the MRB or anywhere about a hull hanging over the edge? The best anyone could really do is agree that it is not covered in the MRB. Then as you correctly mentioned, we go to the FAQs for clarification. I'll assume for now that you are getting the 'hull over the edge' from this:

Quote:
Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94) A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

There's nothing said about a hull. So once again the best we can do is discuss what is meant by 'completely'. Up until this point everyone could have left part of their model off the table. So long as it stayed on the table it technically was legal. Noone (that was a decent gamer) would try this but it was not clear.

**daedalus**

JBW wrote:
Not suggesting that the model is trying to move off the table. And deployment is not moving onto the table. In this case I'm moving onto the table.

Sure.

"completely" Means the hull, or base? I agree that it doesn't specify what completely means. So I mentioned my interpretation of 'completely' for Flyers (or Skimmers with large oval flying bases) to mean base.

"Completely" doesn't have a game definition, so it is left to default to the English definition. In this case, "completely" would mean "the entirely of it", the "whole shebang" or perhaps "kit and caboodle", if you please.

GW once again doesn't not specify what "the entire vehicle" is. If the vehicle's table top footprint is the base then that to me would mean a skimmer has met this requirement.

And that's the beauty of it. If they don't specify what the entire vehicle is, then the entire vehicle is the entire vehicle, right? I mean, what else COULD it be.

Also, vehicle's tabletop footprint is the base for the purposes of assaults, contesting objectives, deploying, and determining whether or not you're over terrain features that might count as dangerous. It's not the footprint for other things, such as blast markers, templates, LoS, or shooting range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Where does it mention in the MRB or anywhere about a hull hanging over the edge? The best anyone could really do is agree that it is not covered in the MRB. Then as you correctly mentioned, we go to the FAQs for clarification. I'll assume for now that you are getting the 'hull over the edge' from this:

Quote:
Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94) A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

There's nothing said about a hull. So once again the best we can do is discuss what is meant by 'completely'. Up until this point everyone could have left part of their model off the table. So long as it stayed on the table it technically was legal. Noone (that was a decent gamer) would try this but it was not clear.

Doesn't need to be anything about a hull. You have a unit, which is made up of one or more models. If the model is infantry, then you are done. If the model is a vehicle, then it will have a hull, and certain decorative elements. The decorative elements are said specifically to not be a part of the hull.

**puma713**

daedalus wrote:
Also, vehicle's tabletop footprint is the base for the purposes of assaults, contesting objectives, deploying, and determining whether or not you're over terrain features that might count as dangerous.

Unless it is a skimmer. A skimmer has a specific ruling that you ignore the base for all purposes except assault. Certain "flyer" models have caveats in their FAQs, but, as a general rule, a skimmer ignores its base, meaning you measure all distances from the hull. I wouldn't be able to hang my Falcon model halfway over the deployment line because my base is so far back on the model, just like I can't hang a Land Raider over the table edge.

So, we've established that a model must be "completely" on the table. And that refers to a model in its entirety, because there is no allowance for anything but its entirety. Therefore, vehicles must be moved/deployed in their entirety on the table, else they are destroyed.

Edit: I'm not trying to bully my viewpoint in here, I'm just trying to find a common ground where JBW and I can resume our former conversation.

**JBW**

Eldanar wrote:Part of the problem is that it is intrinsically unfair to have part of a model hanging off of a table, because this effectively gives that model "cover" from blast weapons that scatter to the portion that is off the table, because the blast is then off the table. It also allows the model to lengthen ranges from weapons being shot at it, again, by having an inch or two of the model hanging off of the table, which otherwise would push them closer to the shooter.

The skimmer thing is a whole different can of worms. I play it has to be all on. I've seen other people who think otherwise. The problem then becomes what is the foot print of the model, for assaulting and measuring ranges to it?

Lets say I have a side shot at a vendetta that is part on and part off of the table, at a slight angle. Lets say I am in range to shoot at the side hull near the tail, but which is off the table, but I am barely out of range for the portion of the vehicle on the table. It would be very inequitable to say my shot fails because it goes off table, and yet the vehicle is not destroyed even though it is hanging partly off the table.

These types of issues are prevented simply by taking an all-on approach for models.

Eldanar, I see the concern, and please know that I'm not intentionally attempting to get a All benefits/No drawbacks debate going here, but I do offer this:
*Removed*

**Ok, so the MRB says the vehicle is hit and doesn't mention a table edge miss. Here's the reference

If a vehicle is even partially under a template weapon, it is hit on the Armour value the firer is facing.

When firing a blast weapon against a vehicle, place the marker with the hole over any part of the vehicle's hull and then roll for scatter as normal. In the case of multiple blasts, place the hole in the center of the first marker on the vehicle's hull. If the markers scatter so that they're not over the vehicle at all, then obviously the vehicle is not affected. If a marker ends over the vehicle, it makes a big difference if the hole in the center of the marker is over the vehicle or not:

• The center of the blast marker ends over the vehicle's hull. In this case the shell or missile has hit the vehicle and exploded on it. The armour penetration roll is resolved against the Armour value facing the firer, regardless of the position of the marker, using the full Strength of the weapon. Hits from barrage weapons, however, always hit the vehicle's side armour (representing its top armour).

• The center of the blast marker ends outside the vehicle, but part of the marker covers its hull. In this case the shell or missile has missed the vehicle, and only some shrapnel clanks against the vehicle's armour. The armour penetration roll is resolved against the Armour Value facing the center of the marker, regardless of the position of the firer, and the weapon 's Strength is halved (round down).

**daedalus**

JBW wrote:
Yes, the shot would be a miss, but if you read the rest of the rules, you wouldn't have hit the vehicle anyways as only the base counts towards whether it is hit or not. The initial placement was where you wanted it to be and where it ends up is what determines is hit.

When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle.

?

**JBW**

daedalus, that's to target infantry, and it's not in the shooting a vehicle section. sorry. Poor reference on my part. I fixed it, see above.

**puma713**

JBW wrote:
**Ok, so the MRB says the vehicle is hit and doesn't mention a table edge miss. Here's the reference

If you have all your Orks on a sheet tray on the right side of the table, waiting to come onto the board, can I shoot at them with a blast weapon if they are in range? If not, why not? I'll save the rhetoric: Because they're off the table. Just as much as a vehicle's hull is "off the table" if it is partially on the table. That is what Eldanar is getting at.

The table edge is no-man's land. Shots miss if they go off of it, entire units are removed if one model touches it, if a model coming on from the side doesn't make it on, they are destroyed. It is not something that can be circumvented. This is a hard and fast rule of 40K and always has been, as far as I can remember.

**DeathReaper**

This tells us that units in reserve have to be on the board completely. (I.E. it can not be off the board at all.)

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

As for deployment P.92 has the three deployment types.

All three state that you must deploy IN your half of the table (Or IN one of the table quarters).

So you can not deploy outside of our deployment zone, this includes hanging off the table edge.

Check out this thread (Before the FaQ came out) about the discussion between on and off the table, interesting read.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315833.page

**JBW**

puma713 wrote:
Edit: I'm not trying to bully my viewpoint in here, I'm just trying to find a common ground where JBW and I can resume our former conversation.

I agree and understand. I just don't see where the FAQ defines that the entire Flyer type model as 'completely' and 'entire' when its base is 'completely' and 'entire'ly on the table.

**puma713**

DeathReaper wrote:
As for deployment P.92 has the three deployment types.

All three state that you must deploy IN your half of the table (Or IN one of the table quarters).

So you can not deploy outside of our deployment zone, this includes hanging off the table edge.

Thank you, DR. This is about as close as we've come to a definitive answer about deployment. If you're told to put something in a box, and it is hanging outside of the box, then you're not doing what you're told.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JBW wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Edit: I'm not trying to bully my viewpoint in here, I'm just trying to find a common ground where JBW and I can resume our former conversation.
I agree and understand. I just don't see where the FAQ defines that the entire Flyer type model as 'completely' and 'entire' when its base is 'completely' and 'entire'ly on the table.

Which is ignored for all purposes except for assault. And a few other things (disembarking, testing for terrain, etc.).

**cgmckenzie**

To put it simply-

1)If the entirety of the vehicle's hull is not inside the boundaries set by the table edge, the vehicle is not on the table and is destroyed.

2)If the base of any infantry model in a unit is not entirely on the board, the unit is destroyed.

3)If the base of a walker(sentinel/dreadnaught/killa kan) is not entirely on the table, the model is destroyed.

Take a ruler and run it along the playing edges in a vertical fashion. If it hits the base or hull of anything, that model is wrong.

-cgmckenzie

**JBW**

puma713 wrote:If you have all your Orks on a sheet tray on the right side of the table, waiting to come onto the board, can I shoot at them with a blast weapon if they are in range? If not, why not? I'll save the rhetoric: Because they're off the table. Just as much as a vehicle's hull is "off the table" if it is partially on the table. That is what Eldanar is getting at.

The table edge is no-man's land. Shots miss if they go off of it, entire units are removed if one model touches it, if a model coming on from the side doesn't make it on, they are destroyed. It is not something that can be circumvented. This is a hard and fast rule of 40K and always has been, as far as I can remember.

Ha! nicely done. But the rules actually are different for shooting at infantry than at vehicles, and the rules do not mention a missed shot as long as part of the blast marker is over the hull of the model.