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So what does 'contact' mean to you?

I'm confused. Please, point out where "contact" is used in the rules, as you seem to be the only one inferring that on the board only refers to the part of the model that contacts it.

I'm disregarding the hull for Flyers because it doesn't make contact with the board edge, and that's the rules for when an effect occurs.

You're using the 5th edition rule book yes? Please, where does it mention "flyers" ANYWHERE in the book? You are talking about skimmers, just one that happens to have a large base. You're using words that are not present in the rulebook that you are inferring should exist, thereby making things more complicated than they need to be.

A valkyrie, being a skimmer, follows the rules for skimmers unless otherwise noted. This mean, the hull is used for everything except in the specific instances related in the FAQs. So, for the purposes of being on the table, you use the hull, because that is not included as an exception.

Now ya'll folks keep talking about a permissive rule set. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm trying to make a point. Where does it say that I am supposed to look to determine whether something is over the board edge, and tell me where it says the vehicle is destroyed or any effect occurs when it's hanging over the edge.

Where does it say that you are supposed to check to make sure players are within their deployment zones at all? You are required to deploy in a certain area, but nowhere does it say to check that you have done this. While both players may know that one has obviously deployed outside the deployment zone, there is no legal way to check this, and so it can't be empirically proven, thus is just an opinion with no facts.

It's a permissive ruleset. I agree. And there is nothing that says you can/can't have anything hanging over the edge.

Therefore you can't. There's nothing in the rules about marines moving as skimmers shooting dual pulse lasers as a special rule (neither for nor against), so surely you can do that as well.

JBW wrote: Now ya'll folks keep talking about a permissive rule set. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm trying to make a point. Where does it say that I am supposed to look to determine whether something is over the board edge, and tell me where it says the vehicle is destroyed or any effect occurs when it's hanging over the edge. I get that's a bit unfair, because obviously we have to use our eyes to play this game, but my point is the reference to the permissive paradigm.

Maybe you don't understand what a permissive rule set is. If the rules don't say that you can do something then you can't do it. There is no way to show that you can't do something in the game only that you are allowed to do so. So for you to say "show me where it says I can't hang pieces over the edge of the board" is an impossibility. The onus is on you to show where in the rules it says that you can.

Also, if you want to be asinine about checking the to see if something is over the board edge then I guess you have no problem with me moving my infantry 10" because you can't show me where it says that you're allowed to check how far I move. There are rules that define how big an area the game is to be played within. There are no rules that state that you can go outside those bounds (in fact the rules state that pieces must be in bounds at all times or they are destroyed).

So, as far as I'm concerned, unless you can show by rule where a model is allowed to remain in play while not completely on the table this discussion is finished.

For what it's worth, when I worked for Games Workshop the board edge was described as an invisible, infinitely tall wall that started at the physical edge of the board and went up. Any unit bases (except flying bases) that crossed that wall, even by the tiniest amount, were destroyed. Any vehicle hulls (except walkers as they have proper bases) that crossed that wall, even by the tiniest amount, were destroyed. This applied to anything that occurred during the game.

During deployment, unit bases had to fall within the confines of the deployment zone. Vehicles (not including walkers as they have proper bases) use their hull as the determining factor as to whether or not they are in the deployment zone. Flying bases are only used to physically support the model in a flying/skimming pose and to give short models something to come into contact with during an assault.

cgmckenzie wrote:For measuring, you don't measure to see if you are in terrain, it is a simple binary "yes/no", same goes for base to base contact and being completely on the board.

BRB FAQ(Last 2 versions at least)
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!

Moving hull to a point where it is off the table, even if it is just the wing, is disallowed in that tidbit up there. Nowhere does it say that the model being in contact with the table is all that is needed for it to be legal. The only restriction they use is 'the edge of the table', so anything past that edge is beyond 'the edge of the world' and not fully in the play area, so it is destroyed.

Moving a vehicle to be in a position where it's hull is past the edge of the table would be illegal. Moving on from reserve is still movement, so not coming on fully is illegal. The base is irrelevant here.

This goes back once agin to defining 'off', and I understand that this particular word has been beaten to death on another thread, and I don't intend to recreate that. The 'edge' itself is clearly not a wall of effect. And you are not stating what the rules actually say, instead you add your interpretation when stating what you are still reading wrong. I'll try and be specific; you say 'so anything past the edge' which is utterly different than 'move off the table' or even 'comes in contact with the edge'. I think if you attempt to not imply a LandRaider mentality to this and look at it again, you would agree with me.

You can't use Apoc games as a basis for how rules work normally; Apocalypse is a different game with large overlap in rules and models, but the simple nature of it allows for extreme flexibility in play.

Who is doing this? A silly question was asked and the only way I could possibly see this relevant is to bring up a situation in which there was a place to put the models that jumped/moved. I'm not using Apoc games for anything other than that one question, so let's not get derailed or misinterpret what I'm trying to get across.

Take a Tau hovertank on a normal skimmer base. It isn't on the flying stand, so it is in terrain based on hull, disembarks to and from the hull, and contests to the hull. If it is over hanging the edge, it is off the table.

My point exactly. Take a Large Oval Skimmer, it's in terrain via it's base, disembarks to and from the base, and contests from the base. If it's base is hanging over the edge, it's destroyed.

Take an infantry model, namely my warboss that is doing a serious lean. His body is hanging well past his base, but if he is past the table edge with the model, not the base he is fine. That is because the rules specifically say infantry, bikes, and beasts with bases and vehicles without 'hulls' occupy the space of their base. The skimmer has a hull, so while the base is used for several specific things, being on the board is not one of them.

Gosh, you came so close to comparing the vehicle with an infantry, thought I almost had ya. The hull is only mentioned for measuring distances, determining LOS, and the off chance that something tall can contact the Large Oval Skimmer, for assault. You say that the base is used for only specific instances, but you mention every instance it could be used in the game, other than what I have. It's not specific instances, it's all the instances! I agree that the hull defines the size and shape and depth, but that is only for measuring distances, and LOS. I do appreciate you conversing with me on this, but I just don't see the logic in what you are implying. I'm not going to base my tactics on this but I'm still convinced how I would see it played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shan, please start over and read from the beginning, you are missing huge portions of the discussion here and are way out of line. Headaches or not, if you don't begin to provide some sort of informative reply, I'll simply have to ignore you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kris, this makes more sense than anything I've come across, and I can only hope that GW either mentions this to clarify these shady models as of late. Thanks for the mention, and I'll share it with my local group, as another view point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

JBW wrote: Now ya'll folks keep talking about a permissive rule set. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm trying to make a point. Where does it say that I am supposed to look to determine whether something is over the board edge, and tell me where it says the vehicle is destroyed or any effect occurs when it's hanging over the edge. I get that's a bit unfair, because obviously we have to use our eyes to play this game, but my point is the reference to the permissive paradigm.

Maybe you don't understand what a permissive rule set is. If the rules don't say that you can do something then you can't do it. There is no way to show that you can't do something in the game only that you are allowed to do so. So for you to say "show me where it says I can't hang pieces over the edge of the board" is an impossibility. The onus is on you to show where in the rules it says that you can.

Also, if you want to be asinine about checking the to see if something is over the board edge then I guess you have no problem with me moving my infantry 10" because you can't show me where it says that you're allowed to check how far I move. There are rules that define how big an area the game is to be played within. There are no rules that state that you can go outside those bounds (in fact the rules state that pieces must be in bounds at all times or they are destroyed).

So, as far as I'm concerned, unless you can show by rule where a model is allowed to remain in play while not completely on the table this discussion is finished.

Or maybe I do understand the permissive rules. I've established quite clearly I believe what permissive rules allow me to place my model on the board and even discuss what rules affect the model and when. I must respond with, the onus is currently on you to show me where and how specifically my model comes in contact with the edge to be destroyed, or explain to me how "completely onto the table" some how includes a portion of the model that the permissive rules tell me that I can only measure from, draw LOS too, and on occasion assault from, in which if it fails, is destroyed.

You are getting upset it seems and failing to provide supporting references. Are you saying that you would measure and then move further? That would be cheating, truly.

I think for now this should likely be put to rest, as I don't intend to continue trying to convince or restate what I've already covered. I think the best arguments are that you deploy your models 'in' the deployment zone, and what Kris mentioned regarding that the flying stand is merely to elevate the model. It's just a shame that there is so much interaction with that supporting base, it leaves one (and maybe only one) to believe that it actually occupies the portion of the surface of the table that is its base.

Thanks to those that actually wanted to discuss this

JBW wrote:or explain to me how "completely onto the table" some how includes a portion of the model

I am really curious about this statement, is it meant to be sarcasm?

If you truly do not understand it, let me try to explain. No that will take too long, I sum up.

By definition "completely onto the table" includes all parts of the model, and/or all portions of said model. Completely means that no tiny sliver of the model can be anywhere except on the table, for vehicles this means the hull, for non vehicles this means the base.

I hope this helps.

Take a Large Oval Skimmer, it's in terrain via it's base, disembarks to and from the base, and contests from the base. If it's base is hanging over the edge, it's destroyed.

yes, yes, yes, yes. Of course if its hull is hanging over the edge it is also destroyed as no rule allows you to circumvent that aspect of the vehicle rules.

Shan, please start over and read from the beginning, you are missing huge portions of the discussion here and are way out of line. Headaches or not, if you don't begin to provide some sort of informative reply, I'll simply have to ignore you.

If I didn't get it the first time, I'm not spending time reading the entire thread again. Restate your points in another way, and actually respond to my points. It takes far less time, and I don't have the amount of time to devote to re-reading a thread.

Basically, I'm using your own arguments to prove my point. I'm not inferring anything (I don't infer "contact" for a model being on the table). Basically, the table edge is an abstraction (the edge of the playing world), so any contact you'd have there is abstract as well.

I also again bring up that there is no rule that allows players to check that they are deployed correctly, only a rule saying you must do so. Similarly, there is no rule saying to check to make sure that you're completely on the table. Some rules have to be inferred for the sake of sanity.

Really, I'm rather confused how my reply was without point.

You are getting upset it seems and failing to provide supporting references.

And your supporting references are faulty. You are quoting certain bits of rules, and trying to claim you're exempt from others (the fact that anything dealing with vehicles is measured to the hull, unless otherwise stated such as in the faq about large flying bases and their few exceptions).

Are you saying that you would measure and then move further? That would be cheating, truly.

To be fair, no where in the rules does it say to measure how far your infantry move. It is implied by saying they can move up to 6", but nowhere does it say to measure this.

Basically half my point is your argument that the rules don't say you can measure from the vehicle to the table edge is flawed because there are so many other cases where it doesn't explicitly say to measure. The other half is that you're arguing "completely" is "this part, but not this other part" which has absolutely no grounds in either the rules or the English language.

Vehicles on the large oval flying base (LOFB from now on) follow all skimmer rules except where mentioned specifically in regards to the LOFB. So claiming that the hull is only used for measuring shooting/LOS is false, because there are plenty of other things that you could use the hull for that are not explicitly stated as being measured to the base. Have an incomplete list:

1)Determining if the model is off the table. The base is used to determine if it is in terrain for checks, but says nothing about being used for the edge of the table, so it defaults to the hull.

2)Being shot at. Shooting is measured to the gun/missile/dude-leaning-out-the-window-throwing-rocks because vehicle rules specifically say so.

3)Determining LOS to shoot at the vehicle. Shots must hit the hull, not the LOFB.

4)Creating a wreck. The vehicle becomes the wreck, not the LOFB. Same as with an explosion; the crater is based on the hull's shape, not the LOFB.

Anytime you use the LOFB to do something, it is specifically allowed in the rules to not happen to the hull solely. Literally EVERYTHING else happens to the hull. So, is the LOFB specifically allowed to be used to determine if it is on/off the board(not in/out of terrain, specifically 'the board')?

-cgmckenzie

Actually dude-leaning-out-the-window-throwing-rocks would a decorative element

Not if I pay 5 pts for a S1 AP- assault 1 rock thrower

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Vehicles on the large oval flying base (LOFB from now on) follow all skimmer rules except where mentioned specifically in regards to the LOFB. So claiming that the hull is only used for measuring shooting/LOS is false, because there are plenty of other things that you could use the hull for that are not explicitly stated as being measured to the base. Have an incomplete list:

1)Determining if the model is off the table. The base is used to determine if it is in terrain for checks, but says nothing about being used for the edge of the table, so it defaults to the hull.

2)Being shot at. Shooting is measured to the gun/missile/dude-leaning-out-the-window-throwing-rocks because vehicle rules specifically say so.

3)Determining LOS to shoot at the vehicle. Shots must hit the hull, not the LOFB.

4)Creating a wreck. The vehicle becomes the wreck, not the LOFB. Same as with an explosion; the crater is based on the hull's shape, not the LOFB.

Anytime you use the LOFB to do something, it is specifically allowed in the rules to not happen to the hull solely. Literally EVERYTHING else happens to the hull. So, is the LOFB specifically allowed to be used to determine if it is on/off the board(not in/out of terrain, specifically 'the board')?

-cgmckenzie

I've said all of those already, where does it define what is on/off the table. For the love of baby jesus, show me where it says that. And please revist the skimmer wrecked rules, cause I'll just glue all my stands to my hull. Here is more food for thought.

The Reference Below

1. When moving on from reserves, how fast are the Vendettas / Storm Ravens / Dark Eldar Flyers considered to have moved? (This is in regards to shooting more than one weapon … aka, going 6\\\” or less.)

These types of units must move on so that their flying bases are completely on the table. Keep in mind, however, that if a blast or template weapon impacts the vehicle’s components that are hanging off the table; this will hit them even though the weapon itself is no longer technically in play. Please keep in mind that this ruling only applies to vehicles with appropriate bases – you may not intentionally leave portions of vehicles such as Land Raiders hanging off the table.

And before any of you go on some crazy rant about how so-n-so can make a tournament and I'll just use their FAQ, don't. You'll simply disgrace well known tournaments. I post this link simply because it shows that a well known respected event is currently (and may not always, even on this topic) agree with me.

Tournaments are free to break rules to their likings, and many do. None of their house rules have any bearing on rules outside their events. Nova is explicitly changing rules here.

Also note that your source is outdated, as it was written before the most recent FAQ update.

If any part of your model outside of the 6'x4' playing area, it is not completely on the table.

Ah, thanks for the date mention, I looked for it, and could not find it. But still respectfully disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now we are talking Shan!

I'm not circumventing any rules. I'm completely onto the table. Giving my understanding of 'onto' I'd say that my base is the only way I can get 'onto' the table. You can't land the Flyer during the game.

Basically, I'm using your own arguments to prove my point. I'm not inferring anything (I don't infer "contact" for a model being on the table). Basically, the table edge is an abstraction (the edge of the playing world), so any contact you'd have there is abstract as well.

I also again bring up that there is no rule that allows players to check that they are deployed correctly, only a rule saying you must do so. Similarly, there is no rule saying to check to make sure that you're completely on the table. Some rules have to be inferred for the sake of sanity.

Really, I'm rather confused how my reply was without point.

As I've stated before, when would the Flyer make contact with the edge of the board?

Anywhere it says that you must be a certain distance away or that you can only move a certain distance is a requirement to measure, I can post references if needed but I think you are not depating that, but trying to make another point that I'm not yet following.

And your supporting references are faulty. You are quoting certain bits of rules, and trying to claim you're exempt from others (the fact that anything dealing with vehicles is measured to the hull, unless otherwise stated such as in the faq about large flying bases and their few exceptions).

Show me where I'm taking all the goodies and leaving all the baddies please sir. Where does it say that you use the hull to determine what is on/off the board. At least it says in deployment that it must be deployed in the zone. And even then the model is in the deployment zone if it's point of contact is completely in and on the table. The table has an edge as it says in the rule book. It's not a box, a dome, or any other enclosure.

To be fair, no where in the rules does it say to measure how far your infantry move. It is implied by saying they can move up to 6", but nowhere does it say to measure this.

Basically half my point is your argument that the rules don't say you can measure from the vehicle to the table edge is flawed because there are so many other cases where it doesn't explicitly say to measure. The other half is that you're arguing "completely" is "this part, but not this other part" which has absolutely no grounds in either the rules or the English language.

I'll post where it says you have to measure, cause I had to look for it too. But I agree with what you are saying. The measuring from the back table edge was carry over from a discussion that the rules say something about having to deploy specifically, where my response was that they only tell you to measure the distance from the center line of the deployment type.

The 'completely' discussion should really include 'onto'. It eventually was dropped and I was victim to group think and chasing debates that did not address my initial point. So I'll clarify and say 'completely onto' the table is simply getting the point at which the model can possibly contact the table completely onto the table.

You have no rules basis for the disagreement. If you are not within the 6x4 area, with a common english usage of the word "completely", you have broken the rules.

Care to explain why a landraider may not stay partially off the table but a skimmer may? Do you have any rules to back you up, or are you just right because you say so?

In addition, even the exact FAQ you quoted says that parts of skimmers outside the playing field are not on the table.

nos has it right. The game area is a 6x4 zone or whatever you agree with before the game starts. Anything with parts outside of that area is not completely in the zone. Plain and simple.

And do not quote tourney rules. So-n-so can make a tournament with the same validity of rules in the rest of play. GW's own Throne of Skulls breaks several rules and contradicts the official FAQ on numerous occasions, but that doesn't make it legal for the rest of the gaming world.

-cgmckenzie

Can I deploy my model with part of it off the table?

No, because you must deploy your model within its deployment zone, which is specified as being specific portions of the board. Just as you aren't allowed to deploy models partially outside of their deployment zone when fully on the table, the same exact logic applies to having part of the model hanging off the table.

And as secondary support, the FAQ answer about moving a model off the table uses the description that the edge of the board is to be treated like the edge of the world in a manner...which enforces the idea that the edge of the board is a cut-off to represent that the model is either completely on or completely off the table.


But with Skimmers on a large oval base, am I measuring from the base or the vehicle's hull for deployment and movement purposes?

Skimmers, even those on large oval bases, as described in the rules measure ranges to and from their hull. However, most of the Skimmer models that are on the large oval base have a few exceptions listed to this rule of when you measure to/from its base:

1) When embarking/disembarking.
2) When contesting/capturing an objective.
3) Per the rulebook FAQ, when determining if the Skimmer is on or off other models and terrain.

But in ALL other instances, the basic rules would be used and you would measure everything to the hull of the skimmer. So when a Skimmer on a large oval base has to be deployed on the board (or moved on the board) the entire model must be over the table because this is not a listed instance where you are measuring using the model's base.


As ancillary information, the rulebook FAQ also covers two other situations:

1) Vehicles failing to move all the way onto the table when arriving from Reserves.
2) Vehicles Deep Striking partially off the table.

In both instances, they have ruled that vehicles are not allowed to be partially off the table. The first instance (unable to fully arrive from reserves) means the vehicle is destroyed and the 2nd instance means that the vehicle partially off the table does not count as being on the table, as this is what causes a deep strike mishap to occur.

So in other words, in all cases GW has been very consistent: A model is not allowed to be even partially off the table...the table edge is considered the 'edge of the world' that fully determines whether or not a model is in or out of the game.

cgmckenzie wrote:Not if I pay 5 pts for a S1 AP- assault 1 rock thrower

-cgmckenzie

You obviously have never been on the business end of a rock thrower. S1 AP- my ass!

I was bored earlier, so I thought I would actually go through the relevant rule's portions to more clearly state (if possible, when dealing with GW rule's writing) the "table edge" position.


General Rule:
Unlike models with bases, vehicles measure [all] distances from the hull.

This sets up two separate things: first, that models with bases measure to and from the base, unless they are a vehicle; and second, that the hull is used for vehicles (whatever "hull" is). Hull is later defined (somewhat), by saying what does not count as part of the hull; with the implication being everything else does.

First Exception:
Range and LOS are measured from the gun barrel and along the gun mounting.

Second Exception:
Skimmers have a base, and some distances are measured to and from it, assaults, etc.

Third Exception:
From the IG FAQ:
Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for
gaming? Due to its height it seems that it is
impossible for a Valkyrie to contest an objective,
or for troops to disembark/embark normally.
A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the
Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook with the following exception: For the
purposes of contesting objectives and
embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie or
Vendetta, measure to and from the model’s base.
For example, models wishing to embark within a
Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their
movement, all models within the unit are within
2" of the Valkyrie’s base.

So, by RAW, valks and vendettas (only, AFAIK) have further exceptions dealing with deployment, terrain, placement over models, etc. However, for everything else they default to the normal skimmer rules; which in turn default to the normal vehicle rules for measuring distances; meaning the hull is used for everything not shooting related or specifically excepted.

I have not checked on storm ravens or other flyers in their various FAQ's, but most people tend to grandfather them in with valks and vendettas in this regard.

So far we have established that flyers are skimmers; skimmers have some specific exceptions and flyers have some specific exceptions; and for everthing not specifically excepted, they default to the normal vehicle rules.

Here is where it gets interesting...

There are a series of FAQ topics dealing with the board edge, movement onto and off of the table, etc.:

Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!

Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its
hull? (p60)
A: Yes.

Q: Can models moving out of the way of a tank shock
after passing their Morale test be forced to move off of
the board if that is the shortest distance to get out
from underneath the vehicle? (p68)
A: No, they must move the shortest distance that also
keeps them on the board.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play.

Q: What happens if, as a part of completing its move,
after ramming inflicts a Destroyed – Explodes! result, a
vehicle comes into contact with impassable terrain, the
board edge or a friendly unit? (p69)
A: The vehicle will end its move once it has come into
contact with any of the above.

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Q: If a skimmer on a large oval flying base is wrecked,
and its base is completely surrounded by enemy
models, are all embarked models killed? (p71)
A: Yes.

Q: Do units off of the table at the end of a game count
as destroyed for kill point purposes? (p91)
A: Yes.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Q: If a unit arriving by Deep Strike cannot be placed
fully on the table, must it roll on the Deep Strike
Mishap table? (p95)
A: Yes.
(Some of the above is not relevant, but I included it just for potential discrepancies.)


Based on these FAQ topics, we learn that:

1. The board edge is a finite ending point of the table. You are either on the table, or you are not.

2. Models cannot be forced off of the table, or voluntarily moved off table.

3. Vehicles that are moving on to the table and are not capable of finishing their move completely on the table, i.e., the model is not "entirely" on the table, are destroyed. Plus, units that are not completely on the table are destroyed.

The first rulebook FAQ I listed above states (in GW's inimitable fashion) that the table edge is a finite end point to the gaming area. Distances are measured to and from vehicle hulls; therefore, vehicle hulls are used when measuring to or from the finite point of the "table's edge." If the hull of any vehicle is over the table edge, it is destroyed. Further, models may not voluntarily, or involuntarily, move over the table edge, where the part that is used to measure from is over the table edge. Models with bases measure to and from the base, unless they are a vehicle, in which case they use the hull, unless there is an exception that says otherwise. There are exceptions for skimmers or flyers for hovering over terrain, embarking/disembarking, hovering over models, and assaults; however, there are no exceptions for measuring to or from the table edge, or for having part of their hull over the table edge.

Eldanar wrote:The first rulebook FAQ I listed above states (in GW's inimitable fashion) that the table edge is a finite end point to the gaming area. Distances are measured to and from vehicle hulls; therefore, vehicle hulls are used when measuring to or from the finite point of the "table's edge." If the hull of any vehicle is over the table edge, it is destroyed. Further, models may not voluntarily, or involuntarily, move over the table edge, where the part that is used to measure from is over the table edge. Models with bases measure to and from the base, unless they are a vehicle, in which case they use the hull, unless there is an exception that says otherwise. There are exceptions for skimmers or flyers for hovering over terrain, embarking/disembarking, hovering over models, and assaults; however, there are no exceptions for measuring to or from the table edge, or for having part of their hull over the table edge.

Thanks for taking the time and compiling all that. It's all thrown about in here and this needed a refresher. I agree with almost everything and especially like the 3 conclusion points. And I will attempt to point out the where you IMHO contradict yourself and restate that, 'completely onto' is determined and referenced from the base of the 'Flyer'. This doesn't break the game, nor any rules, and IMHO is what 'completely onto' refers to when discussing 'Flyers'.

You state:

Distances are measured to and from vehicle hulls; therefore, vehicle hulls are used when measuring to or from the finite point of the "table's edge."

The second is not derived from the first. I've covered this previously. Does it say at which point of the hull you measure from? I have to assume for now that you are not deriving that there's actually a measurement from the hull to the table edge. So why is it destroyed again?

there are no exceptions for measuring to or from the table edge, or for having part of their hull over the table edge.

So you can't measure from the table edge... with exception of moving on the board. Once I have done that completely with what is provided to achieve the result, Im done. You too are deriving assumptions that support your interpretations. You repeat eloquently the rules, and then mention nothing that relates to them in your final conclusion. Maybe we can find some time to put some models on the board to discus this further. Maybe it will shed some light on why somehow 'completely onto' the table is not so when my base is 'completely onto' the table.

JBW wrote:Maybe it will shed some light on why somehow 'completely onto' the table is not so when my base is 'completely onto' the table.

You're told to ignore the base. If you're using the base for anything but objectives/disembarking/or assault, then you're not ignoring the base. How can you continue to defend the position that the base defines everything that your skimmer (note, it is skimmer, not a flyer. There are no rules for flyers in standard 40K) can do, even when you're told expressly, by the rules, to ignore it.

FNP tells you to ignore an injury. Do you still take the wound on your models even though you're told to ignore it? I doubt it. You keep insisting on the base fitting, then everything is good. But you're told to ignore the base if it is not in the above situations.

You keep going back to being "completely onto the table". You ignore the base for this. There are no two ways about it. The rules do not tell you to use the skimmer's base for deployment or for measurement. The base is ignored. Pure and simple. So, therefore, to measure how you are "completely onto" the table, it must be done from the hull. If your hull is not "completely onto the table", as you've been saying, then it is an illegal move/deployment.


Short and sweet: If we're not talking about assault/disembarking/contesting objectives or being over friendly/enemy models, then leave the "base" out of the conversation. It is ignored in all instances that are not mentioned here.

For vehicles to move onto the table you have to measure from the hull up to the distance you want to move, once the vehicles movement is completed the vehicle must be completely moved onto the board, no part of the hull may be off the table. If a part of the hull is off the table the vehicle has not completely moved onto the board.

This is permission to measure to check if any part of the hull is off the board.

Referenced in the FaQ:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Since there are no rules exempting the SR/Valks from measuring to the hull(the standard for ALL vehicles) during movement, you must do that. There is also no exemption for the hull for getting on the table, so you measure to the hull again. If the hull is off the board, even in the slightest, you sailed to move your entire model on and it is destroyed.

-cgmckenzie

JBW wrote: Maybe it will shed some light on why somehow 'completely onto' the table is not so when my base is 'completely onto' the table.

As was stated above, here is your problem.

The base for a vehicle is not used ever, except to support the model, and in specific curcumstances where it has otherwise been excepted. There are numerous exceptions listed for skimmers and for flyers (assuming all flyers and not just valks and vendettas). Nowehere is the table edge referred to as a terrain feature; and nowhere is there an exception listed for not measuring the distance from the hull of a vehicle to the board edge. If any part of your hull crosses that imaginary threshold, then you have gone over it.

The problem I think from your perspective, is that GW never defines "hull;" they only say what is not considered part of the hull. So, we are left with two alternatives for determining what the hull is: we either use a common English definition, or we take the hull to be the entire model less any portions specifically mentioned as not being part of the hull.

So, to answer your question, "what part of the hull do we measure from?" Any part of the model designated as the "hull." And what constitutes the hull? The entire model less portions specifically listed as not being part of the hull.

I don't like the way that GW writes its rules because it either doesn't define terms, or it uses negative inferences to do so. We have examples of both here. I've been playing GW games for almost 20 years, and they have always written their rules like this.

The model has to be on the table. The base is only part of the model. If any part of the model, independent of that part being hull or not, is off the table, your vehicle dies. Really no room to wiggle here.

No, I'm not debating what is the hull in any way, shape, or form. Just what degree a Flyer can completely be in/on the table.

Hmmmm, I did think about something. Some of you may slap your forehead at this.

Let's assume the 'Flyer' is on the table and wants to get as close to the edge as it can. Now I can agree that you can't measure to a point off the table. And a skimmer doesn't need to pivot to move. So I can measure from any part of the hull to the board edge, and that would be how far I can move. But this still allows me be hanging over the edge in some cases, depending on point of the hull I measured from.

I get it, you say everything, I say the base. Not sure what else to say here other than we disagree. I'll just have to wait until GW fixes this with edition, or FAQ. Locally we use INAT, so maybe it will shed light on what the tournament scene might expect. NOVA OPEN Faq V3 is supposed to be released sometime soon also.

I have a feeling it will be similar to the Deff Rolla ruling.

I'm ok with either way, if my opponent feels strongly about how it will effect their game play. But I just don't see it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldanar wrote:Based on these FAQ topics, we learn that:

1. The board edge is a finite ending point of the table. You are either on the table, or you are not.

2. Models cannot be forced off of the table, or voluntarily moved off table.

3. Vehicles that are moving on to the table and are not capable of finishing their move completely on the table, i.e., the model is not "entirely" on the table, are destroyed. Plus, units that are not completely on the table are destroyed.

This is awesome by the way! But the rest of your understanding is misinterpretation IMHO. Could GW come back and say "for the guy who thinks only the base is require here's your FAQ". Absolutely. And I would move on from there with my straight edge and string and weight to find out where exactly my hull is over. But until then, I just have to say there is wiggle room in my head.

You disagree based on no actual rules, however. Youve been shown to ONLY count the base for X objects; whether you are on or off the board is not one of those X objects, therefore you cannot use the base.


Its that simple.

JBW wrote: But until then, I just have to say there is wiggle room in my head.

So, just to be clear: The rulebook tells you to ignore the base for all purposes except a few mentioned in the FAQ. But you're not ignoring the base. How is this not breaking the rules?

JBW wrote: Hmmmm, I did think about something. Some of you may slap your forehead at this.

Let's assume the 'Flyer' is on the table and wants to get as close to the edge as it can. Now I can agree that you can't measure to a point off the table. And a skimmer doesn't need to pivot to move. So I can measure from any part of the hull to the board edge, and that would be how far I can move. But this still allows me be hanging over the edge in some cases, depending on point of the hull I measured from.

I understand what you are saying. Where your argument falls apart though is that you should measure from the closest linear point, not the farthest. IIRC, there is even a reference for this in the vehicle movement rules. GW introduced this specifically back in the day (in a prior edition with slightly different rules) when people used to declare they were moving their skimmer in a circle in order to get their jink save, all while not moving their model at all. I believe this proscription was carried over into the current edition.

And before you go there, I'll go ahead and say that the rules do not allow you to pivot your model in such a way that part of it crosses the table edge either.

You are basing your interpretation on an RAI approach. I do not necesarilly disagree with your approach, in that in most instances it makes game play easier. However, as with the Nova faq, altering this specific rule causes the rules for shooting to also need to be modified; and it doesn't even address assaulting (in the rare instance when the portion off table might be closer and in range for an assaulter, whereas the portion on table is out of range).

JBW wrote:No, I'm not debating what is the hull in any way, shape, or form. Just what degree a Flyer can completely be in/on the table.

100%

That is what is required of completely to be in/on the table anything less than 100% is not completely in/on.

If the hull is off the table/past the edge, then the entire model is not on the board. Clear cut and simple.

And, btw, this is nothing like the deff rolla in the slightest. A deff rolla is not hull, not a weapon, but simply there. It is a decorative item with rules that treat it like hull in certain instances, namely ramming/tank shock. Theoretically, I could have my deff rolla hanging over the edge all day because it is not hull.

-cgmckenzie