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I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

I think that the way these planets pay their taxes is by supporting the Chapter. Providing recruits, supplying the human serf's, administering the planet on behalf of the Master. Shy of providing munitions and war gear, the human populace would essentially run the place and otherwise ease the burden placed on the Imperium if it had to provide all of this from other sources.

A chapter is responsible for its own recruitment and supply as befits their independant nature. They are a seperate entity from the actual planet. Planet still needs to pay its taxes.

Hmmmm I'm not sure about that. I think in most cases, not all, the Chapter has control over the planet with the Chapter Master serving as the official Planetary Governor. So rather than providing tithes directly to the Adeptus Terra, their mandate is to provide and support the Chapter itself.

Actually that is in direct violation of Imperial law. A Space Marine cannot command a planet. He cannot raise an army other than his chapter which is also limited by law. There was this incident called "The Great Heresy" which caused the Imperium to go on quite a binge of seperating of powers afterwards.

Again, in not sure if this is accurate at all. In response to the question of taxes, what of Fenris? Deathworld where the population is of nomadic tribesmen who view the Space Wolves as gods riding fallen stars. They have no idea of the greater universe and their place in it, the world is controlled by the Wolves who are more than happy to let the population remain as they are, holding to their mythology and savage lifestyle.

As far as Space Marines not being able to control a planet? Sorry mate but no. Marneus Calgar is the Lord of Ultramar, a system containing no less than eight habitable planets. To quote Codex Space Marines page 15. "Ultramar is the realm of the Ultramarines within the greater realm of humanity that is the Imperium. It's worlds do not pay the Imperiums tithes. Instead they contribute directly towards the upkeep of the Ultramarines Chapter. The rulers of the individual worlds of Ultamar are feudal lords of the Master of the Ultramarines"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

The worlds are classesd as Adeptus Null meaning no taxes are paid in any form. They may choose to contribute troops or materials but are not forced to do so.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A chapter is responsible for its own recruitment and supply as befits their independant nature. They are a seperate entity from the actual planet. Planet still needs to pay its taxes.

The chapter controls whatever world it is on. The world is an independant part of the Imperium and effectively another resource of the chapter.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Actually that is in direct violation of Imperial law. A Space Marine cannot command a planet. He cannot raise an army other than his chapter which is also limited by law. There was this incident called "The Great Heresy" which caused the Imperium to go on quite a binge of seperating of powers afterwards.

Space Marines cannot have permanent command of an Imperial Guard regiment or other military force. They also have no jurisdiction over other military forces and vice versa, however Imperial commanders may agree to be commanded by SM commanders or vice versa.

Kamikaze may be thinking of Fleet-based Chapters, where the planets they recruit from would not be considered Adeptus Null.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

The resources of the world go to supporting the Chapter, which is in itself fighting for the Imperium. Rather than tithing in goods or soldiers (both of which are options in the Imperium) to Terra, which would then support the Marines, the Imperium has things set up to cut out the middleman, and thus keep the Marine Chapters more functional.

nerdfest11 wrote:Again, in not sure if this is accurate at all. In response to the question of taxes, what of Fenris? Deathworld where the population is of nomadic tribesmen who view the Space Wolves as gods riding fallen stars. They have no idea of the greater universe and their place in it, the world is controlled by the Wolves who are more than happy to let the population remain as they are, holding to their mythology and savage lifestyle.

As far as Space Marines not being able to control a planet? Sorry mate but no. Marneus Calgar is the Lord of Ultramar, a system containing no less than eight habitable planets. To quote Codex Space Marines page 15. "Ultramar is the realm of the Ultramarines within the greater realm of humanity that is the Imperium. It's worlds do not pay the Imperiums tithes. Instead they contribute directly towards the upkeep of the
Ultramarines Chapter. The rulers of the individual worlds of Ultamar are feudal lords of the Master of the Ultramarines"

All comments have the footnote "except for Ultramar". Ultramar is the exception that proves the rule.

Fenris has no tithe (adeptus non I believe they call it) not because there's Space Wolves on it but because it's a useless planet. It's sparsely populated by illiterate, almost cavemen like people and permeant structures can't even be built on it.


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purplefood wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

The worlds are classesd as Adeptus Null meaning no taxes are paid in any form. They may choose to contribute troops or materials but are not forced to do so.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A chapter is responsible for its own recruitment and supply as befits their independant nature. They are a seperate entity from the actual planet. Planet still needs to pay its taxes.

The chapter controls whatever world it is on. The world is an independant part of the Imperium and effectively another resource of the chapter.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Actually that is in direct violation of Imperial law. A Space Marine cannot command a planet. He cannot raise an army other than his chapter which is also limited by law. There was this incident called "The Great Heresy" which caused the Imperium to go on quite a binge of seperating of powers afterwards.

Space Marines cannot have permanent command of an Imperial Guard regiment or other military force. They also have no jurisdiction over other military forces and vice versa, however Imperial commanders may agree to be commanded by SM commanders or vice versa.

Yes, they cannot be in permanent command of people. If they were in command of the planet they would be in permanent command of the Imperial Guard there and well, everyone.




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Jimsolo wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

The resources of the world go to supporting the Chapter, which is in itself fighting for the Imperium. Rather than tithing in goods or soldiers (both of which are options in the Imperium) to Terra, which would then support the Marines, the Imperium has things set up to cut out the middleman, and thus keep the Marine Chapters more functional.

It doesn't take an entire world to support one chapter. What if a hive world of 90 billion has a chapter based on it? All they have to do is make bolt rounds for their friendly neighborhood space marines? That's a pretty sweet deal for hive world Bob. Unfortunately that's crazy and they still have to pay a tithe. The chapter down the street is responsible for it's own upkeep.
In the grim darkness of the 41st millineum the only things that are certain are death and taxes!!!

The Imperial Guard usually don't show up on SM chapter homeworlds unless it is under siege or some kind of fortress world.

Damn, Kan must have read all the books from the Black Library

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Actually that is in direct violation of Imperial law. A Space Marine cannot command a planet. He cannot raise an army other than his chapter which is also limited by law. There was this incident called "The Great Heresy" which caused the Imperium to go on quite a binge of seperating of powers afterwards.

Except, Codex: Space Marines and 5th Edition Rulebook both state that more and more worlds and systems are being handed over to direct governance of the Astartes...

Miraclefish wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Actually that is in direct violation of Imperial law. A Space Marine cannot command a planet. He cannot raise an army other than his chapter which is also limited by law. There was this incident called "The Great Heresy" which caused the Imperium to go on quite a binge of seperating of powers afterwards.

Except, Codex: Space Marines and 5th Edition Rulebook both state that more and more worlds and systems are being handed over to direct governance of the Astartes...

It's not incredibly difficult for Astartes to manage these worlds. Often, keeping the status quo would be ensuring that no Xenos invader wipes out the entirety of the fuedals/tribesmen. Other than that, I guess they'd let the humans run free, recruit the promising ones, and maybe take pictures of particularily cool/funny medieval battles and shipping the tapes off to whatever is the equivalent of 'Imperia Funny Home Videos'.

If we're talking about worlds the Imperium actually gives two feths about, I'd be very surprised.

Ok, again I'll quote from Codex Space Marines this time with no mention of the Ultramarines. Page 52.

"A chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, with authority to act as he wishes according to his own judgement and answerable only to others of his rank. In addition to the thousand Space Marines at his command, most Chapter Masters also hold dominion over star-spanning Strike Cruisers, Navigators, Astropaths, Armorers and Planetary Defense Forces. Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors in the Emperors name."

These are direct excerpts from the current 5th edition Space Marine Codex. The evidence within the text is quite clear, most Astartes Chapter Masters rule entire worlds therefore they are, amongst many things, Planetary Governors.

In direct response to the OP, I have yet to read anything, canon or not, even hinting that Baal provides recruits for the guard. According to the latest Codex and various other literature, Baal appears to be close to being a deathworld. Irradiated deserts, nomadic people, high mortality rate, short life span, no civilisation as such. Perfect recruiting ground for an Astartes chapter but the lack of population alone would make it unsuitable for the mass recruiting required by the guard.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

The resources of the world go to supporting the Chapter, which is in itself fighting for the Imperium. Rather than tithing in goods or soldiers (both of which are options in the Imperium) to Terra, which would then support the Marines, the Imperium has things set up to cut out the middleman, and thus keep the Marine Chapters more functional.

It doesn't take an entire world to support one chapter. What if a hive world of 90 billion has a chapter based on it? All they have to do is make bolt rounds for their friendly neighborhood space marines? That's a pretty sweet deal for hive world Bob. Unfortunately that's crazy and they still have to pay a tithe. The chapter down the street is responsible for it's own upkeep.
In the grim darkness of the 41st millineum the only things that are certain are death and taxes!!!

Two things. First off, no, under normal circumstances it would not take the entire resources of a world to support a Space Marine Chapter. However, when the few circumstances arise when they do need every resource the planet can muster, the Imperium doesn't want the Space Marines to fail due to a lack of infrastructure. Elite warriors get elite treatment. Is it fair? No. Is it realistic? Oh yes.

Secondly, Space Marine Homeworlds are usually classified as tithe grade Aptus Non (not applicable), because the citizens of the world are exempt from the tithe (their resources being used to support the Marines). The tithe from that world comes not in the form of Guardsmen or food or money, but instead in Space Marine geneseed.

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aptus_Non Root Source: Warhammer 40k 3rd Edition, page 114-115.

nerdfest11 wrote:Ok, again I'll quote from Codex Space Marines this time with no mention of the Ultramarines. Page 52.

"A chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, with authority to act as he wishes according to his own judgement and answerable only to others of his rank. In addition to the thousand Space Marines at his command, most Chapter Masters also hold dominion over star-spanning Strike Cruisers, Navigators, Astropaths, Armorers and Planetary Defense Forces. Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors in the Emperors name."

These are direct excerpts from the current 5th edition Space Marine Codex. The evidence within the text is quite clear, most Astartes Chapter Masters rule entire worlds therefore they are, amongst many things, Planetary Governors.

In direct response to the OP, I have yet to read anything, canon or not, even hinting that Baal provides recruits for the guard. According to the latest Codex and various other literature, Baal appears to be close to being a deathworld. Irradiated deserts, nomadic people, high mortality rate, short life span, no civilisation as such. Perfect recruiting ground for an Astartes chapter but the lack of population alone would make it unsuitable for the mass recruiting required by the guard.

Well that's some bad depowering of The Legions by Codex Astartes (or pehaps some bad Ward writing again). By that, a Chapter Master could have an army of millions under his command.


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Jimsolo wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

The resources of the world go to supporting the Chapter, which is in itself fighting for the Imperium. Rather than tithing in goods or soldiers (both of which are options in the Imperium) to Terra, which would then support the Marines, the Imperium has things set up to cut out the middleman, and thus keep the Marine Chapters more functional.

It doesn't take an entire world to support one chapter. What if a hive world of 90 billion has a chapter based on it? All they have to do is make bolt rounds for their friendly neighborhood space marines? That's a pretty sweet deal for hive world Bob. Unfortunately that's crazy and they still have to pay a tithe. The chapter down the street is responsible for it's own upkeep.
In the grim darkness of the 41st millineum the only things that are certain are death and taxes!!!

Two things. First off, no, under normal circumstances it would not take the entire resources of a world to support a Space Marine Chapter. However, when the few circumstances arise when they do need every resource the planet can muster, the Imperium doesn't want the Space Marines to fail due to a lack of infrastructure. Elite warriors get elite treatment. Is it fair? No. Is it realistic? Oh yes.

Secondly, Space Marine Homeworlds are usually classified as tithe grade Aptus Non (not applicable), because the citizens of the world are exempt from the tithe (their resources being used to support the Marines). The tithe from that world comes not in the form of Guardsmen or food or money, but instead in Space Marine geneseed.

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aptus_Non Root Source: Warhammer 40k 3rd Edition, page 114-115.

I'm still not seeing anything that states a well-to-do-world that happens to house a chapter is tax exempt. Hive planet Bob for example. It's a waste to not tap its industrial might.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tithe_Grade

"Space Marine homeworlds do not normally have tithes, and are given the tithe grade Aptus Non."


*quoted from the link in my previous post*

"Aptus Non (also referred to as Adeptus Non) is a tithe grade used by the Imperium's Administratum, meaning not applicable. The Aptus Non grade means that no tithe is required to be paid."


Space Marine Homeworlds are normally classified as Aptus Non, and the Aptus Non class doesn't have to pay the tithe. Ergo, Space Marine Homeworld are usually exempt from tithes, save for the percentage of their geneseed which they tithe back to Terra.

Yes usually. But Space Marine worlds are usually backwaters. If they're on a lucrative world they should still have to contribute to the Imperium in the usual fashion.

Kam, just face it, you're wrong. Now leave me post alone, unless answering MY question! Thank you.

d.fear wrote:Kam, just face it, you're wrong. Now leave me post alone, unless answering MY question! Thank you.

Dude chill out.
Rule #1 is always in effect.

d.fear wrote:Kam, just face it, you're wrong. Now leave me post alone, unless answering MY question! Thank you.

Uh no, I don't think I am. That's the point of a forum with discussion.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes usually. But Space Marine worlds are usually backwaters. If they're on a lucrative world they should still have to contribute to the Imperium in the usual fashion.

They can. The tax system simply means they don't have to pay taxes. Usually if a world capable of that and doing well enough it can export things it will. If it's also an SM chapter homeworld they will probably use the resources to gain closer ties with the Mechanicus and then get more rare stuff like terminator suits and land raiders.

purpleflood, RUle #2

d.fear wrote:purpleflood, RUle #2

It is on topic.
He is discussing a relevant topic to the original.
At any rate someone breaking Rule #2 does not allow someone else to break Rule #1, OP or not.

Thank you Purple. You see d.fear, we are attempting to answer your question by having a forum. That's how it works. If you feel you have the answer and no more debate is needed you may request a thread lock from the moderators.

Okay, so you are saying the 'normally' is going to apply to those Chapters which make their homes on Hive Worlds?

Fair enough, I can see that. That seems to be a reasonable hypothesis. Is there anything in the source material to support it? Even if a Hive World DOES tithe to the Imperium despite having a Space Marine Chapter, it seems likely they would choose to tithe in bodies rather than food or coin, making the issue of Imperial Guard regiments from Space Marine Homeworlds more likely.

Jimsolo wrote:Okay, so you are saying the 'normally' is going to apply to those Chapters which make their homes on Hive Worlds?

Fair enough, I can see that. That seems to be a reasonable hypothesis. Is there anything in the source material to support it? Even if a Hive World DOES tithe to the Imperium despite having a Space Marine Chapter, it seems likely they would choose to tithe in bodies rather than food or coin, making the issue of Imperial Guard regiments from Space Marine Homeworlds more likely.

I'm saying that Chapters normally are based on crapholes like Fenris, Baal and Nocturne which would be adeptus non anyway. But if it's from a non hellhole there's no reason why it can't be tithed also.

Check out this non-craptastic Astartes homeworld for example: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mundus_Planus

Jimsolo wrote:Okay, so you are saying the 'normally' is going to apply to those Chapters which make their homes on Hive Worlds?

Fair enough, I can see that. That seems to be a reasonable hypothesis. Is there anything in the source material to support it? Even if a Hive World DOES tithe to the Imperium despite having a Space Marine Chapter, it seems likely they would choose to tithe in bodies rather than food or coin, making the issue of Imperial Guard regiments from Space Marine Homeworlds more likely.

Not much to support it but many SM chapter play at politics and are alligned with another faction inside the imperium so it makes sense IMO...

It has been clearly stated via multiple sources that Astartes homeworlds are classified Adeptus Non. We know from multiple sources that there are approximately 1000 Astartes Chapters, we also know that not all of these chapters have homeworlds. Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and Black Templars are but a few space bound Chapters. It has also been stated that there are in excess of 1,000,000 human settled planets within the Imperium of Man. For the Adeptus of Terra to allow a planet, regardless of natural resources, exemption from Imperial tithes so it can focus on providing support for an elite fighting unit seems to be a win for all. The Imperium doesn't have to expand it's stretched resources to provide the basic logistics for a Chapter and in return, they get a fully functioning fighting unit capable of deploying into multiple war-zones and the firepower to annihilate an entire planet.