Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And the bonus is that these are mostly feudal/tribal worlds, whose contribution would be minimal in any case.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mundus_Planus

Okay, Kam, you keep changing your argument, so what is it now? Last I checked, you were talking about Hive Worlds, (and all their abundant resources) not a world of warring tribal barbarians, which doesn't seem like it's got a lot of industrial might for the Imperium to tap. Now, I grant that you are correct that the White Scars homeworld pays a tithe, but where does it say that they were forced to do so? Seems far more reasonable to me to assume that Mundus Planus is supplying a Guard regiment or two voluntarily than being forced to give up a fraction of their tiny little potato harvest.

I'm not changing my arguement. My arguement is that the administratum literally takes into account thousands of things when determining a planets tithe grade and the presence of a chapter is just one of them. A big one, but just one.
Since most Astartes homeworlds would have been adeptus non anyway it may appear that they all are but that is not the case.

It is clearly stated in fluff that Chapter Worlds are Adaptus Non, so pay no tithes (bar the geneseed tithe).

It is clearly stated in fluff that most Chapter Worlds are either feral/death/fuedal worlds that produce nearly nothing but hardy/warrior humans.

It is clearly stated in fluff that a Chapter controls their Chapter World completely, they are not influenced/controlled by any other department of the IoM.

New chapters being given established 'useful' worlds is very rare, even during the 2nd founding. Ancient hive/bastion/forge worlds are only occupied as Chapter Worlds if a primarch grew up on one and even they they come under the soul ownership of the chapter.

Fleet based chapters have either ownership of a planet or have honour rights to recruit from certain worlds (IF recruit from Necromunda) or hey recruit from worlds they have fought on (BT).

As already stated as answer to the OP, Baal is a hell-hole with a tiny population (of which a large amount are mutants). They do not have anywhere near enough population to raise IG forces.

Where is all this clearly stated and what about Mundus Planus?

Index astates, the fluff of GW created chapters, codex space marines.

As already stated using first founding worlds as examples is not a good idea as they will always be special cases as the founding of the chapter world had nothing to do with the Adaptus Terra as it didn't exist at the time. As your link showed it mentions that it is kept in a state of contant tribalism and war, with the added bonus of a giant killer worm infestation, so it is a hellhole anyway.

It's still tithed.

So you're saying that the multiple different sources that have been cited to you are...what? Lying? Trying to trick you? (And incidentally, you're changing you're argument yet again.) First off, figure out if you're trying to tell us that Space Marine Chapter worlds indeed DO have to pay the Imperial tithe, or if you're trying to say that Space Marines can't have control of a planet at all, or if you're trying to tell us that Hive Worlds are the exception to the rule about Imperial tithes, or if worlds with a high degree of industrial might do not receive the normal exemption from tithing. Incidentally, while everyone agrees that Mundus Planus is indeed a tithing world (as is Ultramar) it doesn't support ANY of the multiple different arguments you've tried to make in this thread.

Second off, Bluntman and I have repeatedly provided you sources which weigh against all the arguments you have made. The only source you have provided doesn't support any of your arguments. So I ask again, do you have a single source of background material to back up your claim? I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong if you can.

Well Ivé checked out Lexcicanum as well and of all the Chapter Planets listed (not including traitor legions) with the exception of Mundus Planus, all are listed as Adeptus Non. Now I understand that Lexcicanum is not the be all and end all of 40k fact however I have provided multiple as written extracts from 5th edition Space Marine Codex where it CLEARLY states that not only do Chapters control and govern planets, but those planets provide for the Chapter in exchange for tax exemption, hence the tithe grade of Adeptus Non.

I'm not making this up, I'm not changing facts to suit my own beliefs and I'm not arguing for the sake of it. These are facts as written within this fictitious universe.

Jimsolo wrote:So you're saying that the multiple different sources that have been cited to you are...what? Lying? Trying to trick you? (And incidentally, you're changing you're argument yet again.) First off, figure out if you're trying to tell us that Space Marine Chapter worlds indeed DO have to pay the Imperial tithe, or if you're trying to say that Space Marines can't have control of a planet at all, or if you're trying to tell us that Hive Worlds are the exception to the rule about Imperial tithes, or if worlds with a high degree of industrial might do not receive the normal exemption from tithing. Incidentally, while everyone agrees that Mundus Planus is indeed a tithing world (as is Ultramar) it doesn't support ANY of the multiple different arguments you've tried to make in this thread.

Second off, Bluntman and I have repeatedly provided you sources which weigh against all the arguments you have made. The only source you have provided doesn't support any of your arguments. So I ask again, do you have a single source of background material to back up your claim? I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong if you can.

Jesus Christ people. All I've said is "some space marine homeworlds pay a tithe" and then provided an example of that very thing. In your words is that fluff "Lying? trying to trick you?"
To quote you Jim you said "Space Marine homeworlds are usually aptus non". Usually being the key word there. Is not the inverse of the statement Some homeworlds pay a tithe?

This crap about how I said hypothetically a hive world would not be exempt but then found a rural world that was definately not exempt somehow disproves my original point about the hive world or is me changing my arguement: like wtf man? Do you not see that it actually reinforces my point rather than somehow disproves it?

I don't see why you two guys are actually getting upset about this.

So in summary my (apparently insane) supposition is "Some worlds that host a chapter may pay a tithe" and then provided an example. Please calm down and don't put words in my mouth.

Incidentally, Solutio Prima, as a tithe grade, is really, really low. There's only two grades below it (out of 9), and one of the two grades below it is "absolutely nothing". I'd be amazed if the White Scars' homeworld exported anything more than horse-flesh, glue, and motorcycle parts.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think chapter worlds are exempt from tithes. Some of the orginal Legion worlds may be from tradition but I don't see why having a Chapter on your planet means you don't have to pay taxes.

Don't see any usually or sometimes anywhere here.

Later on in the thread, you emphatically stated that Space Marine homeworlds were not exempt from tithes. You later edited that statement out and are now claiming that your current argument has always been the same. I notice that you went back and edited almost every post of yours in this thread to conceal the several changes you have made to your hypothesis.

If you're going to change your theory, that's cool, just acknowledge the fact that your initial assessment was wrong. If you change your previous posts and then try to claim that they'd always been that way, then you become significantly less credible. I'm hardly trying to put words in your mouth, just call you to task on the ones you actually wrote.

Oh my god Jim what is happening to you? It's like someone has highjacked your account. My posts are not edited except for automatically appended posts which you simply get from making two posts in a row. To even accuse me something like that is just scary paranoia. I don't actually care about toy soldiers that much guy. If that's where you want to go then we really have nothing more to say to each other.

Psienesis wrote:Incidentally, Solutio Prima, as a tithe grade, is really, really low. There's only two grades below it (out of 9), and one of the two grades below it is "absolutely nothing". I'd be amazed if the White Scars' homeworld exported anything more than horse-flesh, glue, and motorcycle parts.

I wish i had the space to sig this...

At any rate can we all calm down people?
The MODquisition sees all remember?

I'd debate that last point.

iproxtaco wrote:I'd debate that last point.

What, the bit about horse-flesh and glue? Or the bit about the MODquisition seeing all?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I'd debate that last point.

What, the bit about horse-flesh and glue? Or the bit about the MODquisition seeing all?

The MODquisition seeing all. I had a particularly nasty run-in with a poster over the Space Wolves. Lets just say that it was below the standard I usually see from all the Mods on the forum.

On the question of Calgar giving orders Vs the Commissar. Commissar wins hands down.

God of War: Marneus Calgar can choose to pass or fail any morale checks he is called to make.

Summay Execution: If the Commissar's unit fails a morale test he will summarily execute the squads current commander - this is the model in the squad with the highest leadership value.

An Imperial Guard Commissar, deadliest sonuva***** in the Imperium.

There is also the fact that the Ultramarines follow the Codex Astartes, as it was written by Roboute Guilliman. This means that they follow the 'seperation of power' as described by the codex.

This means that any regiment given over to the IG, is not under the command of the Ultramarines, if it was a PDF then yes Calgar would be in charge but PDFs and the IG are different organisations.

Compel wrote:On the question of Calgar giving orders Vs the Commissar. Commissar wins hands down.

God of War: Marneus Calgar can choose to pass or fail any morale checks he is called to make.

Summay Execution: If the Commissar's unit fails a morale test he will summarily execute the squads current commander - this is the model in the squad with the highest leadership value.

An Imperial Guard Commissar, deadliest sonuva***** in the Imperium.

If a unit chooses to pass if they lose combat do they still have to take armour saves like a fearless unit?

BluntmanDC wrote:There is also the fact that the Ultramarines follow the Codex Astartes, as it was written by Roboute Guilliman. This means that they follow the 'seperation of power' as described by the codex.

This means that any regiment given over to the IG, is not under the command of the Ultramarines, if it was a PDF then yes Calgar would be in charge but PDFs and the IG are different organisations.

If you are talking about the Ultramar PDFs then yes, however I don't see why you think Marneus Calgar would be able to walk onto any planet he likes and sieze control of a PDF from the Planetary Governor or relevant authorities. True PDF and IG regiments are different organisitions (though in essence very similar) but neither technically have to follow the leadership of a Chapter Master over another relevant authority.

That said, the unofficial god-like authority a Chapter Master would hold is likely more than enough to convince the human forces to fall in line.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:There is also the fact that the Ultramarines follow the Codex Astartes, as it was written by Roboute Guilliman. This means that they follow the 'seperation of power' as described by the codex.

This means that any regiment given over to the IG, is not under the command of the Ultramarines, if it was a PDF then yes Calgar would be in charge but PDFs and the IG are different organisations.

If you are talking about the Ultramar PDFs then yes, however I don't see why you think Marneus Calgar would be able to walk onto any planet he likes and sieze control of a PDF from the Planetary Governor or relevant authorities. True PDF and IG regiments are different organisitions (though in essence very similar) but neither technically have to follow the leadership of a Chapter Master over another relevant authority.

That said, the unofficial god-like authority a Chapter Master would hold is likely more than enough to convince the human forces to fall in line.

I should have made it clear that the term PDF ment an Ultramar PDF, PDFs are unique to each planet, they do not come under a single command group as each is controlled and organised by the local governing body, PDF is just a catch all term for that type of group.

As an aside if Calgar was to step onto it is most likely he would take control/be given control seeing as that world would be in a gak ton of trouble (seeing as planets only see space marines when they are there to either defend or destroy them).

Its possible.

In the 40k rulebook for this ediditon it says that all planets in the imperium are to raise either IG regiments or planetary militia of some sort. So yes its possible

Nicholas wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:That has the makings for a conflict of interest story. What happens when the Lord Commander General Poobah of the Guard tells the Ultramar 2167th to do one thing, but Calgar politely suggests that they do something quite different?

They do what Lord Calgar tells them to do.

Ask yourself the question, Who would you listen to?

Calgar punched a Gods face off.

Id listen to that guy.