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Phototoxin wrote:I've also stopped for the same reasons. It's not as fun as it was or 40k is (and I hated 4th edition 40k)

Warmahordes is mtg with minatures. Get your uber combo off first and win, if not you're open to counterattack. Loose your general = autoloose? WTF??!@¢BBQ^∑! Power cree is also a big issue as is cost.

Malifaux looks interesting but it would mean a larger investment. I think I'll stick to 40k.

Please explain the statement in BOLD?

I do not see how a game based around crews of 12 models or less can involve a larger investment?

Assuming you do not sell your WFB/40k armies, you can get started in Malifaux and Warmachine for less than $AUD 100, which is usually cheaper in other countries.

AvatarForm wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I've also stopped for the same reasons. It's not as fun as it was or 40k is (and I hated 4th edition 40k)

Warmahordes is mtg with minatures. Get your uber combo off first and win, if not you're open to counterattack. Loose your general = autoloose? WTF??!@¢BBQ^∑! Power creep is also a big issue as is cost.

Malifaux looks interesting but it would mean a larger investment. I think I'll stick to 40k.

Please explain the statement in BOLD?

I do not see how a game based around crews of 12 models or less can involve a larger investment?

Assuming you do not sell your WFB/40k armies, you can get started in Malifaux and Warmachine for less than $AUD 100, which is usually cheaper in other countries.

I'm actually trading a few unwanted Warmachine figures for some Malifaux crews.

As for the whole 'caster kill' problem people have with Warmachine/Hordes? I'd suggest you read the http://privateerpress.com/files/Official%20Steamroller%202011%20Rules.pdf. If you head down past the 16 (16!) scenarios given to you, there is a variant section, where you can alter the scenario rules so that Caster-kill is not an auto-win condition. As for power creep, I don't see it. Since every faction gets something new in each release, and older units are just as effective as brand new ones, I don't really see where the 'power creep' is in the game.

A friend from Maelstrom still plays 8th and he actually enjoys it more, however...big however...

He insists just on a no-comp level it is fun. The randomness of the game is what makes it fun in its' own way, it's not trying to be uber tactical war game of doom. On the comp scene he said it is very different and really does go down to pure luck and hardly anything to do with tactics so it has lost a lot of the proper tactician wargammers, ironically as fantasy was always more about tactics and what not more than 40k. Seems it has swung over.

FoW is good tactically, I'm having a lot of fun with that. Just started Infinity and from what I can tell so far that will get really tactical too.

Phototoxin wrote:Malifaux looks interesting but it would mean a larger investment.

30-60$ for a playable army, rules as an official, legal free download. That's devinitely not a larger investment.

Highly recommend Kings of War if you're unhappy with Fantasy, the rules offer something new and highly tactical, the army lists are well-balanced.

Check the link in my sig for more info.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:WAnybody else feel the same? Is 40k worth getting into? I've only ever played 1 or 2 games in 20 years. Will I be just as disillusioned with 40k as I am with fantasy?

Anybody recommened any other games systems, preferably one where skill is a big factor?

I would say you will quickly be as disillusioned by 40K. If anything, it takes even less skill to play as you don't have to maneuver in blocks. On the other hand, you don't have crazy magic that can decide the game with a single roll. Both games are essentially just an exercise in rolling lots of dice, with internal and external balance of the armies completely out of whack. GW makes models, the rules are a distant secondary consideration.

For games that require more skill/have a more balanced competitive environment, I would recommend Warmachine/Hordes. I hear good things about Flames of War, too.

Phototoxin wrote:I've also stopped for the same reasons. It's not as fun as it was or 40k is (and I hated 4th edition 40k)

Warmahordes is mtg with minatures. Get your uber combo off first and win, if not you're open to counterattack. Loose your general = autoloose? WTF??!@¢BBQ^∑! Power cree is also a big issue as is cost.

While the MTG comparison is not too far off with how you have to combo models for best effect, you are utterly wrong on pretty much every other point. Far more goes into deciding victory than who gets a combo off first, you could have 80% of your army annihilated and still pull out a win. If you have trouble keeping your caster alive, you are failing to grasp the concept of the game (pretty much everyone's first loss in Warmachine is sticking their caster out and getting them killed, a valuable lesson). No one bitches about Chess, "Lose my king = auto-lose? WTF? blahblahblah!". The charge of power creep is ridiculous when some of the most powerful models are from PRIME. Cost, both for starting up to get a playable army and expanding later for more variety of play is far less than 40K, much less Fantasy.

Omegus wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Anybody else feel the same? Is 40k worth getting into? I've only ever played 1 or 2 games in 20 years. Will I be just as disillusioned with 40k as I am with fantasy?

Anybody recommend any other games systems, preferably one where skill is a big factor?

-Warmachine/Hordes - combos, tactics, skill, Chess-like win conditions
-Flames of War - favors balanced lists, no 'power armies' (you'd think a list with 6-8 Tiger 1s would be unstoppable, but they'll quickly be put down by infantry), tactics, positioning.
-Malifaux - knowing when the 'cheat fate' and when to hold off, combos between models, purchasing more models = less power for your Master, card deck allows for 'card counting' in some cases, especially when you get down to barely a few cards left
-Infinity - ARO! models cannot move/shoot with impunity, as return fire/reactions from opposing models (and sometimes more than 1) means running out into the open will get you gunned down
-Ancients/Napoleonic warfare - take your pick of era and rules set. Most try to be a realistic as possible, so (if you're going Napoleonic, for example), picking up something like Osprey Publishing's French Napoleonic Infantry Tactics 1792-1815 are actually worthwhile reads

I've quit WFB as well, but I'm hanging on to my armies 'cause I love the models and hope that some day they'll have decent rules.

Most of my club plays fantasy and prolly always will. I was always more of a 40k fan but lately I'm liking fantasy's models better. Just something about seeing a fully painted fantasy army with ranks and ranks of troops and big monsters running around. That said, it's really becoming a chore to get an army done :( I don't know why I always end up picking horde armies.....

I agree the games can get long and dull, 40K just seems more fun, but not as fun as Dust Tactics :p

Have to agree, try branching out to non GW games. Most of the time theres genius effort and passion poured in

Omegus wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:Warmahordes is mtg with minatures. Get your uber combo off first and win, if not you're open to counterattack. Loose your general = autoloose? WTF??!@¢BBQ^∑! Power cree is also a big issue as is cost.

The charge of power creep is ridiculous when some of the most powerful models are from PRIME. Cost, both for starting up to get a playable army and expanding later for more variety of play is far less than 40K, much less Fantasy.

I think this point bears re-iteration. If you want a game system with almost no power creep and a strong likelihood that your army will survive competitively intact for a couple years, Warmachine/Hordes is about as reliable as it gets.

If you want to see ranks of soldiers in pretty uniforms and maneuver blocks of troops, try Black Powder for historical gaming. It is fun.

For SciFi there are a ton of skirmish level games. You just have to be willing to investigate, purchase, and be the main conductor of games to get a following started. Most people would rather put up with crap rules and not make any other effort sadly...

+1 to Flames of War. The ruleset is very nice and highly tactical, and as others have said, the rules award balanced armies. It has to be said that battlefront has dropped the ball with one list in early war though, so it is not perfect, but one overpowered list out of a hundred or so is a pretty good track-record, and lightyears ahead of GW's track-record

wanax wrote:If you want to see ranks of soldiers in pretty uniforms and maneuver blocks of troops, try Black Powder for historical gaming. It is fun.

Or if you're more of a non gunpowder person then Hail Caesar is great

Both are basically updated versions of warmaster

I think the problem people have with switching is the investment. And not just money, but time. Even if another game is cheaper, you still have to get the rules, build an army, paint it up, and then in a lot of cases convince your friends to do the same.

This is one of the reasons I like Dust Tactics.

Models look really great and are pre-built and pre-primed, big time saver there. You buy a box of men, and it's got all the models you need for that unit, no extra junk you won't use, no need to buy another box just to have a normal unit (like WFB boxes of 10 men when you need 20-30 for a unit that can do something useful). So you buy a box of Laser Grenadiers and that's it. They are ready to play right out of the box, and you can go back and paint them up if you want. If you like converting stuff, just take them apart and get as creative as you want to be.

It's a board game, and the core set comes with all you need and 2 small armies, so you can easily introduce the game to your friends without them having to invest $500 or more just to play with you. You can even split the set with a friend to save cash. And if board-style games aren't your thing, it's pretty easy to adapt to normal tabletop game if you have half a brain. They're developing official table top rules now too but I dunno when they'll be done.

Overall it's a great system, games are quick and fun and the models look really cool, definitely a game to get if you love walkers and dreadnought kinda things.

I love playing Fantasy cause I don't know the Rules very well is I can't complain about how much better the old ones are.

I've decided to pretty much give up the whole hobby to be honest. None of my friends are into the hobby, there are no gaming clubs where I live, and the alternative is to go to a GW and stand beside a bunch of kids. Becuase of my age, that would just be wrong!

This flames of war thing sounds interesting. With it being WW2 I could rope people in.

So, If you wanted to get started with FOW battles set in 1940, all I need is the rule book and the early war book? and of course some models. Is it as simple as that? Or am I missing something? Years of GW buying means I'm never sure if I've got everything!

Fantasy as the current rule set stands is indeed not that great, but as I've said a few times recently, if you want to make it fun, play a 1000 point game where you keep the unit sizes down, use only the first three spells in the lore and limit each person to 1 special and 1 rare.

Another way around the deep ranked steadfast nonsense, is to state that any unit can't be deeper than it is wide. It kind of makes sense too, as troops aren't really going to sit there in orderly queues of five files when they could be breaking round the sides of the combat to get at the enemy.

Naturally all of the above necessitates people who are willing to tone it down.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So, If you wanted to get started with FOW battles set in 1940, all I need is the rule book and the early war book? and of course some models. Is it as simple as that? Or am I missing something? Years of GW buying means I'm never sure if I've got everything!

Yup, that should be all that you need for early war

Yeah I think GW's games work great for small games. But they need to sell more models so they market it as you needing huge units, so people end up thinking they need a 3000 pt army to play. Some of my funnest games were like a whole 500 pts.

kenshin620 wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So, If you wanted to get started with FOW battles set in 1940, all I need is the rule book and the early war book? and of course some models. Is it as simple as that? Or am I missing something? Years of GW buying means I'm never sure if I've got everything!

Yup, that should be all that you need for early war

Well, that depends!

Battlefront will soon be releasing the next Early War book - I think it's called Hellfire & Back - to cover fighting in the desert.

But Blitzkrieg looks like a lot of fun. I play Brits in Late War, so the British Armoured Regiment and Rifle Company boxes look really interesting.

If you're looking to draw people in, I'd recommend an escalation league to start up. Beginning at 600 points, you advance to whatever 'end goal' you're looking for - 1500, for example. So, it'd be 600, 800, 1000, 1250, 1500, over however long a period you choose.

Rule of life 40k beats warhammer fantasy

Early war for me. Matilda tanks and boys anti-tank rifles! yeah! take that adolf

But thanks for the advice, infinity. I've been looking at the wayland games prices and it's far more appealing than splashing out on GW stuff.

I felt the same way as you. I have not touched WFB for like 3 years now. 40K is getting like that with me.

Warmachine has me now.

smeugal fan wrote:Rule of life 40k beats warhammer fantasy

Strange that a few years ago ever time I asked this question it was always the reverse

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Early war for me. Matilda tanks and boys anti-tank rifles! yeah! take that adolf

But thanks for the advice, infinity. I've been looking at the wayland games prices and it's far more appealing than splashing out on GW stuff.

Just remember that friends don't let friends play the BAR (british armoured regiment). It might get better with the new early war book, but as of now, it is the only broken list in FoW

Phototoxin wrote: Malifaux looks interesting but it would mean a larger investment. I think I'll stick to 40k.

I started Malifaux recently. It cost me less then $100 for everything. The nice thing is that it uses cards instead of dice, which means that if you draw all crap there will be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Phototoxin wrote:I've also stopped for the same reasons. It's not as fun as it was or 40k is (and I hated 4th edition 40k)

Warmahordes is mtg with minatures. Get your uber combo off first and win, if not you're open to counterattack. Loose your general = autoloose? WTF??!@¢BBQ^∑! Power cree is also a big issue as is cost.

Malifaux looks interesting but it would mean a larger investment. I think I'll stick to 40k.

Sir, I would like to refer you to page 5.

I didn't quit in a strop or anything, but I wasn't enthused enough to play another game since the first. Magic just seems too powerful.

All the long timer players I am close to in my area quit. They really hate the new version.

I quit the last one because I didn't think much of it, no way I'm really going to try the new one.

Storm of magic made me think LOLWUT? Wasn't magic overdone BEFORE this edition...