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Blood Lord Soldado wrote:Would it make me the internet best sportsman???

I'm a little too drunk right now from a ridiculous week at work to say what should probably be said, so let me just take a stab at what comes to mind.

I haven't read your blog, so take this as it applies.

1. Are you expressing thoughts or giving advice? If you're commenting your personal thoughts on each of them...okie-dokie. If you're comparing them to each other, without any basis of comparison, except what others have already done...shame on you.

2. Do you play Orks? Are you successful with them? By successful, I mean "Do you beat the piss out of everyone you play against with them?" Or some degree of that. It is a disservice to give advice to people if you don't have experience upon which to platform that advice. It is *also* a disservice to give advice if you aren't an expert in what you're giving advice about. That's not to say that you may not do so...just that you are a bad person for doing it.

Does any of this apply to you? I have no idea - I haven't read your blog. Therefore, I'm hypocritically giving advice to the advice-giver, when I haven't read the relevant content required to be able to give advice about it.

1. Commentary. They are definitely just my thoughts and I try to refrain from giving people advice unless I know them in real life, as internet advice from strangers seems silly. With that being said, I am from So Cal, and you know the gaming community here is pretty large and pretty capable.

2. I do beat the piss out of people pretty regularly with Orks, yes. Im not entirely sure of my W/L/D record, but I play in a weekly league with 2 games a week, plus as many RTT as I can get to. I'm going hopefully battle your homeboy Hulksmash next weekend at the Bay Area Open. With, that being said, I guess I can go as far to say I travel for tournament play, but not the extent of yourself or Hulk.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Alerian wrote:This is the point I made to the OP. Become and expert on Orks. Study them, yes, but more importantly play them - all of them. Learn their strengths and weaknesses firsthand. Experiment with them. Then, you can honestly give real advice that will be both reputable and usefull.

Yep. More of this on the forums here would result in less posting, more reading, more eduction, less trash, less static, more interest, a broader spectrum of people being exposed to intelligent conversation, global peace, and GW lowering their prices.

Dash you wrote an Ork tacktica about a year and a half and you've been playing for like 3 years. Had you played with every unit alot before you compiled your tacktics?

It is an improvement up from the first one, but still I have to agree with Alerian, KingCracker and Dash. It really does seem like you don't know what you are talking about in some places. The parts about the bigmek, nobz and burnaz are quite well written, and only missing minor things('eavy armor and cybork is a waste of points), but MANz, Tank Bustas and Kommandoz are nothing but an echo of what people tout who read the codex and continued playing their beakies. Also, your Lootaz overview seems half-assed.

MANz in small units are a great unit, especially to trukk or Kult of Speed lists, providing extra trukks and something for the opponent to really worry about, at low costs.
Tank Bustas aren't as easily countered as everyone claims, that legendary landspeeder kiting them all game will be a smoldering wreck after one turn. They will only ever waste their shots, if there is an 24" bubble around them without a single vehicle, which I wouldn't call getting controlled by the opponent. Also 12 rokkits are going to kill anything with AV12 or less, even at BS2, and bomb squigs have a good chance of destroying a second vehicle in one turn.
That Ghazzy+Snikrot thing is something I'm really sick of seeing. Not on the table top, but from being advised as the holy grail and absolutely unbeatable. Sure, if you opponent doesn't know this combo and doesn't know how to handle it, he is going to lose some stuff. But even the Trojan Horse hasn't been winning wars in quite some time now. There is no reason to ever use Ghazghkull Thrakka for this trick. A regular warboss or the mad dok do just as much damage, cost half the price, you don't have to hold back on your Waagh! if your reserve rolls hate you, the unit is not S&P(and because of that, doesn't automatically die on tripple '1'), and you handicap yourself for playing most of the game with 500 points less. Also Ghazghkull Thrakka is great for killing stuff that neither nobz nor boyz can handle without casualties, if you reserve him and throw him away in that suicide run, you waste another one of his strenghts.

Your blog really reads like you are giving advice, not like stating your opinion. Maybe you should make it sound more like your opinion, especially by using the word "I" more than you do. If you want to give advice, stay with stuff you know, and don't write a series about an entire codex if you haven't played most of the units. Write a series about your army and models you played. Magister187 is simply wrong. I can't talk for other armies, but you can't write about any orks without actually putting the unit down on the table and do something with it, your tactica demonstrates this perfectly. The SAG is a scary and effective gun, not just a fun unit, a bigmek with a PK is good at killing vehicles in the late game, lootaz work just as well in fives as in units of 15, and burnaz die easily in close combat. Half of your current article has this experience and is a good read. The other half is worthless repetition of internet 'wisdom'.

If you don't own tankbustas, simply pick up all rokkit-wielding boyz you own and field those as tank bustas. If you don't have a warphead, proxy a bigmek as one. Borrow stuff from other people playing orks, just for the fun of testing it. But don't think you understand a unit because you have seen it in the codex. You won't find me giving in-depth advice on kan walls either, because I dislike the army style and thus rarely play it. While I have a pretty good idea what to do with it, I don't know everything about it, beginning at trivial things like how to deploy. Giving bad advice leads to people wasting their money on the wrong models, making them lose tourneys and generally preventing them from doing better in the game. Before doing the next part about your series, proxy or borrow all those units you want to write about. If you can't, simply don't give advice about them. Nobody wants to read that stormboyz are an over-costed junk unit. We can read that every day on any random warhammer forum. People want to read how to use them as a counter-charge unit and what the pro and cons of Zagstruk are.

And don't forget, since Rokkits are an Assault weapon, they actually have a 30" threat radius. So that's 30" in which every vehicle is in danger of getting hit, and 12" (move and charge) in which every vehicle in in danger of being wrecked, because they have Tankbusta bombs, Tankhammers, maybe a Powerklaw.

Grimgob wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Alerian wrote:This is the point I made to the OP. Become and expert on Orks. Study them, yes, but more importantly play them - all of them. Learn their strengths and weaknesses firsthand. Experiment with them. Then, you can honestly give real advice that will be both reputable and usefull.

Yep. More of this on the forums here would result in less posting, more reading, more eduction, less trash, less static, more interest, a broader spectrum of people being exposed to intelligent conversation, global peace, and GW lowering their prices.

Dash you wrote an Ork tacktica about a year and a half and you've been playing for like 3 years. Had you played with every unit alot before you compiled your tacktics?

You're talking about this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347713.page#2463571

That's not a tactica. There aren't unit suggestions. There *are* thematic suggestions. The only units I spoke of when to use were shoota boys and slugga boyz - something that I'm quite comfortable talking about.

Thus I find your question contextually irrelevant. What I wrote was general ork advice - and I had played Orks long enough (and been successful enough with them) to feel quite comfortable giving it.

Post deleated due to pointlessness

So, what's your point?

FYI op but Snikrot's blades is reroll hits not wounds, also i dont belive you can give a single Nob stickbombs, its a mob upgrade.

You Can't have only some nobs take stikkbombs. Its an nobs for 1pt per model

BRB Pg36 - Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal.

Nowhere in the item selection or codex does it say that the entire unite has to take grenades.

@Lepuke - You are right, I brain farted there.

Blood Lord Soldado wrote:

Nowhere in the item selection or codex does it say that the entire unite has to take grenades.
.

Really????? Are you sure?????
Ork Codex, Nobz entry, p.98 "the ENTIRE MOB may take:"
You are wrong. It is all or nothing. Please, read the codex next time, before arguing.

P.S. The Boyz entry on p. 100 reads the same way... "entire mob"


edited for clarity and page numbers.

Cool thing about that is with the new FAQ's if the IC has them it confirs it to the entire squad (we finnaly have a reason for stikkbombs on Ghazzy).

Grimgob wrote:Cool thing about that is with the new FAQ's if the IC has them it confirs it to the entire squad (we finnaly have a reason for stikkbombs on Ghazzy).

I dont think thats correct based on the assault grenade rules:

Pg36 - Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal.

Its based on models not units, how is the FAQ worded for the IC grenades rule?

Lepuke wrote:

Grimgob wrote:Cool thing about that is with the new FAQ's if the IC has them it confirs it to the entire squad (we finnaly have a reason for stikkbombs on Ghazzy).

I dont think thats correct based on the assault grenade rules:

Pg36 - Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal.

Its based on models not units, how is the FAQ worded for the IC grenades rule?

Well, i know that in the GK FAQ, they ruled that rad and psychotroke 'nades held by an IC grant the affect to the entire squad. I don't kow about other armies, but I don't see why it should be different.

Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad,
psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects
to work or is just one model being equiped with them
enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

The GK FAQ does not mention any BRB grenades.

Well, i guess you could look at it that way. I don't see why frag and krak should be different.

Holy Emperors light Robin... Quick to the YMDC/ INAT submission thread!

loota boy wrote:Well, i guess you could look at it that way. I don't see why frag and krak should be different.

lol, Krak grenades, whats next melta bombs?

Look at the point values, its obvious the intent of psyk-out and/or psychotroke was 1 model is enough, its a unit debuff, if anything frag grenades is an individual model buff and krak grenades are weapons.

Alright, well, fine. I conceed. I guess it does seem silly that one guy having krak 'nades gives them to everyone.

Hi there

concernig the Tankbustas...

Why don't you like them?

Lets look at it this way: Whats the alternative? Right, rokkitz in boyz-mobs. thats 3 bs2 shots at somethig and there is only a tiny chance of you killing it. Whats the price for that? 16p, and you keep a whole mob from runnig/ mowing down infantry.
And what do 'bustas cost? 15! And they have tankhammers, tankbusta-bombs and bomb-squigs! The only disadvantage I can see is the small unit size and the annoying Glory-hogs rule.

I usually field them in a 8-boy squad, with 2 tankhammers and a bp-nob for those annoying morale-check. They work quite well and usually bust a decent amount of vehicles

The alternative to tank bustas are rokkit buggies, which are, without doubt, much better and more price efficient. Bomb squigs, nob and bp all cost extra, so you comparison to rokkit boyz is kind of lacking. You're comparing oranges to apples.

Not to mention thats trying to compare a Fast Attack with an Elite, you cant do that, because they will fill different rolls.

You can do that prefectly fine. You just have to take into consideration which units you can't field, which is about no loss for buggies and a big drawback for tank bustas. Both fill the same role, ranged anti-tank, while boyz with rokkits are no more an anti-tank unit than nobz or a trukk with a rokkit.

Hi everyone,

wanted to put thought to "paper" and say that I really enjoyed the analysis of Ork units provided by the TS.

Tactics articles are by nature, highly subjective and depends on a whole host of variables that cannot be taken conclusively. Many cutting edge lists need certain pre-conditions to perform optimally and the TS was sharing war stories of his own experiences.

I highly doubt anyone would think his words are gospel and will take what they read with a pinch of salt. It did succeed in getting me thinking about how I can tweak my approach to playing my Orks and mix things up.

From that perspective, I think the TS is getting way too much heat for his hard work. We are playing with toy soldiers for fun in any case so let's keep our minds open and our egos checked.

Cheers!

Vick

Jidmah wrote:The alternative to tank bustas are rokkit buggies, which are, without doubt, much better and more price efficient. Bomb squigs, nob and bp all cost extra, so you comparison to rokkit boyz is kind of lacking. You're comparing oranges to apples.

Comparing bustas to rokkit boyz; you still get tankhammers and tb-bombs for 1p less, plus the option for quig

You are missing the point. Boyz with rokkits are not a tank hunting unit. Your argument is that a unit which is meant for tank hunting is better than a unit not meant for tank hunting. Boyz are good against entirely different targets than tank bustas.

In order to show that tank bustas are actually a useful unit, you have to compare them to all units doing a simillar job, not just the worst one. The second worst unit is still not a great one.
Tankbustas still have a 6+ save, same stats as a boy and less bodies. Every unsaved wound kills 15 points, while a wound on a boyz mob kill 6 points. You also can't charge or shoot regular units if a vehicle is in sight and don't have the bodies to stay fearless for long. Unless you can afford to buy them a battlewagon or trukk, they are a waste of points, as buggies, kanz or deff rollas do their job much better.

But you can't spam 45 Strength 8 shots with Boyz either.

Besides I still say you cant compare them to rokkit buggies. Sure they can pop transports, but rokkit buggies are screens/blockers first, with the ability to pop transports. Its not even apples and oranges, itd be close to apples and watermelons IMO

At BS2 the difference between twin-linked and two single shots is less than 12%. A unit of fully kittet out tank bustas will shoot 12 rokkits at the cost of 255 points. Six buggies will shoot the equivalent of 11.7 rokkits for 210 points. Tank bustas will easily die to small arms fire, need a transport and usually can't shoot marine equivalents. You also lose the ability of fielding one unit of burnaz/kommandos/lootaz, with lootaz actually being better if you want to destroy transports. In exchange for all this, you gain the the ability to destroy any vehicle in close combat, which gets better if they ride a vehicle with boarding planks.

Those buggies can always shoot two units, tankbustas only once per game, they are immune to leadership issues and can be used to block/screen stuff. The don't need a transport and can move 12" and still shoot or move 18" flat out. You don't lose anything but a potential second suicide kopta.

The are perfectly comparable, as the whole reason for taking either are those rokkits. Otherwise Wartrakks or Shootabuggies would see much more play. If you field tank bustas, you should carefully check if they actually add anything to your army, as both lootaz and buggies are potential better choices.

Anvildude wrote:But you can't spam 45 Strength 8 shots with Boyz either.

Is there a unit that can?