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Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

Hey Guys,

Part 2 of my Taktica went up on our blog today. It covers, in depth the strengths and weakness of the units in the Elites section of the Ork Codex.

I also covered a few of the questions people had on these forums from my previous piece on Ork HQ's.

Once again comments, criticism and discussion are always welcome!

Thanks again for stopping by and hopefully I can see a few of you next weekend at the Bay Area Open!

14 Trades and counting

http://www.3forint.com

 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






interesting thus far. though as a suggestion... buy a set of AoBR terminators, cut off the head and glue in an ork head... problem solved. it is wysiwyg and you can add bits to make the power fist look like a power claw and even better if you poke holes in the terminator suit to look like the mek took a killed terminator and just stuffed an ork in it without even fixing the hole

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

It was a decent read, but it felt like everything you said, I read already from people that listen to tourny players. Yes Burna boyz in a BW are effective, if used correctly. You cant JUST take a BW with burnas and itll lolstomp anything on the board. Also I didnt much care for you telling your opinion on units youve NEVER used before. MANz arnt as awesome as Nobz in higher point games, that much is true. BUT they are cheaper then pk nobz, they all have PK and a 2+ armor save, and option for a dedicated transport. So in smaller games, OR if you know your opponent has something really tough that needs to die, a MANz missile is your best bet. Again they arnt as competitive as a tooled up Nob mob, but that doesnt mean you should dismiss them.
Same with tankbustas, they are very effective in certain situations as well as being really good at taking out the really hard tanks that Orks struggle with. You want that LR gone? Ive smoked a few LR with my unit already. Hell sometimes the volley of rokkits will stun or immobolize before the tankhammas get to swing. How nice is 6 auto hits at STR10?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/22 13:47:38


 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Nottingham (yay!)

"(Snikrot) has a special rule called Ambush. This lets Snikrot and his unit move on from any table edge when they get called from reserves, and he passes on this ability to any IC that joins his unit."

Is this a general consensus, or confirmed by FAQs?

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Last I checked its not conferred by FAQs, and its pretty divided still. But Im of the opinion that IC do not get the special rule
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




USA

KingCracker wrote:Last I checked its not conferred by FAQs, and its pretty divided still. But Im of the opinion that IC do not get the special rule


From the latest GW Ork FAQ

Q: If an Independent Character on a warbike joins
Snikrot’s unit before the game starts, can they still turn
up using the Ambush special rule? (p62)
A: Yes
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

I stand corrected. I swear youve got to check that damn thing monthly. Ok looks like Ghaz is in then
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






yea. personally i like the mad doc ambushing in with snickrot and 15 komandoes with 2 burnas.. lots of power weaons for a well placed multiassault. give them all cybork and that combined with fnp makes for some dead ard komandoes

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Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

I never thought of Snikrot and Grotsnik. It seems like an interesting combination.


@G00fySmiley: I love the combination!! As far as converting goes, I think I am the only person in the world that can make Ork conversions look bad. Sure they are supposed to look like things are just welded on haphazardly and be as Orky as possible. My conversions still manage to look like gak. I will try to post pics of my "Looted Falcon". It's embarrassing to say the least.

@KingCracker: I only commented on the MANz, Tankbusta's and the Kommandoz to complete the article. I was debating on just covering the Nobz, as it was already a text wall, but the feed back from the last article was that I didn't cover enough. Also it is a bit of a regurgitation, but the idea is that its all in the same place and should be easy for a newer Ork player to find and reference. When I am done with the entirety of the Codex, I will cover popular army builds in my local meta and hopefully have created a very solid repository for 5th edition Orks. There are not a lot of new idea's left for this book, although G00fySmiley just pointed one out to me. Also, if the comments are proving anything to either of us, it is that there are still a few things we can learn from each other.

The goal is to be helpful to players at a competitive level, and I agree that at smaller point games MANz are good, but that is not the intention of the article. I guess I will preface that better moving forward. Again, everyone's feedback is appreciated and I hope that everyone that stops by can take at least a little something away.

Next week, Troops and FA...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 15:22:16


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Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot






I am sorry, but that "tactika" was very poorly compiled. I don't mean any offense, mind you; I am simply offering contsructive criticism.

Any significant 40k advice comes from the experience of the author. It is gleaned from hours upon hours of studying the rules of the game as a whole, as well as the special rules and abilites of the army being discussed. Most importantly, however, all good tacticas have been developed though actual gameplay on the tabletop - a lot of gameplay on the tabletop. Unfortuantely, this is not where your tactics and ideas came from, and you admit as much in your article. You simply compiled ideas from other people.

This a poor way try to guide others, as you can only teach what you actually know, not what you have merely heard others say to be true. Compiling any tactica, while admitting a complete lack of use of the very units you are discussing is very bad form, to say the least.

Go. Read. Study. Play many more games. Then, when your information comes from your own effort and experience you will be able to write a much more thorough and helpful tactica.

Peace.




Edited for spelliing and clarity

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 15:52:58


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Agreed whole heartedly. I wouldnt say I was insulted by your comments on the units you didnt use, but in a small way I guess I was. That would be like if I completely bashed Dodge for their line of pickup trucks and said they were pretty much a useless truck, as Ive never even owned a Dodge. You cant say MegaNobs suck if youve never used them, you cant say that tankbustas are a wasted unit if youve never used them.

Up until a couple months ago I never used tankbustas either. And admittedly I would agree with people that said they werent that great. Then while discussing howI could bring as many rokkits as possible, it was suggested by a DAKKA user "KC you should take tankbustas, they are all about rokkits" and so I did. And you know what? I friggin love tankbustas. A decent volley from them can smoke a combat squad of marines, they can down a MC in a turn, and forget about transports/tanks, they eat those for breakfast. And you cant even say the GloryHogs rule is a terrible rule. So it makes you shoot/assault a tank that they have a LOS with. So in current meta, tanks are everywhere(unless its nids, then they come alive like no other) and chances are good youll be able to move 6 inches, and hit one with a 24 inch shot. And assault one? Why wouldnt you want to do that? Dont you take them.....to hulk smash tanks?


Sorry for venting, because really it is, I just get annoyed when I read articles and clearly the person that wrote them, only has limited knowledge of what they are writing about
   
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Revving Ravenwing Biker




You guys really make great points. No one ever writes analysis without having first hand experience with all aspects of the subject. It's not like humans are capable of comparing things using only their mind or anything. Especially true when you have an organized rules set where everything is assigned a points value, put into a limited number of unit slots and given rules and abilities similar to each other. I really can't see how you could possibly recognized how one unit compares to another, without actually playing a game with them.




 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Actually no, no you cant. You can look at things in the codex and get a general idea of how they work, but until you ACTUALLY play them a few times, not once, not twice, more like 5 times Id say, can you get that honest experience with it. I can tell you on paper, FlashGits are not favorable at all, too costly and can kill themselves.BUT Since Ive used them many times I can tell you from experience, when loaded up correctly and used against the right army, they are terrors on the table. I can tell you, NEVER take them against Nids, its a serious error on your part. Against Tau, they are ok, but boyz/Lootas are a better shooting platform, same with DE/Eldar. But against SM OTOH, now these guys are a good target. If you get a good AP roll, they will just blow away SpaceMarines. 5+ to hit, but since you have more DAKKA, they are assault 2, so double the chance to hit, now youve got 6 or so hits and need 2+ to kill them? Yea thats easy enough. Like all things in Orkdom, if you take more units, they perform even better, and a painboy they are 4+ save 4+ FNP (dont waste points on cybork it makes them too pricey)

So what was your point again? You wouldnt gain that by simply looking at them and then ignorign them. Too many people do that, and then listen to advice from others on the net that do the same thing. That kind of knowledge Id rather not read

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/22 16:21:36


 
   
Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot






Magister187 wrote:You guys really make great points. No one ever writes analysis without having first hand experience with all aspects of the subject. It's not like humans are capable of comparing things using only their mind or anything. Especially true when you have an organized rules set where everything is assigned a points value, put into a limited number of unit slots and given rules and abilities similar to each other. I really can't see how you could possibly recognized how one unit compares to another, without actually playing a game with them.



Your sarcasm is noted.

As for the point you were tying to make: Yes, some people do write analysis w/o any firsthand experience. No, other people do not take these people seriously.

Take, for example, magazines like "Car and Driver". Do you know what makes people respect and buy these magazines? The writers know cars inside and out, but more importatntly, they drive the cars they write about. All respected analysts are experts in their field. They have spent the time becoming one. They do not merely parrot the ideas of others.

This is the point I made to the OP. Become an expert on Orks. Study them, yes, but more importantly play them - all of them. Learn their strengths and weaknesses firsthand. Experiment with them. Then, you can honestly give real advice that will be both reputable and usefull.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/22 16:54:38


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Alerian wrote:This is the point I made to the OP. Become and expert on Orks. Study them, yes, but more importantly play them - all of them. Learn their strengths and weaknesses firsthand. Experiment with them. Then, you can honestly give real advice that will be both reputable and usefull.


Yep. More of this on the forums here would result in less posting, more reading, more eduction, less trash, less static, more interest, a broader spectrum of people being exposed to intelligent conversation, global peace, and GW lowering their prices.

   
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Liche Priest Hierophant






Of course we all know how likely those are.

GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.

If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!

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Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Alerian wrote:
Magister187 wrote:You guys really make great points. No one ever writes analysis without having first hand experience with all aspects of the subject. It's not like humans are capable of comparing things using only their mind or anything. Especially true when you have an organized rules set where everything is assigned a points value, put into a limited number of unit slots and given rules and abilities similar to each other. I really can't see how you could possibly recognized how one unit compares to another, without actually playing a game with them.



Your sarcasm is noted.

As for the point you were tying to make: Yes, some people do write analysis w/o any firsthand experience. No, other people do not take these people seriously.

Take, for example, magazines like "Car and Driver". Do you know what makes people respect and buy these magazines? The writers know cars inside and out, but more importatntly, they drive the cars they write about. All respected analysts are experts in their field. They have spent the time becoming one. They do not merely parrot the ideas of others.

This is the point I made to the OP. Become an expert on Orks. Study them, yes, but more importantly play them - all of them. Learn their strengths and weaknesses firsthand. Experiment with them. Then, you can honestly give real advice that will be both reputable and usefull.


The point I am trying to make is that he DOES have experience with both 40k and Orks. Just because he hasn't used a specific unit does not make his analysis any less fundamentally sound. Now is it less effective then if he had experience, most likely yes (though not necessarily. Experience can create bias as well), but dismissing his entire analysis because he admits to a lack of on the board play is being shortsighted about it. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, like I said if you like his post or not is personal. That is why he writes on a blog he operates, to voice his opinions about these things (or his second hand observations, flawed analysis, witty quips or complete falsities). Ultimately, you should be reading his articles or any articles to open up your own analysis of the topic, not to simply take what it says at face value.



 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

I think my advice is useful, as my advice is geared towards people that play in tournaments.

This is assuming that you are:

1. Playing somewhere between 1500 and 2000 points.
2. Building a take on all comers type of list.

Again, I will add that preface to things going forward. With that in mind, I do not feel the need to discuss all the corner case scenarios for all units vs each different codex. I definitely agree I am not at all qualified to write that, let a lone motivated to attempt it. I do however feel I am qualified to talk about how to play competitively. I have a very good record with my Orks in competitive play and while I don't go around with w/l/d records all over I have won multiple RTTs with Orks and have done very well in league play versus top caliber players. I will not toot my own horn further. Before you accuse of me not having experience, I would at least ask. Your assumptions are Off-base as I am probably close to 100 games played with my Orks in a competitive environment.

In respects to understanding a unit without having have had played it. I think you can gain a very strong understanding of a unit by playing against it. I realize that it is a different perspective, but all perspectives are different. I played against Tankbustas and KIT'ed them around the table with a landraider, and laughed because he couldn't really do anything with the unit and his bomb squigs blew up his own battlewagon. I guess if you have the theme to run as many rokkits as possible they are kings, but that is not a list I would consider a competitive, take on all comers list. I am also up for discussion on that as well, as it sounds like it has potential.



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Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot






Magister187 wrote: Just because he hasn't used a specific unit does not make his analysis any less fundamentally sound.


Yes. Yes, it does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood Lord Soldado wrote:I think my advice is useful, as my advice is geared towards people that play in tournaments.


Then, unfortunately, you have missed the mark.

Again, I am not trying to insult you or your blog. I am simply offering contructive criticim.
There isn't much, if anything, in your tactica that will help a true tourney player. You need to offer advice from extensive play with the entire codex in order to do that. Also, the reader must trust that you have come to your conclusions from your own study and experience, and that you are not merely sharing information that you gleaned on Dakka.

There must be credibility to your blog that comes from experience, plain and simple. Your readers need to know that they can trust that you know (from experience) what you are talking about, since things that look one way on paper often turn out to be very different on the table, especially on a tournament table. Sharing your personal experience in tournements wirh Orks (ie: wins with batreps) is a good way to start building this repore with your readers, as is sharing your experience with each unit and style of list. Your blog does none of that; therefore, it is unreputable and useful to tournament players.

My advice is simple. Take the tactica down, for now. Spend the next month or two playing with all the units you have not tried, as of yet. Try different styles of lists. Attend a few tourneys and take the time to log batreps of the games, using the units that you wish to critique. Finally, post all of this information in a new and revised tactica that is based on your own knowledge and experience, with facts to back it up. Then, you will truely have something that will be of use to other players.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 17:33:39


   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Then you apparently have no idea what the word "Fundamental" means. I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence that a unit can perform well in the most perfect set of circumstances. Purely looking at the underpinning rules/costs/strengths/weaknesses. Those aren't things you need to see in action to understand, they are quite clearly laid out in the codex.



 
   
Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot






Magister187 wrote:Then you apparently have no idea what the word "Fundamental" means. I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence that a unit can perform well in the most perfect set of circumstances. Purely looking at the underpinning rules/costs/strengths/weaknesses. Those aren't things you need to see in action to understand, they are quite clearly laid out in the codex.



What you fail to understand is that experience is fundemental to writing a proper and reputable analysis, whether we are talking about cars, military manuevers, tabletop games, cooking, or anything else. Study is important; but, unless is is coupled with real world experience it does a person little good, and it does nothing for others.

I know that I will not convince you, as the two of you are friends (as can be seen in both of your sigs linking to your new blog). This saddens me, as you are obviously taking this personally, instead of the constuctive criticism that it is intended to be. I am offering real advice that can turn your blog into a meaningful endeavor that can truely be of service to others, and yet you refuse to listen.

I have offered what I can, in order to help. I have nothing to gain here, so I bid this thread adieu.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 17:50:01


   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




And what you are failing to understand is that the broad term experience is indeed important to analysis, and if Soldado or I was analyzing farming, or construction or sailing, I would completely agree he was lacking. But to tell someone with 15 years of experience playing warhammer and multiple tournaments under his belt that he doesn't have experience because he has never used tankbustas is absolutely ludicrous imo.
I have absolutely no issue with you disagreeing with him or not liking his writing or anything, and I actual feel it is far from personal, I merely think the underlying reason for your constructive criticism is flawed to a certain degree and especially misguided.



 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

@Alerian: I don't understand why you think that we at 3forint have no experience. Our blog is new but we are not. Your advice is not constructive. It is assuming we are new players and I am simply copy / pasting which is not the case. All of the things you are asking for in credentials are there, which makes this whole discussion feel more like a troll than anything else.

The part where I said it was "bit of regurgitation" is solely based on the fact that I am not trying to say I was the person that came up with the ideas. I am definitely not the first person to put a PK on a Nob or put Burnas in a wagon. I have added my take on all of the entries and I am speaking from experience of either having used the models or having them used against me. I have played against every unit in the book, and have seen Mega-Nobz come up short enough times to know that they do not belong in a competitive list, nor will they ever show up in my fun list either.

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Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot






The fact is, in your tactica, you give no experience to back up what you say. It is written in such a way to lend no credence to itself. Honestly, it comes off as written by someone who has less than a year of 40k experience.

This leads to the question: Why did I think you have a lack of experience?

Because that is how your tactica reads. Don't blame the reader for your lack of communication. If you have experience, then it is your job to share that with the readers and convince us that you have a relevant point of view. It is the writer's job to give credibility to his writing with facts, data, and personal experience (ie: tourney results, batreps, etc.). You failed to do so with your current tactica.

Also, to be a complete tactica, it must include relevant and experiential information about everything you wish to cover. If you want to write a tactica on all Ork eilte choices then you need to have experience, facts, and data with which to present ALL of the choices, in order to give a fair and unbiased assesment of them.

Please, take another look at my suggestions of how to lend credence to what you say, this time with an open mind, and I am sure that you will see ways to vastly improve your blog and help your readers at the same time. There is always room for more good, concise, and helpfull gaming information; however, incomplete, cluttered, and unhelpfull information only breeds ignorance within the gaming community.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

I am at a loss to express what you are saying, but I do understand what you are saying.

I really hate it when people try to make themselves sound more important than they are, and in honesty the platform of internet blogging is a medium will always suffer in comparison to people that have a physical medium, especially a corporate medium.

People have to start somewhere, if it is in Car and Driver or on the net, we all have a beginning and this is my beginning at writing. I do appreciate your perspective, but I do not favor the writing style of writing about me first and the topic second. I think in time that my readers will respect me more for that.

I will however make a conscious effort to add the simple facts of my experience to the articles.

Again, its a learning experience.

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its an interesting read thus far, agree with some stuff disagree with others. it in the end all boiled down to the players, I run MANZ missiles alot even in competitive games but they are nto the easiest thing to field. they are not for a beginner same with tank hunters. but they can have their place when executed correctly

The reason I love the ork codex is how diverse it it, you can do alot of things with it. you can play a precision army where you can dominate the field, but one mistake will lose you the game much like eldar, or you can make simple lists where the margin for error is much more forgiving but they are often less effective. I feel you are leaning people towards the latter and for good reason,

somebody reading your tactica will likely end up with kan wall or speed freaks, and there is nothing wrong with that, at least that seems to be the direction I see it going in. Both are solid tactics both will win games and both are fairly easy to use.

One of the things i dislike about taktica in general is when they rate units as bad or good. were i to write a tactica I would describe ways to utilize a unit, the weaknesses of a unit and probably a few examples of how to best use the unit in different situations. it'd be long and probably take a full entry per unit with some units taking multiple parts like nobz. I see why you wouldn't want to do it like that, as it'd take forever to finish

giving one or a few paragraphs as you are currently doing is fine and fast but you will no matter what you do get criticism for giving not enough , too much, incomplete, plain bad, or brilliant information by people. often about the same exact statement that is what happens when you get a large community like dakka reading your stuff. heck look at replies s views on your thread

that said take all criticism into account but write your taktica how you want, and be happy with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/22 19:45:27


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Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

G00fySmiley wrote:

giving one or a few paragraphs as you are currently doing is fine and fast but you will no matter what you do get criticism for giving not enough , too much, incomplete, plain bad, or brilliant information by people. often about the same exact statement that is what happens when you get a large community like dakka reading your stuff. heck look at replies s views on your thread

that said take all criticism into account but write your taktica how you want, and be happy with it.


In the end that is my goal, but I also really do want to make my writing better. I am obviously not an English major so I do take all advice given to me seriously and I am definitely more of an Ork than an Elf in real life. With that said, ideas to help my articles be better are always welcome, and I do appreciate everything that has been said here. I have idea on how to apply a lot of what has been discussed today to future articles.

I want to make sure I maintain my personal integrity and style while doing my best to please my readers. I am sure that finding that balance will be something that takes me the rest of this lifetime.

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Los Angeles, CA

Soldado, let me give you some advice. You should just aim to be more like me. That would improve your blogging skills 100%!


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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Los Angeles

Would it make me the internet best sportsman???

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Los Angeles, CA

Well, then you would have to usurp me. And we can't be having that!


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