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Lobukia wrote: Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

"Nice paint job, I wish i had that much free time to work on my guys"
"Could you give me a quick run down of whats what"
"Lets roll to see who goes first"

SSsilverskullSS wrote:its nothing personal its just that, he chose a black templar army, so he should use their codex

I didn't realise collecting black space men meant i couldn't use them as grey space men. My bad.

Most of the responses in this thread are just plain slowed.

Paint =/= Army , especially in Ard Boyz. The only time that argument can be made is if it's a hardcore theme tournament, which again Ard Boyz is not.

You also have to consider that this "space wolves" army would probably be the only painted space wolves army in the tourney...

Let him play!

Do it to it. WYSIWYG works fine with me.

Marines are marines are marines are marines. They might have long fangs instead of devastators, ride wolves instead of bikes, and be blue/grey instead of black/tan, but there is no problem with a count as WYSIWYG army. Paint job and fiddly bits have no bearing on what codex I can play.

I personally have a chapter I made myself and run them as vanilla marines, but there is no rule that says I can't run them as SW, BT, or BA if I so choose.

To be picky against your opponent's army simply because it is painted like a different over powered space god army is to be TFG.

-cgmckenze

Seeing as the 'problem' could be solved with a can of gray spray paint, I'd have no problem with it. Sure, it must annoy xenos players they can't codex hop quite so easily, but that's life.

I don't see how this is even a question.

"They are a successor chapter of the Space Wolves who just happen to look like Black Templars. Crazy, huh?" for those who are REALY nitpicky.

Next thing you know, the count-as Deathwing army I'm doing with CSM Termies is going to be a problem.

i would have no problem with this at all, the same wy i dont have a problem that my friend wanted to used a metal model Tiger tank as a land raider, he told me its options and its about the same size, if he cant afford to buy a land raider then its not a problem, the same way a marine play mighht only be able to afford one bunch of marines, not 20

For me personally if it's:

1) Cool
2) WYSIWYG
3) Not blatantly modelling for advantage

Then get those dice out and lets go

Really, I'd have no problem with it. He's probably had those models for a while now, and I wouldn't make him buy a whole new army with the price hikes just to see how the new army plays.

In your theoretical. 'Ard boyz game, they could be grey plastic, but they have to be WYSIWYG. One of the bonuses of playing the emperor's chosen is that you can play the ultradarkgreybloodfisttemplarmanderwolves.

I'd have no problem with it, but you should tell him he's still able to compete with Templars. We have a guy in our local circuit who regularly takes 1st and 2nd in tournaments at 2k and 2500 playing Black Templars.

I'd play him but I'd keep hinting at how despicable I consider it to claim that you're a dedicated Templars player while jumping to the Space Wolf Codex when the Black Templars Codex is perfectly competitive. I don't have anything against people who want to play with a stronger Codex, but when they spout the "oh, I'm actually dedicated to this or that Chapter" when they've just gone for the easy way I become, for lack of a better word, infuriated. Especially as I play Black Templars myself.

I would say they were more Invested in a certain chapter.

Just a case of GW brainwashing you into having multiple armies of the same space marine models.

For me, what I would do in the OP's scenario is relative to the situation. I might roll my eyes if this happened at a tournament, but at the end of the day, I'd rather play against a beautifully painted BT army, controlled by a decent fellow using SW rules any day of the week as opposed to to a win-at-all-costs gamer using a crappy painted blood angels army, which happens to be the correct codex color.

On the other hand, I'd have more respect for the guy if he played his army as 'Black Templars,' regardless of competitiveness, and found a way to win as such.

Clearly this is awhy i dont compete in aRd boys. I prefer tournis where there is comp, painting and sportsmanship. Last ard boys i was in there was a bunch of termis being fielded without any heads, unpainted armies etc. I feel like people who buy marines and play them as whatever codex they feel like at the time, need to just figure out what they like and stick too it. This is not based on any real reasoning. its just how i feel.

As long as everything is clear and obvious, I don't care. It's a great idea till BT get a new book.

According to the fluff, it angers the Machine Spirit to change the paint on vehicles and armor. There are lots of Chapters that use battlefield pickups that have their original paint on them. They even touch the paint up, just to make sure. The more active Chapters probably look like they have patchwork armor. A pauldron from a Blood Angel here, an elbow from a Dark Angel there. Ultramarines driving in a Salamander tank (with the proper Ultramarine weapons, of course). Eventually the vehicle would have more and more symbols put on it by the crew, but the original chapter's colors would still be there in some way.

I run my Dark Angels as Vanilla Marines all the time so I can use the new vehicles the DA couldn't use, like my original Razorback with the Lascannon/Plasma guns and my original Thudd gun. I use the regular Space Marine codex, of course because a bolter is a bolter is a bolter.

Wolves players seem to be pretty touchy about such things, as acknowledging that they have the best codex in the game at the moment appears to be something they don't enjoy doing, but, honestly? I can see the rationale behind using Space Wolves to represent Black Templars. If you don't take a Rune Priest, you have an army that's quite functional in close combat, with powerful melee-oriented leaders, and, geez, what's more knightly than cavalry?

OMG,

BT counts as TWC



dammit, now I want a new army

SSsilverskullSS wrote:its nothing personal its just that, he chose a black templar army, so he should use their codex

What if he chose Space Wolves but just painted them like the Black Templar, never bringing up the fact that he used a Black Templar army before.

Called them "Shadow Wolves" or something like that, his own made up Successor Chapter. Would that have bothered you?

SO i could use my eldar to play as my dark eldar? it just dosn't seem 'Fair' to all the rest of the players IMO

Brother SRM wrote:"Oh, a counts-as army. Okay, everything's WYSIWYG? Cool, let's play."

Sounds about right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheWildHost wrote:SO i could use my eldar to play as my dark eldar? it just dosn't seem 'Fair' to all the rest of the players IMO

If your eldar all had splinter rifles and other such dark eldar weaponry, sure!

Lobukia wrote:Player at Ard Boyz begins pulling out his Black Templar army... arranges everything in nice neat squads of ten, pulls out drop pods, razorbacks, etc...

Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

What do you do?

What do you say?

Extremely relevant to a local scenario for me, but I need some honest outside opinions on how to deal with this issue.

Thanks in advance guys, you rock!

The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

Alazahr wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Player at Ard Boyz begins pulling out his Black Templar army... arranges everything in nice neat squads of ten, pulls out drop pods, razorbacks, etc...

Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

What do you do?

What do you say?

Extremely relevant to a local scenario for me, but I need some honest outside opinions on how to deal with this issue.

Thanks in advance guys, you rock!

The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

+1 to this.

Alazahr wrote:

The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

First of all, I don't play BT (see my sig), so lets get past that now.

Also, Ard Boyz rules are clear for SM, paint, or lack thereof, has no bearing on a codex or a list. WYSIWYG is defined as pertaining to equipment, not color.

You have all given me much to think about, and I thank you for your replies. I run a young club and several of the members want to try some "unorthodox" practices for their first Ard Boyz, and I want them to be aware of how their/my actions will be perceived... I just didn't honestly know what that perception was, so I came here to find out. Thank you

Since no one cares about the codexes and plays willy-nilly with the counts-as rule, sure fine, whatever. At least he showed up to Ard Boyz with a painted army...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Since no one cares about the codexes and plays willy-nilly with the counts-as rule, sure fine, whatever. At least he showed up to Ard Boyz with a painted army...

Does my Blood Angels successor have to be red? Does my Dark Angels successor have to be green? What if I use Vulkan in an army that isn't painted like Salamanders, or Lysander in one that's not bright yellow?

One PA armor loyalist for another is pretty straight forward at 'Ard Boyz.

Taking it to the next step- What if someone used rubber bands to attach death wing termies to dreadnoughts, and replaced the dreadnaught arms with bloodthirster ones with storm bolters hastily glued on to make a trio of naked dread knights?