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I could come up with a silly plot that justifies why Space Wolves would suddenly dress up as Black Templars.

Space Wolves disguised as Black Templar!? The person who came up with that idea must be some kind of tactical geni-



CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Indiges wrote:One PA armor loyalist for another is pretty straight forward at 'Ard Boyz.

Taking it to the next step- What if someone used rubber bands to attach death wing termies to dreadnoughts, and replaced the dreadnaught arms with bloodthirster ones with storm bolters hastily glued on to make a trio of naked dread knights?

I think I'd allow this conversion. /joking Seriously, a Dreadnought w/ Bloodthirster CC Weapons? Yeah... It better be Khorne CSM.

-J.

Whenever I see this happen, I always feel like my generosity is being abused a little bit. I'll politely play against such an opponent, but I don't find this move to be in the spirit of good sportsmanship - it just smacks of min-maxing to me. It also seems to put an undue burden on the person playing against the counts-as army, as it seems the WYSIWYG is never as cut and dried as you might like.

But, I am still playing the Dark Angels codex despite repeated suggestions that I switch to Codex: Space Wolves, so I may have a personal interest here.

They're marines, and they're not 'out there' as far as weaponry goes like GK are. I'd play them. If this is worth throwing a hissy fit over, then I can throw a fit because you're using Eldrad in your Saim-hann painted Eldar army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwoolf wrote:Whenever I see this happen, I always feel like my generosity is being abused a little bit. I'll politely play against such an opponent, but I don't find this move to be in the spirit of good sportsmanship - it just smacks of min-maxing to me. It also seems to put an undue burden on the person playing against the counts-as army, as it seems the WYSIWYG is never as cut and dried as you might like.

But it can be. Don't stereotype and judge each situation on a case by base basis. OP says that in this case WYSIWYG works for this army, so it does. I seldom see a marine army that's WYSIWYG, even when it's painted what it's supposed to be. That's just how it goes sometimes.

But, I am still playing the Dark Angels codex despite repeated suggestions that I switch to Codex: Space Wolves, so I may have a personal interest here.

Not sure what kind of DA you play, but it's probably about as good as SW right now, especially with the Storm Shield update.

I see that many people agree that its okay to interchange codexes between loyalists, but what about csm, I love their models but their codex is pretty lacking and any competitve list is pretty boring/static. If a person modeled csm as wysiwyg and used a loyalist codex would that be a problem. In terms of fluff I think it would fit considering there have been a few chapters to go renegade since the heresy, it doesn't make sense that they some how lost the use of their landspeeders, thundershields, razorbacks, drop pods, ect... just by going chaos.

if your CSM were all WYSIWYG that it would be all good. you could just say they are recently turned renagade and still have all their old equipment.

I hope people don't find problems with that. My Relictors sternguard are modeled as wearing pieces of CSM armor. Also, if you're not using cult troops, basically the only difference between CSM and SM is gear. Why would they toss away their Storm Shields and start using worse storm bolters?

daedalus wrote:
Not sure what kind of DA you play, but it's probably about as good as SW right now, especially with the Storm Shield update.

Wait what? No, just no. Viable? Yes. On-par with Space Wolves? Not a chance.

daedalus wrote:I hope people don't find problems with that. My Relictors sternguard are modeled as wearing pieces of CSM armor. Also, if you're not using cult troops, basically the only difference between CSM and SM is gear. Why would they toss away their Storm Shields and start using worse storm bolters?

maybe the chapter only had tactical terminators

Sure, but then they take their storm bolters and switch them to 'twin-linked bolter' mode? I can't think of a single situation that would be advantageous in.

TL-bolters are actually better within 12" cause you get 2 TL shots.

but the poster was thinking of using the Vanilla Codex and CSM models so its all a moot point.

Grey Templar wrote:TL-bolters are actually better within 12" cause you get 2 TL shots.

but the poster was thinking of using the Vanilla Codex and CSM models so its all a moot point.

Yea pretty much, though one could make the argument for SW codex as well as possible dark angels codex (space wolves who turned and sided with Huron at the wolf of fenris incident and Fallen Angels). Other codexes are a bit of a stretch, has anyone heard of BA or BT turned chaos?

Spartan089 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:TL-bolters are actually better within 12" cause you get 2 TL shots.

but the poster was thinking of using the Vanilla Codex and CSM models so its all a moot point.

Yea pretty much, though one could make the argument for SW codex as well as possible dark angels codex (space wolves who turned and sided with Huron at the wolf of fenris incident and Fallen Angels). Other codexes are a bit of a stretch, has anyone heard of BA or BT turned chaos?

Grey Knights supposedly are the only Chapter from which no Marine ever turned. By implications, all others have had to contend with that.

As far as Blood Angels are concerned, we know at least that successors like the Knights of Blood turned renegade. Black Templars are Imperial Fist by geneseed, so you'd be looking the way of Soul Drinkers and their like.

My only problem with MEQ armies and "counts as" and "WYSIWYG" is that they are not playing as what they are intended to be.

If he was running them as vanilla marines, then I would have no problem with that. But if he wants to play them as Space Wolves, then he should buy space wolf models, or have reasonably similar models and paint schemes.

I felt the same way concerning Eldar armies, back when they had the ability to do something similar. If you want to run the army, then the models and paint scheme should have some basis and rationale in the fluff. They don't have to be exact, but there has to be a reasonable ratinale for why they are different. "My army sux and this one is better" is not sufficient to be justifiable, IMHO.

Particularly with 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where there is no painting requirement...

This wouldn't bother me. What would bother me is if the player got annoyed every time I asked him what each unit was. Because I would be doing that throughout the game.

I think this is not a player issue but a game issue. GW is to blame for this. I feel sorry for people who put alot of time into an army that they feel is competitive only to see that change completely. Each new edition of 40k should be followed by updated armies. Balance can never be achieved across every army, but you would like to see each army be somewhat competitive.

Lobukia wrote:
Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

Painted miniatures at 'Ard Boys? This travesty should not exist.

Lobukia wrote:
What do you do?

Take a big sledgehammer and smash his abominable army to pieces.

Lobukia wrote:
What do you say?

Look, over there, they sell GW products. Go over there and get yourself a grey-plastic-tide like everybody else. If I ever catch you again going for an advantage in upstarting your fellow competitiors with this filthy and unsporting "I-am-better-than-though, I-paint-my-minis"-strategy I will personally report you to GWs 40K-Inquisition.

^^^win

I would not be surprised if GW offered you a job under "customer management" if you were serious.

Eldanar wrote:My only problem with MEQ armies and "counts as" and "WYSIWYG" is that they are not playing as what they are intended to be.

If he was running them as vanilla marines, then I would have no problem with that. But if he wants to play them as Space Wolves, then he should buy space wolf models, or have reasonably similar models and paint schemes.

I felt the same way concerning Eldar armies, back when they had the ability to do something similar. If you want to run the army, then the models and paint scheme should have some basis and rationale in the fluff. They don't have to be exact, but there has to be a reasonable ratinale for why they are different. "My army sux and this one is better" is not sufficient to be justifiable, IMHO.

Particularly with 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where there is no painting requirement...

WYSIWYG doesn't apply to color. There's really no way it could, with a few of the variant codices having successors listed in the books themselves. Not all BA successors are red, not all DA successors are green. GW has also shown us that chapter iconography can get recycled - see Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists, for one of the more prominent examples.

yeah, a person is perfectly entitled to like the BT look and appearence, but like the Space Wolf rules.


at least the army is fully painted to a good standard.

Spartan089 wrote:I see that many people agree that its okay to interchange codexes between loyalists, but what about csm, I love their models but their codex is pretty lacking and any competitve list is pretty boring/static. If a person modeled csm as wysiwyg and used a loyalist codex would that be a problem. In terms of fluff I think it would fit considering there have been a few chapters to go renegade since the heresy, it doesn't make sense that they some how lost the use of their landspeeders, thundershields, razorbacks, drop pods, ect... just by going chaos.

Not so much a problem if they're "per-heresy". Then again I suppose the complaint can come that they wouldn't be in per-heresy armor... I've wanted a per-heresy Emperor's Children army for a long while now...

-J.

In principle I wouldn't have a problem with this if it meant getting a game or not, but to be honest if you've picked an army you should man up and battle with them - not start to wimp out if things start getting tough. Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

Seaward wrote:

Eldanar wrote:My only problem with MEQ armies and "counts as" and "WYSIWYG" is that they are not playing as what they are intended to be.

If he was running them as vanilla marines, then I would have no problem with that. But if he wants to play them as Space Wolves, then he should buy space wolf models, or have reasonably similar models and paint schemes.

I felt the same way concerning Eldar armies, back when they had the ability to do something similar. If you want to run the army, then the models and paint scheme should have some basis and rationale in the fluff. They don't have to be exact, but there has to be a reasonable ratinale for why they are different. "My army sux and this one is better" is not sufficient to be justifiable, IMHO.

Particularly with 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where there is no painting requirement...

WYSIWYG doesn't apply to color. There's really no way it could, with a few of the variant codices having successors listed in the books themselves. Not all BA successors are red, not all DA successors are green. GW has also shown us that chapter iconography can get recycled - see Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists, for one of the more prominent examples.

I understand that. My comments concerning the WYSIWYG reference were geared more to the inevitable "my chaplain on a bike is really a wolflord on a wolf..."

To me it would be no different than playing an 'Ard Boyz game against an unpainted army, sure I would wish it was painted or painted with an appropriate scheme but it doesn't have to be. Especially if everything is WYSIWYG

monkeyh wrote:In principle I wouldn't have a problem with this if it meant getting a game or not, but to be honest if you've picked an army you should man up and battle with them - not start to wimp out if things start getting tough. Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

This is a far more direct version of my position.

I think that having an army modelled as a Canon chapter, but played as a different one, is allowable, but pretty confusing to opponents.

On the other hand, it's ridiculous to ask a person to build the same model (power armor, bolters, rhinos), but with different bling.

I think if there's a place for it, it's Ard Boys.

monkeyh wrote:Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

Totally not your call to "Let him off this time" or any other time. This is a tournament. The TO is letting him use it. Sit it out and get a zero for that round if you want.

If the missile launchers look like missile launchers, and the power fists look like power fists, it makes zero difference if they're painted like blood angels, black templars, Ultramarines, or whatever. He is free to play them as Space Wolves.

The problem is 100% yours.

monkeyh wrote:In principle I wouldn't have a problem with this if it meant getting a game or not, but to be honest if you've picked an army you should man up and battle with them - not start to wimp out if things start getting tough. Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

Where do you draw the line? What if someone has space wolf models, but dislikes the colors and painted theirs yellow? What if they kitbashed stuff to come up with a more unique army?

"Your army doesn't have enough beards and is slightly too blue and not enough blue-grey. I forbid you the Space Wolf codex and demand that you use the Space Marine codex, swine."

If everything is clear enough, I'd play him. Specially if they're well painted

It still doesn't make it any less of a problem for that guy. If you don't want to play a guy with a Black Templars painted Space Wolves army then it's your decision, I personally agree to an extent. I would, simply because it's Ard' Boys, but in a tournament that requires fully painted and completed armies then no, I wouldn't. Black Templars have their own codex, don't paint them is Black and White if you think it can't compete, or simply don't come to the tournament. Space Wolves have their own models, using counts as simply because he wants to win, despite apparently loving his Black Templars so much, doesn't sit right with me.